Is another season of League of Assassins really necessary?

Yenn··43 votes·11,655 views

Assassins currently have a 75.6% pick rate above Diamond at mid lane in NA. There are only three non-assassin champions over 5% pick rate, those being Vladimir, Yasuo, and Syndra, with Vladimir being played as a late game assassin. If you look at the champions just below 5%, they're all heavy burst champions; i.e. assassin-like damage without the mobility.

The reason for this is pretty obvious: assassins are too strong when the game is both early focused and damage is so high. They generally fall off hard once late game hits, but with the current pacing, you'll rarely ever see it reach late game, and being able to effectively roam in an early meta is a necessity.

With assassins being dominant, the entire caster class is pushed out of the game. If you want to compete in mid lane, you're forced to play assassins, because the only mid laners who can deal with them are other assassins, or off-meta counter picks like bruisers. You can't duel them and you can't follow roams effectively, for fear of them turning on you, and if they get slightly ahead, they'll just snowball off of you due to caster itemization issues (i.e. you can't viably build a defensive first item in high elo games) and offense out-scaling defense.

This meta is not fun, and we've had to sit through this for way too long. Can we please move on to a meta that rewards decision making, macro play, etc. and doesn't just revolve around one shotting your opponent before they can react? Even just making changes to reduce the pick rate of assassins would be amazing.

74 Comments

WoonStruck17 votes

Okay, I agree with you, especially in regards to akali, qiyana, and kat diamond+, but lets be real about defensive itemization.

Offense has always outscaled defense.

The problem now is that being defensive no longer has power spikes, and gets HEAVILY outscaled to the point where defense is usually only helpful to retain a lead rather than to hold out for one, especially since a lot of defensive itemization includes damage now, meaning that if you're ahead you will usually deal the same or slightly more than your opponent while being significantly tankier, where if you're behind and build defensive, you deal less and might be just as tanky as your opponent if they didnt build defensively.

Oh, and another BIG thing: you used to require LW or void staff to outscale defensive builds, unlike now where you can usually brute force kills even without.

RyzeRework3 votes

Hmmm that would be true execpt hourglass is one of the strongest items and can counter ad assassins and spell sheilds counter ap assassins heavily. So 2 really good defensive options that make assassinations difficult

Yenn8 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm that would be true execpt hourglass is one of the strongest items and can counter ad assassins and spell sheilds counter ap assassins heavily. So 2 really good defensive options that make assassinations difficult

Neither of these items are viable as a first item, and the only AP assassin countered by spell shield is Fizz.

Most casters need a mana item as their first item. Hourglass doesn't provide enough AP to wave clear, so even if you do rush it, you'll end up with terrible CS because you're leaving the minions with a sliver of health, and it's usually unsafe to get into auto range of an assassin.

And aside from that, even if you do counter the assassin in lane, the assassin will just roam and take advantage of your inability to follow; making your Hourglass rush relatively useless, because the champion you built it to counter isn't interacting with you, and as an added bonus, you're struggling to push the turret because you don't have enough AP or mana.

RyzeRework2 votes

Both of those are extremely viable. Maybe that's why you having a hard time vs assassins. If your playing zed and you build a duskblade its negated by the seekers arm guard completely. The armor is more then enough to cancel the lethality. The problem is people just want to stack damage and dont care about the defensive options because everyone wants to do the most damage. Give it a try.

Yenn4 votes

{quoted}

Both of those are extremely viable. Maybe that's why you having a hard time vs assassins. If your playing zed and you build a duskblade its negated by the seekers arm guard completely. The armor is more then enough to cancel the lethality. The problem is people just want to stack damage and dont care about the defensive options because everyone wants to do the most damage. Give it a try.

First item win rate for Hourglass on various casters at Diamond+:

Vel'koz: 46.2% Lux: 45.1% Neeko: 43.1% Veigar: 39.8% Annie: 50.1% Xerath: 45.0% Azir: 45.8% Viktor: 43.7%

If you look at their statistics vs. Zed, who is most countered by Hourglass, you see the same thing. Vel'koz has a 44.8% win rate vs. Zed with first item Hourglass and a 50% win rate with first item Ludens. Lux has a 47.4% win rate vs. Zed with first item Hourglass and a 50.7% win rate with first item Ludens.

It's not viable and statistics prove it. Defensive items are not worth rushing, because you're better off killing your opponent before they kill you. The idea that an Hourglass or Veil rush is a good idea is a low elo phenomenon; your team will usually think you're trolling if you do it at Diamond+.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

First item win rate for Hourglass on various casters at Diamond+:

Vel'koz: 46.2% Lux: 45.1% Neeko: 43.1% Veigar: 39.8% Annie: 50.1% Xerath: 45.0% Azir: 45.8% Viktor: 43.7%

If you look at their statistics vs. Zed, who is most countered by Hourglass, you see the same thing. Vel'koz has a 44.8% win rate vs. Zed with first item Hourglass and a 50% win rate with first item Ludens. Lux has a 47.4% win rate vs. Zed with first item Hourglass and a 50.7% win rate with first item Ludens.

It's not viable and statistics prove it. Defensive items are not worth rushing, because you're better off killing your opponent before they kill you. The idea that an Hourglass or Veil rush is a good idea is a low elo phenomenon; your team will usually think you're trolling if you do it at Diamond+.

Or it's because people buy these first when they're already losing and not when the lane's still neutral or better.

RyzeRework2 votes

So you took a small sample size to prove your argument is valid? Okay I'll bite. Poppy is broken because she has a 80 percent winrate in challenger this making poppy the best midlane in the game

CuddleAndCookies2 votes

Sure he is not completely right - like some can just build item 3802 and more, but you just do a classic dodge. Diamond+ is not small it is top 1.43%, be it skill or just raw number for 100k just on season start.

Each {zed vs some mage] has more games in one days, than the sum of all games for Poppy in mid-lane in Chall... For Master+ even..

Given there she is picked as a nice d-move into some three champions.

RyzeRework1 votes

1 percent of the entire league pop is such a small sample size no?

CuddleAndCookies3 votes

No one says it gives you accurate number, it gives you a overview and trends. Few hundred/ thousand games of a match-up is enough.

If that not enough for you, then I guess people even playing some 3-5k games in ranked is too small sample size to give them any rank too...

And give rare scientific studies and polls have participant count even close to that, they too should be dismissed.

RyzeRework1 votes

Hmmm still no difference the fact that hourglass has one of the highest winrate items in the game.

CuddleAndCookies3 votes

Good? Yes. But the highest? There is like 40-50 items with win-rates better with slight change over divisions and over time.

RyzeRework2 votes

How come hourglass has almost a 60 percent winrate when built? And also the difference is you build hourglass first when your behind and ludens first when your ahead. You should probably take into account ludens is a win more item while hourglass is a your behind so you have to be safe item

CuddleAndCookies1 votes

Hourglass has global win-rate of~ 53% and 54% in diamond+

Fun fact vs Zed Hourglass is 52% - general & Diamond+

Or did you mistake it with item 3026, then you would be right...

RyzeRework1 votes

Once again your taking a small sample size of diamons plus you have to look at it at a hole considering most people are playing plat and lower

CuddleAndCookies3 votes

I gave you both global and Diamond+, high skill level and average across all ranks. Diamond+ is there to show what it is like for in hand of high skill players.

RyzeRework1 votes

2 weeks into the season. Nice data gathering. You could also be using a website that uses a small sample size of games on top of that

CuddleAndCookies3 votes

Thousands of games for specific case and millions of games for general ones just from the start of s10 ranked.. small and insignificant.. Sure just 2 weeks... Can someone give you more for s10? Time-travel?

Or you can be a person, who cares little for the stats, data and other people opinion if it does not reinforce your own views.. So why I even reply...

Hibeki1 votes

Hourglass however is usually built second or third, because the item is just flat out overpowered as an active. It makes champs who are ahead impossible to kill and champs who are behind more annoying to kill.

The thigh guy8 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I agree with you, especially in regards to akali, qiyana, and kat diamond+, but lets be real about defensive itemization.

Offense has always outscaled defense.

The problem now is that being defensive no longer has power spikes, and gets HEAVILY outscaled to the point where defense is usually only helpful to retain a lead rather than to hold out for one, especially since a lot of defensive itemization includes damage now, meaning that if you're ahead you will usually deal the same or slightly more than your opponent while being significantly tankier, where if you're behind and build defensive, you deal less and might be just as tanky as your opponent if they didnt build defensively.

Oh, and another BIG thing: you used to require LW or void staff to outscale defensive builds, unlike now where you can usually brute force kills even without.

Yes. Defense should and does get outscaled by offense. The issue it that offense outscales defense at a component item now.

There is litteraly a 5 minute window where defense is slightly better than offense.

XJ999999999999992 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I agree with you, especially in regards to akali, qiyana, and kat diamond+, but lets be real about defensive itemization.

Offense has always outscaled defense.

The problem now is that being defensive no longer has power spikes, and gets HEAVILY outscaled to the point where defense is usually only helpful to retain a lead rather than to hold out for one, especially since a lot of defensive itemization includes damage now, meaning that if you're ahead you will usually deal the same or slightly more than your opponent while being significantly tankier, where if you're behind and build defensive, you deal less and might be just as tanky as your opponent if they didnt build defensively.

Oh, and another BIG thing: you used to require LW or void staff to outscale defensive builds, unlike now where you can usually brute force kills even without.

void staff and the armor pen equiv used to not do as much % pen. we also didnt have as many pen items. i remember when the only flat pen item was ghostblade.

tank items keep getting nerfed, and the HP/AD "tank" items are too broken, and never nerfed.

Śhunpo9 votes

Just revert Runes Reforged, we never really had an assassin problem back then (at least after they fixed the monstrosity that was the assassin update).

Leetri3 votes

Season 3 favoured assassins big time and the boards can't stop jerking off about how amazing Season 3 was.

Kiwi Lemonade4 votes

I usually hear S5. I personally liked S5 and then S7 most

Śhunpo7 votes

No? We had a Black Cleaver problem and a Kassadin problem, not an assassin problem.

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=catch this work,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-01-21T14:49:47.424+0000)

Just revert Runes Reforged, we never really had an assassin problem back then (at least after they fixed the monstrosity that was the assassin update).

Literally not true. Season 6 preseason had like 15 minute games regularly.

Śhunpo2 votes

If that's what you think about Season 6 I don't think you were playing during that time as games averaged between 20-30 minutes.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=catch this work,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2020-01-22T02:03:46.939+0000)

If that's what you think about Season 6 I don't think you were playing during that time as games averaged between 20-30 minutes.

I said PRESEASON 6 for starters.

Secondly, games averaged 25 minutes once Riot toned the pacing back a bit and the boards wouldn't stop bitching about it for years. I played 1k games a season since season 5. I know how you guys are.

Frozen Ink2 votes

you didnt say preseason 6, you said only season 6

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Ink,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-22T03:45:53.190+0000)

you didnt say preseason 6, you said only season 6

{quoted}

Literally not true. Season 6 preseason had like 15 minute games regularly.

?

Śhunpo1 votes

He edited his comment. Don't bother with this guy.

Śhunpo2 votes

Even if you DID say preseason 6, WHICH YOU DIDN'T (you edited your response it seems) then that's most certainly not a good case to base your points off of.

Preseasons always have shorter game lengths as there's usually something extremely IMBA that you cannot counterplay or lacks counterplay (like release Zoe and release Electrocute) or in the case of preseason 8, increases damage immensely.

Once the season actually started games were actually rather long as tanks were still go-to picks for most lanes (besides mid). You'd know this if you actually played in season 6 and you were being truthful.

Prior to the assassin update damage was actually rather low (outside of Rengar and Talon), so we saw more games where players had the option to actually scale and not be oneshot every respawn unless they hyperfed someone, and by hyperfed I mean someone got to be 20/0 by 15-20 min.

"...and the boards wouldn't stop bitching about it for years."

Where's your proof of this? I'd reeeeaaally like to see this since you seem to know how players think like the back of your hand.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=catch this work,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=00050001000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-22T07:54:37.511+0000)

Where's your proof of this? I'd reeeeaaally like to see this since you seem to know how players think like the back of your hand.

Why would I dignify this with dirty work when you can't even read my posts correctly? You go search old forum posts to see how people felt about this game back then. I was here back in the days of Thunderlord's Decree and Warlord's Bloodlust just like I'm here now with Runes Reforged. I know about it. You don't. That's just how it's gonna be.

RainXBlade1 votes

From a balancing standpoint, this would be the appropriate thing to do to (potentially) fix the game.

The problem with this is that Runes Reforged is essentially a money dump. Riot invested a lot of resources in developing this new rune system. Instantly scraping it would effectively mean that they wasted a lot of money.

Then again; it's Riot. They're a small "indie" company that doesn't make anything above $10M. /s

Śhunpo1 votes

Oh boy, they lose money for scrapping an idea that is ruining the game, what a tragic loss for a company that is now in the top 5 most profitable gaming corporations to date.

Riot actually NEEDS to admit they're wrong more often, as that's what the main turnoff of this game is, the devs refuse to remain inclusive with the playerbase; they're like a store's staff but they all have this attitude of "Oh, you're the customer? I can't be nice to you because some of you are rude and might possibly murder me".

Krynnˉ8 votes

Assassins have always have had an insanely high pick rate. It doesn't mean they are good, they are just the most popular class in the game. Champions like Nautilus, Leona, and Janna are REALLY good in the META and shut a lot of Assassins down. Bruisers are also very popular and can easily duel assassins. You also have champions like Ezreal, Kai'Sa, and Xayah who have really high play rates and can also shut down assassins because they are slippery (Especially Kai'Sa since she can build Zhonya's and Ezreal because he can go Ninja Tabi with Iceborn Gauntlet).

Essentially, assassins have a high pick rate because people find these champions fun to play, and aren't picked because they are super broken with zero counterplay.

Yenn8 votes

{quoted}

Assassins have always have had an insanely high pick rate. It doesn't mean they are good, they are just the most popular class in the game. Champions like Nautilus, Leona, and Janna are REALLY good in the META and shut a lot of Assassins down. Bruisers are also very popular and can easily duel assassins. You also have champions like Ezreal, Kai'Sa, and Xayah who have really high play rates and can also shut down assassins because they are slippery (Especially Kai'Sa since she can build Zhonya's and Ezreal because he can go Ninja Tabi with Iceborn Gauntlet).

Essentially, assassins have a high pick rate because people find these champions fun to play, and aren't picked because they are super broken with zero counterplay.

Going to hard disagree with you. People at Diamond+ don't pick champions because they're 'fun to play,' we pick champions who are most likely to win. And with an early-focused meta, which we've had for the past two seasons, assassins out-perform casters across the board.

Krynnˉ3 votes

Eh, Diamond is also the elo that has a ridiculously high ratio of one-tricks that got there with mostly mechanics but lack in micro to climb any higher. So they're are quite a few people playing champions like Wukong who isn't very good champion but they play them because it's the only champion they can play at a Diamond level.

Śhunpo3 votes

Bruisers aren't that great, but I agree with the rest of what's said here.

xelaker4 votes

Big lcs plays and $$$ say otherwise

Gath Immortal4 votes

I'm still in favor of dropping the overall damage potential in the entire game by about 20%, I think it would do a lot of good.

GigglesO4 votes

With the recent buffs it should probably be 30%.

KatCallMe2 votes

Not really. I feel people just play them because they're fun. I'm a kat main and get bursted by mages all the time. Kat is really weak early and should be punished so. But I wouldn't say assassins are broken cuz mages do insane damage too. When a syndra just presses QER and im dead is ridiculous. Especially with 2 doran rings or with just the late game power spike Lost Chapter. Meanwhile I do my full combo and shes at half hp lol. Or i do my full combo on a TF and he lives and then just kites me to hell with yellow card and just autos you to death. There are many problems in the game, but assassins aren't one of them lol. It's just that people fail to play against them properly. I'll ping my bot lane 100 times that a talon is coming and they stay pushed in and then die to him. Then he gets fed and becomes unstoppable. With any champ that is possible. So its more the players than the champs.

Śhunpo6 votes

...you can't deny that most assassins are still bullshit though, Kat included. The Assassin update ruined general gameplay health for all the assassins besides Ekko (who never had any healthy gameplay to begin with) and with every change made to the game nowadays it's just a direct buff to both mages and assassins.

Ana Mihajlovski7 votes

{quoted}

Not really. I feel people just play them because they're fun. I'm a kat main and get bursted by mages all the time. Kat is really weak early and should be punished so. But I wouldn't say assassins are broken cuz mages do insane damage too. When a syndra just presses QER and im dead is ridiculous. Especially with 2 doran rings or with just the late game power spike Lost Chapter. Meanwhile I do my full combo and shes at half hp lol. Or i do my full combo on a TF and he lives and then just kites me to hell with yellow card and just autos you to death. There are many problems in the game, but assassins aren't one of them lol. It's just that people fail to play against them properly. I'll ping my bot lane 100 times that a talon is coming and they stay pushed in and then die to him. Then he gets fed and becomes unstoppable. With any champ that is possible. So its more the players than the champs.

If you are Kata cought by a mage you really deserve to be bursted to death, honestly when I try to hit Kata with a skillshot, she is already on another side of the map

Śhunpo4 votes

Ok but, mages are also super bs right now. item 3285 item 3135 item 3157 item 2420 are all absolutely busted items that need reworks (and for Void Staff a revert to the magic pen).

Like sure you can't hit Kat cause she's hyper mobile, however, when you do you oneshot her because that's how bad damage is right now.

Oh, and an assassin jumped on you? Better use Stasis and absolutely ruin their assassination attempt!

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

Like sure you can't hit Kat cause she's hyper mobile, however, when you do you oneshot her because that's how bad damage is right now.

Meanwhile Kat oneshots mage players after she gets gunblade and can build those exact same items (besides ludens).

If someone as mobile as her can do it then I see no reason for immobile champs to not do the same.

Śhunpo1 votes

Yes, and if you've seen me talking about Kat on boards elsewhere you'd know I'm a very vocal advocate of removing item 3146 from the game. The item is a massive balance issue and it just needs to be gone.

and can build those exact same items (besides ludens).

Yeah...which is why I'm saying I want those changed. Thank you again for backing up my point(s).

If someone as mobile as her can do it then I see no reason for immobile champs to not do the same.

Flawed argument as you seemed to have missed my point about damage in general. Mobile or immobile champions should not be nuking each other unless they're fed. EVERYONE needs to lose damage across the board, and only then can we discuss further lowering assassins' damage to establish a proper power budget.

Pika3101 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ana Grubin,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WuzKbL9f,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2020-01-22T01:07:13.612+0000)

If you are Kata cought by a mage you really deserve to be bursted to death, honestly when I try to hit Kata with a skillshot, she is already on another side of the map

I wonder about the validity of those games. Katarina is notoriously one of the most-scripted characters in this game's history. I know that I've seen at least 2 or 3 who were undeniably doing so. Instant ward-jumps away from skillshots from fog of war, literal response times of a fraction of a tenth of a second & such.

I'm not claiming all, most or even a relevant fraction do so & it's likely considerably less prevalent nowadays. However, if those Kats were before her rework, there's a goodish chance they might've been.

Ana Mihajlovski1 votes

{quoted}

I wonder about the validity of those games. Katarina is notoriously one of the most-scripted characters in this game's history. I know that I've seen at least 2 or 3 who were undeniably doing so. Instant ward-jumps away from skillshots from fog of war, literal response times of a fraction of a tenth of a second & such.

I'm not claiming all, most or even a relevant fraction do so & it's likely considerably less prevalent nowadays. However, if those Kats were before her rework, there's a goodish chance they might've been.

I was paraphrasing, but truth is that most of the skillshots in teamfights are to slow to catch Katarina.

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