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Listen Riot, it's high time you start acknowledging about Karma or delete her whole

Evenstar··11 votes·1,313 views

Karma

  • 4 years of silence, with very poor communication.

  • Acknowledged as a very touchy champion, that her kit has issues and is bland and lacks direction.

  • Barely provided any context for balance decisions.

  • High up there with the category of Unfinished Reworks, with ample of time to set the record straight but never taking any actions to do so.

  • On and off work on her, one corner you have a new Karma skin, the other corner you have Splash Art updates, and in another corner you think Karma could do some working on before all of that.

  • On one hand thinks she's marvelous as a Jack of all trades, yet on the other saying she needs a niche/subclass, and on other subsequent champions saying no one can be a Jack and be good at all stuffs

  • Ranging from gameplay to design, art and skins, practically everyone in Riot is accused of having a dislike for her, because no one wants to openly discuss about her. And every time there's a discussion going on, it leads to nowhere. The common tone "We'd like to know what you think about her", "It could be possible she'll receive an update during a class or Ionian update" is predictable. You think about the future but have no concrete plans about the champion, nothing I've seen or heard thus far has been concrete.

It's really about time y'all really NEED to address Karma's issue. This isn't a blind threat, but you guys really got to just start talking about Karma like she's your Ahri or Vayne or Cassiopeia/Syndra for at least 2 patches or one season so that the player base stops getting the impression that you abhor her. And you guys need to really be there to speak about her, instead of having a random red to pop in to speak on behalf of the big guys.

And believe me so, every time you roll out a small balance change to Karma, it gets the playerbase talking again. It'll repeat over and over. And just because the reds ignore them or that other players downvote them, it doesn't mean they gave up. It just means they're well aware of how many repeated times you've messed up a mistake that you've been so much time to address and fix.

27 Comments

Doseqis3 votes

She is above average to average in ranking and it's the meta of ranged poke/sustain supports making her strong.

Her kit has obvious weaknesses and strengths and i don't see any point in changing her, she sits at a 50% in solo que anyways

SilverSquid5 votes

Karma's problem isn't her winrate, it's her lack of identity or direction and Riot's blind decisions making her continuously worse. If she was still like she had been after her rework, I wouldn't even mind that much.

But with every change in the last 2+ years I facepalm harder.

Vanjie2 votes

Let's leave a champion that was intended to be played as a mid laner, be bottlenecked as a support. Will let her do tons of damage early on, but don't bother building any AP items. Build those nifty new shield items because Karma is all about the shields and helping her teammates out mid to late game. No kills for you, sorry!

Her damage falls off mid to late game, she becomes a one click champion with E+R mid to late game, she has no identity, most of her kit takes elements from other things in the game, she can go tanky and heal herself to max health, her kit is bland, her visual update was rushed, she has no running animation, she has a horrible VO, she has no character or personality, and cannot get any work done on her besides an insane numbers buff that gets nerfed 4 to 5 months later. Let me tell you that a ridiculous numbers buff no one asked for is not going to prove to me or any other Karma main that she is "above average". Get over yourself.

TheHappyReaperz3 votes

I see literally nothing wrong with Karma. There are champs who are actually garbage tier, and there are champs who are OP. Balancing those should be Riot's focus, not working on Karma until the impossible to please Karma mains are happy.

Vanjie3 votes

She has serious problems. Karma is garbage tier compared to other champions. Her damage falls off mid to late game, she becomes a one click champion with E+R mid to late game, she has no identity, most of her kit takes elements from other things in the game, she can go tanky and heal herself to max health, her kit is bland, her visual update was rushed, she has no running animation, she has a horrible VO, she has no character or personality, and cannot get any work done on her besides an insane numbers buff that gets nerfed 4 to 5 months later.

So let me ask you, TheHappyReaperz, why are you coming into this thread that is to address problems with Karma? You are in this thread to derail any progress because YOU feel it is necessary to bring us down. If Riot had not messed around with her to begin with, we would not be in this mess right now. Karma mains would not have to wait 4 years to ask for some communication and work to be done on a champion that Riot refuses to do 0 work on. How can anything be impossible to please us when Riot has done NOTHING to fix her real problems.

Get over yourself, you imbecile.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

For the love of all that is, was, and shouldn't be, refer to me as Happy. My father was TheHappyReaperz, I merely inherited the title. Now, to address the issues you bring up.

Karma is garbage tier compared to other champs: This statement is pointless. It is a vague claim that attributes nothing to your argument, as you have no evidence to support it, and give no actual comparison between champions.

Her damage falls off mid to late game: That depends. If your talking about Karma mid, I'll refer you to this: This If you are talking about Karma support, then I shall take the breif moment to say, "No shit, Sherlock". If you're a support, who isn't building damage, you don't do damage. That's pretty self-explanatory.

She becomes a one click champion with E + R mid to late game: Are you telling me the only thing Karma is good for late game is shields? She doesn't, you know, use her CC, or zone? At all? She just literally sits there and waits for her R to come off CD, so she can go *R + E, (not E + R, and you say I don't know how to play the cham)? That's stupid. That is, in itself, a gross oversimplification of what Karma does.

She has no identity: She doesn't? Are you sure? She just sits there, has no identify quotes or anything? Nothing about how she's the only champ in League to be based off the founder of Buddhism? How about her identity as the most enlightened being in all of Ionia, a place with people who control blades with their minds, and talking monkeys? No, its not the same as her old lore as, which was, correct me if I'm wrong, a fan-wielding chick, who liked to meditate. Gameplay-wise she has the longest root in the game, that's right, take that Morgana! And she has one of the most distinctive abilities in the game, in her R + E combo.

Most of her kit take elements from other things in the game: You mean Riot used the tech they had to make a champion? Whose kit did she steal from exactly? The most common one I see Karma players complain about how her and Heimers ult are so similar. How? They each buff their abilities with their ults, but that's like saying Karthus and Cassiopea are the same, because there Qs do the same thing.

She can go tanky and heal herself to full health: So, someone found a new and inventive way to play a champ, and its a bad thing? Alright, I can see why that could be broken, but in that case its a balance issue, not a Karma issue. Think of Tank Yasuo, Lane Push Nasus, AP Tryndamere. They are all unique spins on a champions playstyle, and if they were broken they were nerfed in a way that prevented, or tried to prevent them, without harming the overall health of the champion.

Her kit is bland: That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. For more information on this topic, please refer to my previous answer on your previous comment, "She has no identity".

Her visual update was rushed: Personally, I like the current Karma model. It looks quite spiritual, and combines serenity with force. However, I'll refer you to this: "The biggest change to keep in mind this time around however is the long awaited rework of Karma." That is an exact quote from Patch 3.5, the patch which launched the rework.

She has no running animation: Neither does Aatrox. Budum tsh.

She has a horrible VO: That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, there isn't much difference, for example this: Another This Honestly, there isn't much difference between the two VO's.

She has no character or personality: Please, next time you scold someone for disagreeing with you, don't give the same piece of evidence three different times. It really detracts from your argument.

Cannot get any work done on her besides an insane numbers buff that gets nerfed 4 to 5 months later: This is funny, because as I write this, there are Karma changes on the PBE. Regardless, what do you mean she can't get any work done on her? She was the first champ to ever have a full VGU.

So let me ask you Berfu, do you have any actual logic to throw at me, giving me a real argument? Or are you just in this thread to shit-post? I am here to prevent needless work, because I feel there are other things that are far more necessary. Karma was changed, let it go. If she isn't the same champ you liked playing, then play something else. Riot has done numerous things with Karma, and she is featured in two of their prominent skin lines, Snowdown and Warden.

Get over yourself. Seriously. You have a self-entitlement problem.

Sincerely,

Happy, the Reaper.

SilverSquid7 votes

Her problems aren't that much gameplay related. It's more stuff like this

  • High skillfloor, low skillceiling - the opposite of good design
  • She should be a battlemage/enchanter, yet Riot pushed an artillery and disruptor identity onto her, proving they have no idea where to put her.
  • They put mantra-level based damage and utility into her rework, because they understood that if it scaled with base levels it would lead to an uneven use of mantra.... and for 2 years now made mantra abilities scale stronger with base abilities again, contradicting themselves again.
  • Karma's scalings are all over the place. There is no optimal build and any build neglects at least one part of her kit.
  • Karma's most unique feature is a buffed Heimer ult that at most works like Talisman+Locket.

I could provide you with more information, but maybe this is enough to give you a basic understanding of the kind of things going wrong for her. It's not gameplay health, but design mistakes and communication issues.

Maybe it is impossible to please all Karma mains, because we are so diverse. But I know a ton of Karma mains, who ask for very simple things, which would already make them happy. Like a unique dance, and not half of Shen's. Or shieldbomb back - or at least an explanation why it was a good idea to strip a champion of their most iconic damage spell after 4 years of having it, to buff a passive nobody likes about her. Because I honestly don't get it.

Evenstar5 votes

I agree with you that there are other champions out there that are complete bollocks, and Karma happens to be one of them. Being garbage wasn't what the rework intended to cause, but the reds failing to address Karma's faults and carried their heads high past rework even when 90% of the player base were providing feedback was what cause Karma to fall in to the garbage tier.

4 years ago, Karma was probably "making it". But that was 4 years ago, 4 years now, she went back to being garbage. And I don't necessarily mean "Look, Karma sits at a 50% win rate, she's not garbage."

More of, "Look, Karma's rework had potholes in it. Back in 2013, it was cutting it. Now in 2016, close to 2017, she's barely making it again". I think we have to be fair, there were 4 years for Riot to prioritize a garbage champion for rework. Riot made their choice about who to work on that 4 years too. So it's not a question whose deserving of a rework anymore. It's a bit promising the kind of quality rework that the team intended any champions to have.

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

There are champions with identity problems right now, which is bad because-- and bear with me here-- they tend to be less fun to play on the whole (and probably lose more as a result of confused presence in compositions). There are also champions who are antiquated and come from a different time in need of updates.

Karma's not really either of those things. She has a tendency to flourish as opposed to underperform which is basically a blessing with the constant fights over champs like Vayne and Lee Sin.

Vanjie4 votes

Are you dumb? She has an identity problem. She is either a poke mage, a shield bot, a tank, a battlemage, artillery mage, support . . . . w/e she is. What the heck is Karma? That is an identity problem. Her damage shifts into pure utility and shields mid to late game. Don't try to put Karam in the realm of Lee Sin or Vayne. We know who they are and what they do. Karma does too many things without actually doing anything but pressing one button.

Don't comment on Karma thread to highlight other champions.

Players press just one button mid to late game with Karma. Karma is a shield bot sine she offers nothing else to the game.

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

I'm pretty sure any Karma trying to just press one button would be sad. Hyperbole is cute, and maybe a bit telling, but it doesn't help your point. It buries it in pointless rhetoric.

I'll comment on whatever thread with whatever I like. And until you make the rules, that's just going to be something you have to live with. Furthermore, I wasn't comparing her to Vayne or Lee Sin; I was identifying that those champions are generally put under hard scrutiny and are generally statistically guilty of higher winrates (which would suggest balance erring in their favour, a very bad thing-- this does not seem to be Karma's issue).

Her identity is lacking as a support, but she's got solid poke and her shield isn't the worst or anything. How she uses her ult defines her presence (or should) in teamfights. Do players want her to feel more of a support, more of a mage, or retain the path in the middle that she currently has? What would more strongly identify her in-between (which seems in line with the character)?

Why are you so angry? If no reds are replying, it's probably because all your discourse is aggressive and targeting the players you're talking to rather than what changes would actually benefit Karma-- I won't bother making suggestions since I don't know that she's in such dire need, but I can see changes to her CC or something being constructive.

If all your commenting is going to serve is to describe why you think everyone else is wrong, that's all anyone's going to see. That's not a discussion about Karma, that's a discussion about players. Comment on Karma and her state within the game.

If you just press one button as Karma, I might have an explanation as to why you feel her identity to be as terribly weak as you accuse.

Evenstar1 votes

Oh... there's a misunderstanding between the both of you, and the your first post with my original post.

I don't necessarily mean Karma needs to be discussed as if in Lee Sin or Vayne's case, wherein they are often subjected to scrutiny. I am referring to the fact that the reds should make more attempts to discuss Karma like Lee Sin or Vayne, as they are both widely regarded as player favorites. It need not be in a scenario where she has to be under scrutiny to be mentioned.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

That would be a pretty fair point although what happens more with Lee Sin and Vayne (according to all the statistics I see) is that they bring concepts that are difficult for the casual playerbase to wrestle with. In reality, Vayne has some substantial range problems and lacks in CC that's reliable. Lee Sin can have issues with consistency and lacks hard CC outside of his ult.

What I was trying to stress was that Karma has issues with her identity, yes. But there are bigger offenders and outliers, and already Riot's reverted a change they made (Kog'maw). They've set their focuses-- that is to say, on Warwick-- and I would personally rather see them tackle Mordekaiser in full before Karma. Karma may identify poorly, but she does not underperform. It's a pity for her prospects, yes, but underperformers should always come first unless they just can't figure anything out-- then it shouldn't be forced, but deliberated upon.

Evenstar1 votes

You sir, are a very sophisticated gentleman.

Unfortunately, I would have to disagree that they have no idea of what should be done about her. I do see your point though, but we have to be fair and acknowledge that for the past 4 years, many players have been sharing vital information on how Karma could and should be addressed in a healthy manner.

Sadly, these feedback were not taken seriously by the reds. I wouldn't say we are forcing a Karma rework to happen NOW, as a matter of fact, no kind Karma soul intends for her to be sandwiched between or before a WW/Galio update. The Karma rework has been requested a few days in to the release of her new rework, and it only has been vocal this year thanks to kind and persistent individuals like SilverSquid who has had the courage and patience to deal with Karma rework requests. But the general tone has been around as early as her rework days, and many voices have come and gone in view of the reds ignoring them.

It feels selfish to say that Karma should be prioritized soon, but it is a very realistic portrayal of the champion's condition. I think the players would have been kinder had Riot been very vocal about her just as how they did when Ao Shin (now Aurelion Sol) was teased. On and off, someone would ask how the development for Ao Shin went and a reliable Red would pop in to discuss. With Karma, this was hardly the case, and eventually causing the misconception that they are trying very hard to avoid Karma, this has brought several players (like Berfu) to an aggressive tone but with good intentions.

The reds themselves have driven up the Karma players to a wall and past the breaking point, and they themselves allowed the problem to snowball in to the serious issues that is going on today. I think any players would not like for that happen but speaking from a fair point, these Karma players have been very exhausted and worn out.

Sir Fuzzi4 votes

I guess I haven't ever invested in her as a main which would change my perspective a lot. I can see where you're coming from, but I never played her pre-rework; I have read up on it and it sounded like a much more interesting, if dangerous gameplay angle (making her support weave her in and out of combat innately). I have always wondered what it would be like to have a combat support.

I can sympathize when you put it that way, that she's been gradually getting buffed away into a generic caster slot, with nothing terribly defining about her, nor anything terribly conducive for her identity; her ult defining her presence in fights is more of a fact than an identity in this scope, and should have more intricate interactions if it's going to be so strong. But it probably only feels weak because her kit keeps her in mid-range but her strengths for her team lie elsewhere. Definitively putting her at long-range or emphasizing her presence as mid-range through different means might make her more interesting or rewarding, as well as lending to a more adaptable identity.

It's just that I think there are far worse offenders who dip below that sacred 50% winrate and probably garner more attention from Riot. They also tend to look more strictly at higher-level play and how that's panning out. Things seem to be coming to attention again for Karma, though, and Warwick is bound to be in our near future. Karma could be a very likely next candidate after that, although I'd still prefer they put Mordekaiser first. I feel like he's in the same rut, where he demands a play that doesn't satisfy the power fantasy. It sounds like that's where Karma sits.

Evenstar2 votes

Seconding you on that. Karma sits on a spot like Morderkaiser, but with a bigger red sign over her head because her issue has been glaring and ongoing for years. It's players like you whom the community needs for a much more peaceful discussion. And this is what Karma players have been trying to carry across for many years. Sadly, the current player base behaves like a bunch of reddit users who downvote and derogate opinions at first read.

I'd be more happy to speak in a much more diplomatic tone if we ended up getting discussions like yours. Berfu might sound harsh, but he means well. And quite honestly, I myself get exhausted and worn out when I speak about Karma. Silver is the only guy in the entire league I've seen whose been very persistent at his work with her.

I cannot offer any consolation about Morde beyond that he is just as problematic as Karma. But understand that Riot has a bad habit of letting things snowball before addressing an issue again. And this is on their part, they have a lot of problems outside of Karma's rework, incl. Mordekaiser, and the severity of these issues shouldn't be minimized or magnified. Everyone's favorite champion deserves equal attention and work and if that isn't achieved, it's Riot's fault.

Calabok2 votes

she's fine. She has a nice walk.

Vanjie2 votes

No she is not fine. Well, she doesn't have a running animation.

MisterShameless1 votes

He wasn't being serious, he was making the joke about her not having a running animation lol

Vanjie2 votes

I love how everyone else comes into a thread to tell us we are wrong and that Karma is an amazing, fully conceptualized champion with great lore, art, and a kit that is so original in the game it makes her stand out. if you are coming into this thread to derail any conversation, be gone. No one wants to here how you dumb logic thinks Vayne has no identity over Karma. Get out of here, you green monkeyed fool. You have not played Karma at all and you don't understand. Let me address the problems for you imbeciles that main other champions and do not play Karma at all, but want to come into this thread to derail conversation.

Her damage falls off mid to late game, she becomes a one click champion with E+R mid to late game, she has no identity, most of her kit takes elements from other things in the game, she can go tanky and heal herself to max health, her kit is bland, her visual update was rushed, she has no running animation, she has a horrible VO, she has no character or personality, and cannot get any work done on her besides an insane numbers buff that gets nerfed 4 to 5 months later.

TheOvermind1 votes

Perhaps a good way to tell if a champion is complete as a whole ; in terms of lore, art/ visuals, VO, abilities and gameplay niche is to imagine if riot were to put that said champion in one of their gameplay demo/ trailers, like "a new dawn" .

The characters that appear on those videos , all have very defined character and riot can portray them doing something unique that describes them; like nocturne vs ryze , darius , katarina and nautilus vs ahri , graves and Leona.

Imagine if riot where to put karma in one of those! Holy shit would that suck. No one cares about karma because no one can relate about what she actually does or what she excels at . What she got going for her. She got nothing and that doesn't allow her to be a memorable character.

Those problems need to be solved I order for her to achieve uniqueness and become a memorable champion in league.

Evenstar1 votes

I doubt putting Karma in a video would happen anytime soon, but I honestly could see them making Karma poster girl alongside Ahri tbh. Maybe not poster girl, but a crowd favorite would be enough.

Nik Nikerson1 votes

My favorite part of the boards are Karma players and their shared persecution complex.

Evenstar1 votes

It's not intentional, but it's hard not to think that way when the reds are avoiding the topic of her.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

There are champs in worse spots than her.

At least I see her somewhat regularly in games, unlike champs like Aatrox or Azir or Kalista.

She'll get her time.

Evenstar1 votes

"Her time" remains to be seen. But thank you, one thing I've noticed is how more and more players are becoming informed and aware that Karma has issues. Usually, by the 5th reply, we'd be seeing hateful replies. But the general tone right here is that other champions need to be prioritized, but all agree that Karma has issues.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Well, to be fair I always thought of her as a support mage that could go mid if she wanted with her seemingly super high base damage. (Getting chunked at lvl 1-2 from range botlane isn't fun. X_X)

But then again I started this February, so my view is more of what a newer player sees her.

I see her as an Ionian leader, one that found her inner strength to defeat Noxian invaders after her pacifist village was almost ransacked by them.

Her kit fits this as well. The shields, the heals, the speed ups, the poke. She wants to be in the front line, inspiring (get it?) her troops into battle.

But that's how I see her with no knowledge of her old lore, in fact I wasn't aware in the slightest that she had a identity crisis.

So thanks for the infomation.

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