@Balance Team, you can keep increasing Karma's values and it won't solve the problem

Evenstar··63 votes·4,707 views

On 5.10, the idea was to buff her late game. On 6.6 PBE notes, the idea was STILL to buff her late game.

This means y'all are highly aware 5.10's changes did not accomplish what it set out to do. Without even buffing RQ, you have realized RQ is the only thing Karma likes to use at late game. Contextual changes for RW have proven that no matter how much you try to increase its overall value, RW is still an unsatisfying spell to use while RE has proven to be much more likeable when it dealt damage.

What's funnier? The fact that on these two occasions, RQ was left untouched and the entire focus went to making RE/RW better.

What's the intended message? Your changes to Karma are not effectively doing it's job.

Karma needs better tools and reliable damage at her disposal, which is something she lacks.

You can ignore our discussions regarding Karma all day, assign Rick to do same thing over and over again ie: supercharging her ratios and values, and Karma will still feel unsatisfying to play and even moreso thematically bland with each changes you roll out.

At .8 ratio, she has the beefiest shield in league, if not for a short duration. Allowing her to have 1.1 ratio is unnecessary because it will bring about complains and problems in the long run. You are only reducing the presence of counterplay in the scenario when Karma uses Defiance, simply because 1.1 ratio is simply too big a value and will lead to long term frustration.

Learn to look at Old Karma's .8 ratio shield for 5 seconds. You do not need 1.1 ratio to be a better shield.

There are many ways you can help Karma achieve that late game fantasy, but as long as you let Rick charge up numbers, that's not gonna happen. It's better off for you to assign different members to work on Karma, because Rick can only do so much. You are dealing with one of the champions that you know the least, and continue rolling out these changes will serve to upset half of the playerbase.

104 Comments

Keti12 votes

She's already horrifyingly strong in top lane. The idea of buffing her really scares me.

Oerba No Naja4 votes

how much time you have to play against a karma top ? compared to Nautilus Fiora Rammus she is far away from " op meta wow "

Hawkefire3 votes

Honestly she is a sleeper pick top lane atm. Very few top layers can actually do anything to karma

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

I don't understand all the Karma hate for her kit being boring. I love RW at max CDR since it is close to a 6 second root (double root almost since W is up soonish).

EcchiOtakuTM8 votes

Because pre-rework karma was more fun, the W change was good though the rest, not so much.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

"Fun" is an opinion and can say I played a bit of both (more new than old) and definitely like new Karma more than the old one since it is not nearly "how hard can I outstat my opponent?" She offers more utility now than before imo and is on par with Lulu (and in some cases superior to her).

EcchiOtakuTM3 votes

The only good thing about new karma is her tether the rest was better on old karma.

Hinagiku331 votes

{quoted}

Honestly she is a sleeper pick top lane atm. Very few top layers can actually do anything to ranged mages in general

FTFY

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Karma has self peel and provides utility that most "ranged Mages in general" have. You don't see Viktor top because he dies the second someone gets near him whereas Karma has a speedboost (she doesn't have to spend 2000 gold for), a root, and a slow to keep melees off of her. Send Viktor, Orianna, Annie, or any other "ranged mage in general" and you will see that the SECOND your opponent gets on you you WILL die or burn flash.

Steven Mcburn8 votes

Karma was way more fun and interactive before the changes.

Seriously, I loved old karma top. You could bait so many crazy plays by just losing health then suddenly bursting way beyond what people expected. Having somewhere around 70 ap at level 2 and absolutely crushing someones hopes and dreams with a mantra'd shield into a mantra'd fan-wave-thing was the most satisfying way to really use her kit that was basically balanced around being on a razors edge of uncertainty. If I wait to mantra nuke this guy will I live after? Is it worth it? It was super fun.

That being said, new Karma is actually one of the stronger picks, particularly in this meta. She can take top or mid, her shield scales incredibly well and can very well stop assassin-burst, she has ridiculous poke and a snare, and she absolutely destroys a lot of the people being played in both top and mid lanes.

If they truly are changing her, or anything on her kit, and it makes it off PBE then riot's balance team is just lost. Karma has never been a super popular champion, there's nothing wrong with that, being unpopular isn't the same thing as being weak.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

The primary issue to old Karma was that her kit was too strong when coupled with bruiser allies and her learning curve to fight her was really really aggravating.

The best way to play against Karma was to chip away at her until 60~70% health then all-in her.

She was super punishing of people who traded health -- even favorably against her -- since she would hit harder, heal more, and shield more.

Being 50% vs a 20% health Karma tended to not be advantageous since the next trade if you didn't outright burst her would result in your death.

She had the same problem Irelia's E has, she punished minor advantages and forced you to either go for big advantages or try ignoring her in lane. While enabling Irelia's stun is dangerous, giving Karma a huge AP boost was catastrophically dumb.

Additionally, having AoE % health sustain on her Q that scaled with AP just... was hilarious if she had bruiser/tank allies since she could literally heal them an insane amount, and that was before Spirit Visage was made slot efficient.

Voluug131 votes

The best way to play against Karma was to chip away at her until 60~70% health then all-in her.

The best way to fight Karma was poke, sustain and range because her ranges sucked aside from wasting RE on minions, which was easily fixeable.

She was super punishing of people who traded health -- even favorably against her -- since she would hit harder, heal more, and shield more.

You mean she was a counterpick, like basicaly 75%+ of the rooster? Karma couldn't do anything to CC and range since she didnt have mobility or range.

Additionally, having AoE % health sustain on her Q that scaled with AP just... was hilarious if she had bruiser/tank allies since she could literally heal them an insane amount, and that was before Spirit Visage was made slot efficient.

There were and are way more strong things. And it was limited by being both Mantra and a short range ability.

Literally the only way Karma was any kind of ''OP'' was if you were a squishy melee that depended on snowball kills. Her passive was the less needed and most binary part of her kit, but Its existance was never a valid reason for a full scale rework of THAT size. They just wanted her Frontline Mage identity out because of the meta they enforced months after. Think Karma couldn't have been used against Zed/Fizz/Talon in midlane? She could have stomped their melee dive burst into the ground with RE and RQ. Athenes, Abyssal, GG melee assassins. Also because Morello has blabantly hated anything that wasnt LCSPLAYS since back then, admitting he hated utility supports or anything that was more of a life saver that kill getter.

masc dom top7 votes

what she needs is an identity not number buffs. If they keep buffing her she'll just become Lux 2.0 later on.

Droogzy6 votes

Honestly, her problem is really a broken identity.

Pre rework Karma was exactly that: Karma, you can use your spells offensively or defensively based on the situation, that was the whole central idea of her kit. From the onset of the her rework, it was clear she was very lackluster: All she was in late game is a Q bot.

Bring that back the ying yang notion, and suddenly you have a strong spot to start with in making Karma an ideal pick that is not based on stat checks because that's what she is now.

I know rework revertion complaints are so old, but its the reality of the problem with Karma, her rework was just...terrible, I would say one of the worst ones I've seen, not because its not viable, but because her kit literally doesn't make sense from a thematic standpoint anymore and made a kit that consisted of making thoughtful choices into a pretty braindead kit 90% of all gameplay decision calls for R-Q. That's never a good sign of a good rework.

Maybe second maybe to Cassiopeia, but she'd only take the top spot because Riot's attitude and blatant we don't give a shit about her approach is what really made it go so bad.

She had an identity before centered around duality, now she doesn't and Lulu's kit's focus a lot around defense v.s. offense, look at how popular she is.

Kassimila5 votes

Oh, ok in that case. Why do you believe Karma needs buffing in the first place? She's crazy strong.

IxtaliKing18 votes

Imma slide in here again, he's basically saying buffs aren't what she needs, it's an identity. She needs to be more distinct, because at the moment she isn't and it's causing riot to have to keep buffing her to keep her relevant.

Kassimila3 votes

I'm not quite sure what that means. She has sick poke, AOE shield/speed buff, and a root. If I was going to change anything about her it would be A.) More skins, and B.) Less cooldown on Mantra since she doesn't get an ult.

IxtaliKing10 votes

To someone who isn't really a Karma player it's not so easy to understand. Just imagine your favourite champ being diluted to the point where their kit is a simplified generalist kit with all its fun and unique elements stripped.

Abyssphere10 votes

{quoted}

I'm not quite sure what that means. She has sick poke, AOE shield/speed buff, and a root. If I was going to change anything about her it would be A.) More skins, and B.) Less cooldown on Mantra since she doesn't get an ult.

The AOE shield/speed buff is the only really unique thing she has. "Sick poke" isn't really a niche because there are champions who are better at that, and roots aren't uncommon.

Karma's supposed to be able to do a bit of everything but it does mean you rarely get a team comp where you think "Karma would be ideal here!". Even her poke doesn't really provide her a niche because you're better off using someone like Xerath who actually has a chance at hitting the backline.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I treat her like a hyper aggro Soraka. She can spam the fuck out of that shield in a teamfight to keep people alive and the speed boost helps teams roam across the map.

Also that AOE shield/speed buff is really fucking good, esp if you want to run a comp w/ no hard initiator.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

May as well take Sona then. Or Lux/Morg with item 3069

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Not sure how much Sona can spam her spells in comparison to Karma. Karma also has a lot safer harass than Sona.

Also if you go down the coin route w/ Lux/Morg then you miss out on some early dmg and you don't get spooky ghosts. If you see your team comp would be baller w/ an AoE shield speed then just pick Karma and you still get to build dmg.

Voluug132 votes

Karma also has a lot safer harass than Sona.

Sona's can go through minions, which in botlane are the best defense. Karma needs to find the appropiate angle, which put her into way more danger.

If you see your team comp would be baller w/ an AoE shield speed then just pick Karma and you still get to build dmg.

If your team comp has high amounts of engage, you might as well pick an engage tank support that Karma.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Sona has to get right next to them to harass. If that doesn't sound like "put her into way more danger" then I don't know what is. Karma can snipe from a distance.

"If your team comp has high amounts of engage" Why would a team w/ high amounts of engage need an AoE speed boost?

Voluug131 votes

Sona has to get right next to them to harass. If that doesn't sound like "put her into way more danger" then I don't know what is. Karma can snipe from a distance.

Except most engages in botlane are blocked by minions. Braum Thresh Blitzcrank Bard Lux TahmKench Morgana Nautilus

While Karma's Q is so easily predicatable and blockeable by minions that it isnt funny. The adc can stand behind their minions all day and you will never be able to hit a full RQ. Aso for Karma, RQ needs either a massive positionement enemy error or CC to make champions eat the full ability, and W is extremely risky to use against basically anyone in botlane.

"If your team comp has high amounts of engage" Why would a team w/ high amounts of engage need an AoE speed boost?

IDK, you said ''a baller team'' which for me means an engage team.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

"Except most engages in botlane are blocked by minions." You say engages but you can't factor out trades. Also some of those people your brought up (I assume as a counter-point) have harass and moves that travel through minions. Have you seen the AoE of RQ? I have no idea where you are getting all of these "massive error" bullshit things but it is incredibly easy to land unless they are giving you mad respect. W is risky but RW heals 40% of your missing health sooooooooo that's pretty fucking good.

And reread my "baller" comment cuz you misread it. If you are still confused go ahead and say so and I'll clear things up for you.

elon wątroba1 votes

They should do class rework for: Karma Nami Sona Lulu

IxtaliKing6 votes

Problem is Karma isn't in their class, she's with Morgana and Orianna

Voluug131 votes

Exactly, trying to lump her as a support goes against her identity of a supporty mage first, she is not an AP support.

IxtaliKing3 votes

I think it's because a lot of players don't really get what utility mages are, they see utility and just think "support!".

ahferroin73 votes

And then get stomped by solo lane Lulu...

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

{quoted}

Imma slide in here again, he's basically saying buffs aren't what she needs, it's an identity. She needs to be more distinct, because at the moment she isn't and it's causing riot to have to keep buffing her to keep her relevant.

I mean people say that but she seems to kind of have a distinct play pattern to me especially as supports go? And her team shield is pretty nice for outputs

IxtaliKing4 votes

People say that because it's the truth, unfortunately. Her RE can be replicated with items on champs who have real ults, so not even that is unique to her. Her play pattern is similar to Lulu's, but Lulu is widely considered to be better at what they do, so she's not really distinct as a support. In her actual class Morgana is better at protecting carries and locking targets down, and Orianna is alot more impactful and distinct in general.

Vistha Kai14 votes

Practically she has one damage spell and exactly zero theme to her kit.

There is also no reason to pick her (with that one exception of uber chase combo with Sivir and Shurelia's some time ago), regardless of her numbers.

What Karma needs is a revert of those idiotic changes, like removing damage from RE aka the Shieldbomb aka the Last-Thematic-Remnant-of-Karma.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

She is a ranged lane bully with a powerful kit for roaming.

Vistha Kai3 votes

She's a lane bully that can be completely neutered by simply standing behind a minion.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Do you know her Q is AoE?

Vistha Kai2 votes

Do you know her Q stops at the first target hit?

It takes an oblivious person for Karma to become a "lane bully". Alternatively being melee, but even then it's not certain.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Yeah, it stops at the first target hit.

And is AoE.

So what happens if they are standing next to a minion that you hit w/ Q?

Vistha Kai2 votes

They get hit, because they refuse to respect enemy's champion.

Also there are countless champions with AoE that either pass through minions or outright appears at the target location.

Do you call, say, Orianna a lane bully simply because she has AoE abilities?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Well she certainly can lane bully now can't she? Have you seen Orianna played in tournaments?

Voluug131 votes

If I can lane bully with Janna doesnt mean Janna is a prime lane bully.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Last I checked Orianna can huck that ball around for little cost and good dmg, bring it back to herself for a shield, and her passive increases the dmg of her AA w/ each hit. Sounds like a good lane bully to me.

Voluug131 votes

Orianna can only bully if you are a melee and suck and trading back.

Her ball's damage is extremely reliant on not touching any minion or it loses a LOT of damage.

Her AA and spell range is pretty short compared to the rest of midlaners, so she is only a good bully against Fizz and bad Talons.

Zed is why more of a lane bully that Orianna, and is why he is so problematic.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

"Orianna can only bully if you are a melee and suck and trading back."

You got math to back that up? It's not all about range.

Tobias Brackner4 votes

Karma has sick dmg in lane, awesome sustain in teamfights, and is a really strong roamer. She can move an entire team across the map incredibly quickly. The reason why people don't do this more often is beyond me.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

She seems stupid-good at carrying low elo games against certain teams. She's better than Naut support.

Cosmic Warper5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QVa5UIgq,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-03-09T22:09:30.760+0000)

Karma has sick dmg in lane, awesome sustain in teamfights, and is a really strong roamer. She can move an entire team across the map incredibly quickly. The reason why people don't do this more often is beyond me.

Probably because she's really boring to play :/ Her kit is so generalist that there's not really much interactivity packed into it. Her old kit (before the double rework) had the whole duality concept down packed, even if it wasn't the best. This karma basically just upgrades her abilities with her R and that's it. There's nothing extra. You still use the abilities in exactly the same fashion as pre-R press.

DarkRitual1 votes

Just replace the chain spell. It's already existing on other champs whose kits are in decent spots. This would open up room for a new spell which can fix her issues.

Tobias Brackner3 votes

I like the chain spell. Helps keep people in place when they try to run away. Also I've seen it Mantra'd on mid Karma and it's nastyyy

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