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The Juggernaut class is hurting

Tychusfindlay919··9 votes·740 views

With the exception of Darius Illaoi the Juggernaut class is hilariously underperforming.

Garen has had a plummeting win rate for the past few patches. His strengths are dwarfed by Darius and his weaknesses are more apparent than Darius. Like nasus, rylais and the mage update in general has fucked this zero pull/zero gap closer juggernaut.

Nasus Is supposed to be a late game champion but honestly, he pales in comparison to other hyper late scalers like Veigar and the introduction of rylais as core to almost every mage out there except ryze has essentially further killed off nasus.

Mordekaiser Does anything really need to be said about this guy and the shitty state he's in unless your Malicious Metal?

Skarner Not even a juggernaut anymore, he's basically reduced to a late game tank that can suppress and relocate someone else but otherwise not much (and the people he usually wants to suppress get qss).

Sion What would otherwise be a rather decent champion is hilariously gated by being given horrific base stats.

26 Comments

Dynikus8 votes

the fact that you listed sion and skarner as champions that are hurting certainly doesn't validate your post.

Junkο2 votes

He also thinks Veigar is better than Nasus.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

the fact that you listed sion and skarner as champions that are hurting certainly doesn't validate your post.

Sion has an abysmal play rate and declining win rate as you go higher into diamonds and masters.

Skarner has an even more abysmal play rate.

If any post here is invalidated its yours.

Ralanr7 votes

Sion. Is not. A juggernaut.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Sion. Is not. A juggernaut.

But a part of the juggernaut update, and mediocre at best anyways unless if he can get his ult off optimally. 80% of the game is spent with him trying to farm up to the base health of say Darius because they massively gutted his base HP for his passive. He should have a max base HP around 2000, and his passive should be mostly rewarding, not just him trying to play catch-up.

Ralanr6 votes

{quoted}

But a part of the juggernaut update,

...No he wasn't.

Dynikus2 votes

masters win/play rate doesn't mean much of anything with how few games there are per day and how much it fluctuates. diamond you're just flat out wrong on both accounts. http://www.lolking.net/champions/sion?chartType=winrate&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond#statistics http://www.lolking.net/champions/skarner?chartType=winrate&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond#statistics

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Skarner Sion Volibear Darius Illaoi are in great shape

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Skarner Sion are in great shape

ಠ_ಠ

Squidward Dab2 votes

Well mages wouldn't need rylais as a core if damage wasn't flying out everyone's asses as well as mobility. Well that and 400 health and 100 ap is nice

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Well mages wouldn't need rylais as a core if damage wasn't flying out everyone's asses as well as mobility. Well that and 400 health and 100 ap is nice

the problem is, that perma slows and snares punish low mobility champs harder than highly mobile champs.

a rylais slow doesnt stop a lee sin from throwing a q at you and dashing in your face with a laod of damage. it doesnt stop a fizz from trollpoling in your face, or a zed from jumping around with w and ult.

but it completely fucks over a garen, darius or nasus who have to run around to get somewhere.

i think the rylais change was absolutely terrible to counter mobility. grounded debuffs are a much better concept for that purpsoe.

Squidward Dab1 votes

Yea I agree that rylais isn't equal to all champs compared to grounded debuff but if they did nerf rylais they would probably buff liandrys in some way as its usually purchased because of the synergy with liandrys

darkestkhan1 votes

The problem is actually that you only get 2 items + mana regen item that give you 100 ap - rylai, luden's echo and morello. As far as morello is concerned, lost chapter gives you most of its bonuses. Rabadon is in bad spot right now - it is very expensive and we got tons of mr items to build so it is worse than void staff (for most champions - it is quite good on veigar, but it has more to do with his crazy scalings and amount of ap he gets from passive). Thus you get situation in which almost everyone gets rylai, ludens, morello and void staff.

And if someone doesn't like permaslows... ever played vs adc with frozen mallet? You won't get to him in most cases.

Incognonymous2 votes

It's a side effect of mobility and CC creep. Juggernauts would have been at home in season 2, but, what can you do? Mordekaiser is forced to buy Rylai's just to even get in range, but honestly, anyone who buys it AGAINST him will negate virtually 100% of his damage.

And I get that people will poop on the OP for listing borderline initiators, and even full on tanks like Sion, but they're subject to the same limitations as juggernauts. What is Skarner going to do against Kalista? He lands his E, so what? He'll never get in AA range to activate the stun.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

Sion its funny enough that sion isnt a juggernaut despite his champion title. he really has a disruptive tank kit with a long range initiation ult.

Skarner riot reclassified skarner as a vanguard and they hinted at another rework.

Volibear voli did really well in the jungle and is still doing fine

Darius darius is doing ok. the fix on his pull buffed him significantly.

Nasus Garen nasus and garen need buffs. they just got undertuned lategames due to the indirect nerfs of a lot of their core items

item 3025 item 3068 item 3742 item 3065 item 3053 item 3071 item 3009 + boot enchant removals.

all these items have been nerfed in some form over the course of the season with no compensation to the champions they were intended for. its not hard to see how it stacks up to a significant lategame nerf. their 6 item builds lost a ton of effectiveness, got more expensive, they became less mobile, spirit visage lost mr etc.

its really just a matter of compensation in number buffs to their lategames.

Illaoi illaoi has a shitty power curve of being really strong early and then falling off hard as fuck.

DrMundo mundo seems a tad too weak, but not by a large margin.

Yorick yorick is still forever alone and waiting for his full gameplay update and vu.

Mordekaiser morde is still in a shitty spot after they decided they dont want him bot lane with his w and probably looking at a small scale rework too.

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WtEqqdQX,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-22T02:30:38.893+0000)

Mordekaiser morde is still in a shitty spot after they decided they dont wat him bot lane with his w and probably looking at a small scale rework too.

Actually they're planning to do a VGU of him next year I believe.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Actually they're planning to do a VGU of him next year I believe.

whenever that will be : /

the thing with reworks of that scale is often that they cant figure it out and ice it for years to come. if youre following designers, yorick already went through a bunch of iterations of a total rework that was then scrapped and they basically started at 0.

honestly, i think mordes concept as a duo lane bruiser was really interesting, and i rather hope they try again to get it to work properly instead of trying to completely relaunch him again.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WtEqqdQX,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-22T02:30:38.893+0000)

Sion its funny enough that sion isnt a juggernaut despite his champion title. he really has a disruptive tank kit with a long range initiation ult.

Skarner riot reclassified skarner as a vanguard and they hinted at another rework.

Volibear voli did really well in the jungle and is still doing fine

Darius darius is doing ok. the fix on his pull buffed him significantly.

Nasus Garen nasus and garen need buffs. they just got undertuned lategames due to the indirect nerfs of a lot of their core items

item 3025 item 3068 item 3742 item 3065 item 3053 item 3071 item 3009 + boot enchant removals.

all these items have been nerfed in some form over the course of the season with no compensation to the champions they were intended for. its not hard to see how it stacks up to a significant lategame nerf. their 6 item builds lost a ton of effectiveness, got more expensive, they became less mobile, spirit visage lost mr etc.

its really just a matter of compensation in number buffs to their lategames.

Illaoi illaoi has a shitty power curve of being really strong early and then falling off hard as fuck.

DrMundo mundo seems a tad too weak, but not by a large margin.

Yorick yorick is still forever alone and waiting for his full gameplay update and vu.

Mordekaiser morde is still in a shitty spot after they decided they dont want him bot lane with his w and probably looking at a small scale rework too.

Granted Spirit Visage lost MR, I still didn't find it a nerf.

They did compensate that with a stronger healing passive. It's made clutch decimates on Darius that much more rewarding.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Granted Spirit Visage lost MR, I still didn't find it a nerf.

They did compensate that with a stronger healing passive. It's made clutch decimates on Darius that much more rewarding.

it lost 15 mr and gained 5% improved healing. overall it was still a significant nerf. it was definitely one for garen who relies on upfront defense more than on sustain from his passive.

i guess for a lot of the other juggs it wasnt quite as bad.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WtEqqdQX,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2016-07-22T14:26:16.542+0000)

it lost 15 mr and gained 5% improved healing. overall it was still a significant nerf. it was definitely one for garen who relies on upfront defense more than on sustain from his passive.

i guess for a lot of the other juggs it wasnt quite as bad.

Yeah, the change benefited Darius and Illaoi a lot more than it did Garen

All the more reason to buff my man Gayren so that I can play him in platinum ranked without feeling like I'm gimping myself.

TheOvermind2 votes

Sion is a cc tank initiator. His damage cannot be compared to darius illaoi or nasus

Spookÿ1 votes

Are. You. FUCKING. Kidding. Me.

Juggernauts are busted as all get out. I have been 100-0 by these tanky fucktards for the last 3 months. Juggernauts need to be NERFED. Skip.

#FreeTyler1

Slack King1 votes

{quoted}

With the exception of Darius Illaoi the Juggernaut class is hilariously underperforming.

Garen has had a plummeting win rate for the past few patches. His strengths are dwarfed by Darius and his weaknesses are more apparent than Darius. Like nasus, rylais and the mage update in general has fucked this zero pull/zero gap closer juggernaut.

Nasus Is supposed to be a late game champion but honestly, he pales in comparison to other hyper late scalers like Veigar and the introduction of rylais as core to almost every mage out there except ryze has essentially further killed off nasus.

Mordekaiser Does anything really need to be said about this guy and the shitty state he's in unless your Malicious Metal?

Skarner Not even a juggernaut anymore, he's basically reduced to a late game tank that can suppress and relocate someone else but otherwise not much (and the people he usually wants to suppress get qss).

Sion What would otherwise be a rather decent champion is hilariously gated by being given horrific base stats.

Mordekaiser Hey now, malicious isnt the onyl one

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

99.99999999999999999999999% of the time juggernauts just fail because players try to force them to be things that they simply aren't.

Garen DW guyz I'm the tank

Darius durrrr I can 1v5!

Sion GOTTA BUILD MOAR HP!!!

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

99.99999999999999999999999% of the time juggernauts just fail because players try to force them to be things that they simply aren't.

Garen DW guyz I'm the tank

Darius durrrr I can 1v5!

Sion GOTTA BUILD MOAR HP!!!

people dont do that at higher ranks. look up their winrates.

i mean darius is doing fine right now. its mainly garen and nasus who need compensation buffs for major item nerfs. mundo could use something small, and illaoi needs adjustments to her power curve.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WtEqqdQX,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-07-22T03:12:16.873+0000)

people dont do that at higher ranks. look up their winrates.

i mean darius is doing fine right now. its mainly garen and nasus who need compensation buffs for major item nerfs. mundo could use something small, and illaoi needs adjustments to her power curve.

Darius is fine. Can confirm as a one trick Darius lol.

I used to play Gayren every so often in ranked but now I haven't played him in months because I felt like I was trolling by picking him after the mage update and continuous indirect nerfs. Gayren probably got hit harder than Darius because his base stats are weaker than Darius and yet he is literally 100% melee unlike Darius.

I used to be a nasus main, at this rate, you have to pray to get to 500+ stacks and when you hit that, mages with rylais come along and the amount of stacks you have doesn't matter since you're never able to reach your target (especially if you're trying to chase an asshole like azir or zyra).

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