Why can't assassins be more like Talon?

ModAcademy Kayn·Apr 6, 2015·92 votes·6,098 views

In my opinion, which is mine and does not represent anyone but me, Talon is a great, beautiful example of an Assassin. He's a All in, kill the carry, and... well that's it. He killed the carry, his job is done. (Another Great Example for this is Rengar.) The main point of this is the "All in". "All in" is throwing everything you got with Zero-Regard of consequences. This is where Talon performs admirably.

My other point is how different this "All-in" is with other assassins. I will leave Kha and Kat out of this since they need a kill to get a reset to POSSIBLY escape. My two problems is that with LeBlanc and Zed. Their version of "All-In" is with a different regard of "consqences". You Fk up with Talon, you have no escape, assuming you ulted in to kill the carry. Even then, anyone smart would've bought an Oracle's. You Fk up as Zed or Leblanc, don't worry you have an insta escape to retreat from whatever postion you where 3 seconds ago.

Whatever happened to the days of old where assassins actually had to fully commit to a kill, laying down their lives for the sake of a teamfight?

TL;DR: Assassins nowadays too much safety. Talon's all in get-the-kill-or-going-down-trying is what I believe assassins need more of.

107 Comments

AnidanApr 6, 201530 votes

So, you want more assassins to have a healthy lane pattern. Because his actual assassination is, for all intents and purposes in this game, considered fairly unhealthy. If he is the slightest bit ahead, the recipient of his burst (usually a squishy mage or ADC) has no answer for his burst because it can be done as fast as LB's (albeit with less damage, but we've already established LeBlanc does stupid damage in other parts of the boards), while having access to items like Last Whisper, Black Cleaver, Youmuu's, Bloodthirster, Mercurial Scimitar and so on.

As much as I hate Zed, I will actually defend his assassination pattern. His laning pattern, however, is indefensible. Zed has a safety net that is frustrating to play against, but that is also because his assassinations are not instant unless he is insanely ahead, what with having only a whole 2 spells for actual damage until his ult pops. Zed's assassination is plenty healthy, it's his laning that isn't.

Who the hell ever said all assassins need to be extremely risky? If all assassins are equally risky as Talon, then you'll just pick whoever is most likely to blow the intended target up and someone will still go unpicked. It creates no actual diversity for assassins. Plus, eventually someone would ask for a champion with a safety net, or hard CC and blow the whole thing to hell anyway.

Don't make more assassins like Talon; that's boring. Also, if you don't remember: Talon is only considered healthy while he's weak. When he's strong, he's instantly targeted for nerfs by Riot AND the community.

DeusVultApr 6, 20153 votes

your missing the whole point

talon is either 100 or nothing

if he goes in and 100-0 his target, he did good and the other team did bad. If he goes in and the other team anticipates and CC's him and then kills him, the other team did good and talon fk'd up

Meanwhile, with Zed and LB, there is no counterplay, which is healthy for all gameplay; If Zed goes in and gets the kill, he can come right back out. Zed 1 BigLC$PLlay, enemy team 0 If Zed goes in and they CC him, unless they quickly burst him down, he just goes right back out with his ult. And its still, Zed 1 BigLC$Play enemy team 0

There is no counterplay with zed, in either his laning or his assassination pattern

yet they use words like "high risk" to describe him, but they make no sense, because there is no risk in his kit

Lao Fu the TigerApr 6, 201510 votes

{quoted}

your missing the whole point

talon is either 100 or nothing

if he goes in and 100-0 his target, he did good and the other team did bad. If he goes in and the other team anticipates and CC's him and then kills him, the other team did good and talon fk'd up

Meanwhile, with Zed and LB, there is no counterplay, which is healthy for all gameplay; If Zed goes in and gets the kill, he can come right back out. Zed 1 BigLC$PLlay, enemy team 0 If Zed goes in and they CC him, unless they quickly burst him down, he just goes right back out with his ult. And its still, Zed 1 BigLC$Play enemy team 0

There is no counterplay with zed, in either his laning or his assassination pattern

yet they use words like "high risk" to describe him, but they make no sense, because there is no risk in his kit

You're leaving out several details about Zed's assassination pattern.

If Zed doesn't get the kill, his ultimate is down for 70+ seconds during the mid game. Talon's is down for about 40.
Zed's base abilities are terrible for assassinations. He really needs his ult to be able to do a safe assassination. Meanwhile, a fed Talon can get in and blow somebody up with his three basic abilities.
Zed's burst is not instantaneous. Talon's is. This is an absolutely huge difference in their patterns.

Allow me to address one of your statements.

There is no counterplay with zed, in either his laning or his assassination pattern

Sure, his laning is frustrating, but the second part is 100% false. In fact, of ALL the assassins in the game, Zed's assassinations have arguably the most counterplay, because his assassination attempts are not instantaneous. Are you a mage? Get an hourglass. Are you AD? Grab a QSS into a Mercurial Scimitar.

The problem is people complain about having to buy these items. Why? They both give some of the absolute best stats in the entire game (120 AP AND 50 armour AND total invincibility for 2.5 seconds). Be thankful these items exist.

Now let's talk teamfight safety. Zed goes in. Uses Deathmark. Succeeds in killing somebody. Now it's a 4v5, and he can poke and do some damages to other targets. He gets in and out, and does his job.

He fails. Now he has incredibly little kill pressure. His shurikens, believe it or not, while safe in laning and very frustating during the early game, don't scale well. They do 100% bonus AD to the first target and 60% to other targets. Talon gets 120% to all targets. After his assassination fails, he honestly doesn't have much kill pressure unless the enemy team royally goofs up and gets caught out. His burst without his ultimate is fairly low. And if the enemy builds a bit of defense, he's not doing much damage. Sure, he has safety in the sense he can get out no matter what, but now it's essentially a 4.5v5 since he's very underwhelming after his ultimate is shot.

Chromatic EagleApr 7, 20152 votes

You talked about both items being great but only described Zhonyas. ADs don't want to buy MR to not die to an AD assassin.

IllusoryLuminesApr 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WsoOrlUM,comment-id=0007000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-07T11:13:14.372+0000)

You talked about both items being great but only described Zhonyas. ADs don't want to buy MR to not die to an AD assassin.

The difference between the usefulness of an ADC that had to buy QSS vs a zed that cant ult is MASSIVE. Seriously, 1.5k to almost ignore one of the enemy team is a huge deal, and the extra MR isnt that bad if the enemy toplaner is rumble or sion or so or is a thornmail buyer(you see people buy banshee's JUST to not get shredded by thornmail)

Lao Fu the TigerApr 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WsoOrlUM,comment-id=0007000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-07T11:13:14.372+0000)

You talked about both items being great but only described Zhonyas. ADs don't want to buy MR to not die to an AD assassin.

Cool. What are the odds the enemy team won't have some form of magic damage?

Remember, 80 AD is the highest on-purchase AD you can get from any item in the game. And grabbing some MR never hurts when the enemy team probably has some form of magic damage.

I fail to see your point about QSS/Merc Scim being problematic, when the only time the MR is wasted is arguably during the laning phase.

DepóngoApr 8, 20151 votes

Just to add something, QSS's MR isn't entirely useless against Zed. Zed's passive deals magic damage.

Chromatic EagleApr 8, 20152 votes

Fair enough.

Chromatic EagleApr 8, 20151 votes

That's my point, and the point of people arguing against buying defensive items against Zed. You build MR for an effect to lane against an all physical champion. If you're rushing Zhonya's, you're denying yourself CDR, mana, etc. It's less of an issue with Zhonya's.

Skia AsteriApr 6, 201510 votes

The problem with all in, no escape assassins that kill one person is how to make them attractive to play. One obvious, but very problematic, way is to make them going in a virtually guaranteed kill on the target. It is a problem because dying and there being nothing that could have prevented it is not a good feeling, so this would lead to a champion that is very toxic to play against.

There are likely other ways to go about it, but that does not mean it is an easy design problem.

AuryielApr 6, 20155 votes

At first I saw the title and I was like ''Oh, HELL NO!'' because honestly Talon's design is pretty bad.

BUT I wholeheartedly agree that him having to actually commit for a kill is really good design for an assassin, unlike LeBlanc and Zed, who both need to have their safety nerfed to shit tier (and then buff them in other areas if they need it).

Ex : Zed can only port to his R shadow after death mark has exploded. LeBlanc can only port back to her distortion pad after a 1.5 second delay.

DarthSpectrumApr 6, 20155 votes

If Talon uses his ult to engage, he can cast full combo: R- E- W- Q with no chance of retaliation. It is numerically one of the highest burst damage in game, and even if the ADC survives, he can finish up with Ghost Blade.

This guy's all in blows Zed's all out of the water. It potentially has no indication at all, and the damage is so quick and front loaded that enemies might not have time use their defensive cool downs. Talon can also sacrifice some of that reliability to use his ult as an escape rather than engage. However, Zed and LeBlanc beats Talon in terms of poke. Talon is only dangerous in melee range with a short AOE skill shot and a long CD gap closer, but Zed and LB can partially activate their combos to do considerable damage on a regular basis.

I actually prefer Zed's mechanics to Talon's. Playing a ranged champion against Talon is borderline cyber bullying, but he turns the tables on you once he gets his burst. In lane, before mages acquire Zhonyas, it practically becomes a stat check to see if you can live through his damage.

Zed's damage on the other hand, can be negated entirely with proper ability usage and skill. (Although it doesn't happen often.) As well, Zed isn't completely defenseless before 6; in fact, he is rather OP in that regard.

Jungle Lux GodApr 7, 20154 votes

Honestly, Talon is a bad example of what assassins should be more like. His burst pattern is super unhealthy: if he's slightly ahead and he decides to kill a squishy, he's going to kill that squishy, without anything that the squishy can do about it. That lack of counterplay is inherently unhealthy. However, he's also super binary: if he can't kill a squishy, then he's useless for the entire game. Quite a few other assassins are in a similar boat, especially a lot of the older assassins.

Zed and Leblanc are completely different cases. If Zed goes in, he might get a kill, but he cannot get a kill without his opponents being able to react to him. At the same time, he doesn't really have the consequences that other assassins may have in trying to get a kill. They can all-in without having to all-in. This also doesn't include the fact that LeBlanc doesn't really have the healthiest of gameplay patterns, and Zed has a charlie foxtrot of other gameplay problems that make him super frustrating to play.

I want to make a special mention of another assassin that I personally think the other assassins should be a lot more like: Fizz. I personally feel like Fizz is a very well designed assassin after the recent changes he got that added the % damage to his ultimate at the expense of damage elsewhere. I personally think he is a well designed assassin because his burst pattern is fairly healthy: he needs to land his ultimate in order to deal a good portion of his damage, which gives his opponents a lot of room to play around him. It's not like he suddenly comes out of nowhere and bursts you down without you being able to defend yourself. If he dives and kills the enemy carry, he's not guaranteed to die, but at the same time he's not guaranteed to escape either. Then if he falls behind, he still has some kind of fallback pattern, where he can at least support his team by throwing out a fish and slowing/knocking up enemies. It's the perfect design for an assassin.

bad arcade kittyApr 6, 20153 votes

why cannot more assassins be like katarina old school design, all in with no escapes, you either kill their whole team or not

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 20157 votes

This is true. Her escape and kill potential is keyed in to her having to get a kill or two first, due to how her kit is set up. No Kill = No Success

gubigubiApr 6, 20153 votes

Well Leblanc came way before talon... So its not really assassins now a days as much as it is just talon But ik what you mean. Zeds tower dive is really do all his damage to you and escape with the same spell thats about to take 50% of your health. Feels so cheap.

I really don't mind playing against assassins like zed or leblanc though. Some people hate assassins, some people hate bruisers, some people hate tanks. No one likes everything

Bryden38Apr 7, 20153 votes

I agree that assassins should be high risk high reward, like Talon is, but Talon is a little bit broke in his own way. Talon's W and Ult both have really large AoE. So, if you do delete their carry, chances are you'll also chuck other members of the enemy team for a significant amount.

Zed's ult is single targeted. I suppose his Q and E are AoE, but his Q does less damage, and I'll be hard to line it up. His E range is small, so there would have to be someone really close to the carry.

Same with LeBlanc. Her only AoE is her W, and that also has a very small range. Her combo is Q, Ult Q, W and E (unless you E first, or whatever, they'res a reason why I suck at her). So unless their really close to each other, your W will probably only hit one target.

So Zed and LeBlanc both really only damage one target, while Talon kinda shreds their team.

Leti the YetiApr 6, 20152 votes

outa curiosity, assuming talon didnt fk up.. where exactly would he run to? ;l I think thats another difference between him and the mentioned

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 201518 votes

Well if Talon didn't F**k up, then he did his job and made the fight a 4v5. He doesn't need to run anywhere and can just stick around in the fight targeting the next guy, if his team follows up.

Did I word the post badly?

bumbertyrApr 7, 20152 votes

zed and Leblanc are 2 assassins that take little to no skill because they have such easy escapes :/.

The only time Leblanc has "High risk" is if there's a veigar in the game.

OddysseasApr 6, 20151 votes

And is that supposed to be a bad thing? You just said that lb and zed are actually better than talon.

Anyways i shaco is the same way, q i kill adc and die.

I like fizz, he is more like rape the tanks ashole and after the tank in down melt the adc, i don't even know why fizz is assasin lol.

Akali is the most successful i think she can jumo in kill adc and use the mist to hide right after. She is just a pain in the ass to play against if you are the adc.

Sona PingApr 6, 201538 votes

And is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Yes. Quite naturally, yes. Because Riot keeps saying Champions like Zed and Fizz are supposed to be designed and balanced around, quote, "High Risk, High Reward Gameplay" but when they don't actually face risk that shows that there was a failure, that Riot's intended gameplay is not, in reality, present in the game.

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 201522 votes

Exactly. Talon is probably the most prevalent of High-Risk High-Reward Champ. He can insta-delete a carry from a fight, just from getting in there but he faces the risk of also being deleted if he makes an accident. No escape for our friend, the assassin, only death awaits him.

Stormfire87Apr 6, 20153 votes

I'm pretty sure most assassins are supposed to get out after getting a kill. What you're thinking of is a suicide bomber.

MrBuffingtonApr 6, 201513 votes

I think "after getting the kill" is the key point. The thing that bothers most people is that Zed and LB have easy ways of bailing on a kill that goes south. To a degree, Kat and Akali also need to commit pretty heavily for kills since their gap closers are targeted, and are somewhat reliant on their resets for getting out of a fight, so they must get the kill/assist in order to get out. Of course, the resets also make them annoying to deal with, which is why OP points to Talon as an example of a good assassin rather than these two.

B1naryB0tApr 6, 20155 votes

I feel the only issue with resets is that it allows for a chain of kills, in which case, you aren't an assassin, you're a serial killer. That and you shouldn't be able to have a basically guaranteed escape as an assassin. An assassin should have next to no escapes IMO

EvilRabbittApr 6, 20153 votes

But an assassin is a serial killer >.> I agree they're should be a way around it. Which is why tanks need to get buffed =D

Meeks011Apr 7, 20152 votes

They're not a serial killer, they're a penta generator. I don't think "assassins" like Yi and Kat should be getting pentas. Master Yi is the loosest term of assassin I've ever seen.

Z46Apr 7, 20151 votes

Master Yi excels at getting to the back line unhindered, and subsequently deleting at least one priority target. This is what makes him a good assassin. His ability to continue the fight and get additional kills is dependent on his ability to delete his first target, just like Kat. (Yi just has a more balanced reset mechanic.)

If you want a loose usage of the term, Malzahar's secondary role is Assassin. He can delete quite literally any target he chooses, but he has no way to reach them. Malzahar should be considered a Mage/Fighter to properly match his kit and playstyle.

AutoreactiveCD4Apr 6, 20153 votes

Riot does tend to have a problem with instantly deleting someone without them being able to react. (except lb for some reason...) Zed's ult is a good example of being able to kill someone while they can react because the initial animation of his ult and the delay on the last bit of burst...the problem is the shadow his ult leaves...and if he didn't have to W into his target he can escape without...and flash. There's a lot of safety from that part of his kit.

Talon doesn't have that safety but his laning is weaker and burst comes through faster. That's the theory I assume is behind it as I understand.

SokolnikiApr 6, 20151 votes

LB's instant delete is counteracted by her deplorable late game, and the fact that many champions that are likely to encounter her in her most popular lane can effectively counter her by shifting to a safe power-farming mentality rather than to attempt to harass her as she is subpar as a farmer, it becomes rather easy to push the lane against her and either force her to level W, which many LB's dislike doing as it takes away from Q and QR combos, or forces her to lose a metric ton of farm as the tower mercs the minions before she can final hit... thereby making her late game even more deplorable while the former option of maxing W first, ends up hurting her early game and can make it possible for their lane opponent to trade favorably against her come lvl 6.

MohawkBirdApr 6, 20152 votes

[deleted]

It Hertz When IPApr 6, 20152 votes

Other than the ton of dodging, I've rarely seen a Leblanc best other midlaners in 1v1 late game without being fed early game.

Kitten of EvilApr 8, 20151 votes

That's not really true. Her base damages are so high she doesn't need to be super fed to still gravely injure or kill a squishy. Let's say she's at level 14. Her W Q R has a base damage of 700 + 200% AP, and that's assuming she whiffs her E entirely. If she lands E and you then flash out or escape the second proc, that's now 840 + 310% AP. She also always brings summoner 14 so that's 70-410 true damage on top.

I've played games where I've zoned LB out of lane early game, gone 0/0 in lane, out-CSed her by 30 or 40, build item 3028 ,and STILL get instantly melted by her late game. But unfortunately, as squishy as she is, you can't trade ever, because the W she used to initiate onto you is now a free "oh shit things are going wrong" panic button.

Leblanc gets to W in and dump everything as fast as the player's fingers can press WQRE, while you have a very short time to try to respond, based entirely on your reflexes and your internet connection, and she gets to just W back to safety.

Oh and the cherry on top of that crap cake is that even if you do hit her with a bunch of damage, her passive will save her from being killed.

It Hertz When IPApr 8, 20151 votes

I can't talk to numbers, just that I've never seen a non-fed LB win trades late game. Course, that might just be at my ELO, cause I've also never really seen a LB kicking ass period unless our mid was practically brain-dead or trolling early game.

OrbvApr 7, 20151 votes

She is only really good at killing 1 target, which works in lanes because there aren't that many enemies to keep track of. But as the game goes on, getting kills is irrelevant if you can't react to it.

In the late game she does not have safe wave clear, so she can't push a wave nor can she defend against super minions if they are coming in.

She's a 1v1 champ, so if she attempts to steal a baron or dragon, she has no abilities left to kill a target (so she ends up choosing to kill a target)

Her base stats have low scaling, so by level 18 her stats are actually a lower ratio compared to her opponent at lvl 1. So it becomes a little easier to survive her dmg or really hurt her by getting any ability off.

Sir YamazukiApr 6, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WsoOrlUM,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-04-06T08:42:44.035+0000)

Yes. Quite naturally, yes. Because Riot keeps saying Champions like Zed and Fizz are supposed to be designed and balanced around, quote, "High Risk, High Reward Gameplay" but when they don't actually face risk that shows that there was a failure, that Riot's intended gameplay is not, in reality, present in the game.

The thing with Riot is, they consider being melee a down side, but then give some melees a bunch of defensive tools and mobility where being melee means nothing other than the fact their AAs aren't ranged. Then they want to say fighting in Melee is a risk factor but again, their defensive capabilities or mobility removes those risks. Who cares if you're melee when you can still farm from ranged and have escapes? Melee is only a drawback if you happen to be someone like Garen, Malph, etc.

ZephyrDrakeApr 6, 20151 votes

and then you realize Talon sucks... well if your objective is to make assassins suck then that's a good idea

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 201516 votes

If you're basing the assumption on Talon "sucking" because he cannot escape if he does something wrong, then I have to disagree with you. Rengar does not have an escape, if he uses his ult offensively, so does that mean he is bad?

If you're basing the assumption that Talon sucks due to some prevalence in his kit being bad/untuned, then I welcome you to share your ideas on why.

ZephyrDrakeApr 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you're basing the assumption on Talon "sucking" because he cannot escape if he does something wrong, then I have to disagree with you. Rengar does not have an escape, if he uses his ult offensively, so does that mean he is bad?

If you're basing the assumption that Talon sucks due to some prevalence in his kit being bad/untuned, then I welcome you to share your ideas on why.

i am basing due to the fact that he is worthless. Have you seen him being played at all? it's not because he has no escapes it's because he either gets ahead early or he becomes pretty much non-existent the rest of the game. I am basing it due to the fact that even when he is ahead he still doesn't do much other than try to get a single kill unless so far ahead that you could demolish anyone with any champion. He offers nothing to his team and even when assassins were just starting to become a thing people barely looked at him and the one time people started using him he lost his silence and bye bye Talon again. He needs to be changed badly and not numbers wise, kit wise. He needs a new passive badly and he needs something other than a slow that lasts what? .25 seconds?

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 201516 votes

{quoted}

**he still doesn't do much other than try to get a single kill **

Is that not the point of an assassin? Get the single kill that turns a team fight from a fair fight to a 4v5?

He offers nothing to his team

Please emphasize on that. Talon has slows, Zed has a slow, Leblanc has a snare. What do assassins contribute more then just a single target kill ?

ZephyrDrakeApr 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Is that not the point of an assassin? Get the single kill that turns a team fight from a fair fight to a 4v5?

Please emphasize on that. Talon has slows, Zed has a slow, Leblanc has a snare. What do assassins contribute more then just a single target kill ?

The point of assassins is to get a single kill yes... too bad Talon cannot do that unless he is stupidly ahead or his opponents are morons. There is a reason he isn't played much and that is because you can just pick anything and more than likely will be able to assassinate things while having an extra thing to do. If he gets ahead he might be able to do enough damage to get a kill, if he gets behind good luck even attempting to get a kill. Talon as an assassin does very little and there are non-assassin champions who are better at actually 100-0 ing the enemy. Sorry to say this but Talon is one of the worst if not THE worst assassin in the game right now

please tell me about these slows? you mean the slows that are barely noticeable? the awesome slows that he doesn't even need in the first place? the slows of which only one is useful for that one auto attack that he use to actually use his passive?

lB2kGRlc8yApr 6, 201514 votes

So what I'm getting from your comments is that you exclusively play the no risk high reward cancer champs and have no idea what strategy is. If such champions didn't exist in LoL, you'd prolly run off to HoN where they're more prevalent.

Amanda PleaseApr 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So what I'm getting from your comments is that you exclusively play the no risk high reward cancer champs and have no idea what strategy is. If such champions didn't exist in LoL, you'd prolly run off to HoN where they're more prevalent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

The smart thing to do is to calmy weigh your options. When you play ranked you will most likely play to win. So you pick the champion that helps you win. Don't get me wrong. All the Olaf Mains. All the Talon Mains. All the Eve mains have my respect for winning with such a LARGE handicap. But if you wanna win. You pick a top tier.

Mecha MaIphiteApr 6, 20155 votes

Maybe you just suck with Talon.

Battlecast SonaApr 6, 20154 votes

I'm looking at this guy's arguments going "but like, Talon has one of the best lategames of any of the assassins... At 6 items Talon can basically kill anyone with just blink AA->Q->Hydra... And with a 30 second CD on his ultimate, you can blink in, assassinate someone, run out, and then use your ultimate again to chase people down after a fight..."

Yandere CarryApr 6, 20151 votes

A lot like Talon? You mean do a lot of AOE damage?

DoFrApr 6, 20157 votes

no, he means a champion that can't do everything with extreme safety

Chromatic EagleApr 7, 20151 votes

Doesn't he also die when he kills the carry?

ModAcademy KaynApr 7, 20152 votes

Said this once, I'll say this again. A Talon will not just kill a carry for the heck of it. His team will be behind him to engage after he has killed the carry. His team following up is his escape. If his team does not follow up, due to some lack of communication, yea he will die. If they do, then his rate of survival goes up a lot.