So when is Shaco getting nerfed?

Blåbæret·Mar 25, 2017·51 votes·3,007 views

Or a better question: Why is he in the game at all?

84 Comments

MannnyMar 25, 201712 votes

Shaco is annoying but damn it's notthat big a deal stop hopping on the bandwagon. Graves and Lee Sin are much worse

GlîtchyMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is annoying but damn it's notthat big a deal stop hopping on the bandwagon. Graves and Lee Sin are much worse

all 3 are big issues.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20174 votes

Jungle winrates: Graves 50,63% LeeSin 49,01% Shaco 55,54%

In my opinion, Graves and Lee Sin seem fine right now... they are not even close to Shaco.

Extreme PersonMar 26, 20171 votes

LeeSin takes a lot of skill but still disgustingly OP at high levels Graves full carry low range, often picked for the sake of picking by a lot of people who have no business playing him Shaco is broken because of 1 fking build. Tri titanic is the only reason his winrate is so high, you go after that build and it'll be down to 51-53 where it was forever.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20171 votes

Dude, these are the winrates for platinum and above... Don't know about you but these players are experienced enough for me to think they know pretty well how to play champs like Lee Sin or Graves.

Extreme PersonMar 26, 20171 votes

nobody under d1 can use lee sin to 90+% of his potential. Nobody under d5 can utilize lee to 60% and that's generous. For his playrate and difficulty, 49% is high. The last time lee was meta before this stint he was like 46% in soloq and people still considered him high elo cancer. I havent seen a high elo player with 50+ graves games with under 65% win rate. I've also never seen an ivern player below 70 yet nobody's complaining about ivern for some reason. Shaco needs nerfs but not the way riot is going about it on PBE.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20171 votes

Maybe you are right about these 3 champs, didn't analyse enough data to tell that specifically.

But there actually are threads saying Ivern is too strong and I think that for a long time already... The problem is that Ivern doesn't kill, he is enabling his team mates to kill. So people are less frustrated about Ivern because it actually was for example Fiora who killed them. His indirect play style deceives his true power for many players.

lolipopevelynnMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is annoying but damn it's notthat big a deal stop hopping on the bandwagon. Graves and Lee Sin are much worse

id argue that and Khazix are also alot worse than shaco

TimX24968BMar 26, 20171 votes

just tried picking up kha. definitely agree with you there.

However, I find Vi in a pretty decent spot right now. I tend to prefer bloodrazor over warrior on her buildwise, but I feel it helps her keep damage more consistent. I just get some lifesteal with it, and I rarely die.

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 27, 20172 votes

Since her AS nerfs and the nerfs to Collussus Vi is arguably pretty in line. Her kit can lack counterplay a times (Which I'm sure they'll address in the diver update), but for the most part it feels bearable in comparison to other JG's rn.

Thee Pie ManMar 25, 20177 votes

I enjoy Shaco, he exploits the ignorance of some people and the overconfidence of others. I main Malph primarily but playing Shaco is fun. I like how he can go either way with his builds or even hybrid in certain situations. While AD has more potential pushing, jungle clearing and the like. Playing AP shaco is fun too.

Can you at least tell us why you think he should be nerfed and what specific parts you want nerfed versus "He just needs to be stopped please."

TimX24968BMar 26, 20171 votes

He is designed to eat up sandwich level players in soloqueue. thats why he seems unfair.

If your team is actually somewhat coordinated, he can fall on his face so hard its unbelievable.

Ben SharpioMar 25, 20176 votes

you ban shaco they pick eve, you ban shaco and eve they pick rengar, you ban shaco, eve, rengar they pick khazix. These champions have too good of ganking potential, AND on top of that have an edge in dueling. And if you so happen to catch them out, they use the shitty blast cone to escape.

normie sIayerMar 25, 20178 votes

wheres lee sin and graves

Critmaster GarenMar 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

wheres lee sin and graves

you can ward against them.

invisibility is a fucking nightmare right now.

AldapsayarMar 25, 20176 votes

You can ward against Shaco too

Critmaster GarenMar 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

You can ward against Shaco too

not if hes semi competent. he can skip walls and come from a fuckload of different angles into your lane.

you cant ward every entrance to your lane with 1 single ward either. if you ward the river, he can just gank through the lane etc. its the same with eve.

Mr UrgodMar 25, 20175 votes

At least you can use ~~Pink~~ Control Wards against Eve. With Shaco, you're just fucked.

AldapsayarMar 26, 20171 votes

Good Shacos use same places over the wall. Of course they can trick you and come from wall from behind, but anybody can do that and as long as your bushes are warded you will see him before he deceives. That's actual tip from Shaco player. Also look if your wards have been swept, because good Shaco also buys sweeper on first back. I also add control ward to make gank safer. But even then some bot laners notice control ward that appeared too far from our support and start retreating. I am not even mentioning that some players are able to notice orange puff and go back immediately.

dunder killMar 25, 20172 votes

Warding against Shaco is like warding against Zac. He has so many different angles of attack because Shaco has Flash on a basic ability on top of 4.5 seconds of invisibility that can't be spotted out by control wards

Fondling GemsMar 26, 20172 votes

I always find this argument weak. Sure Shaco has 4.5 seconds of invis at lv 9. However Shaco is strong in the early game where he invades very early. This means he has a 1.5 second stealth on a 14 second CD. In the mid game it gets harder but early game he can definitely be warded against.

DessemMar 25, 201719 votes

Eve is good at duelling?

EedatMar 25, 201710 votes

Eve isn't good at a fair 1v1, but she excels at surprising already low Junglers while they're clearing their own jungle. That being said, most junglers are going to kill you if they catch you at half HP with no cooldowns while you're tanking a camp. Eve is just better at it.

So I wouldn't say she's a good duelist, but shes great at invading.

ElikainMar 25, 20172 votes

I'm just waiting for her rework. She's far from useless but in all honesty, she's just not worth the trouble if late game approaches. Either you're a tanky Eve so you can buy some time for your team or you're full squish assassin that didn't manage to close the game in time and now you're getting your ass handed to you.

A competent Eve player can do a lot of work but that's just too many games of bad Eve plays to get to the good ones. Kind of a frustrating experience, to be honest. And i was an ex-Eve main that was enamored by the fact how little i had to care about enemy wards (that was way back when Magus Enchantment was still in the game).

GayFluffyUnicornMar 25, 20171 votes

If you count a 100-0 in 2 secs duelling then yes. Tho she needs atleast a kill or two which is not that hard with a bit of map awareness.

DessemMar 26, 20172 votes

Evelynn can be 2/0/3 and still lose a duel against a 0/2/0 Graves, though. She really doesn't have the tools to properly deal with other junglers.

Duelling is basically going 1v1 against someone, and Evelynn can only 1v1 an ADC if she (a) catches them by surprise and (b) is far ahead of them, otherwise the ADC should come out ahead come mid game.

superfire444Mar 26, 20172 votes

anyone can be 2/0/3 and lose a duel to a 0/2/0 graves though...

Pommel KnightMar 25, 20174 votes

Same time as ahri it seems.

BlåbæretMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Same time as ahri it seems.

Good point.

MrryZMar 26, 20173 votes

Ahhh the ol classic "nerf x champion" without any reasoning whatsoever...

AnhartaminMar 26, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Wet DrymanMar 26, 20173 votes

Shaco isn't hard to pick up anymore since the rework, jungle changes and nerfs to his counters (Lee Sin, Udyr, Rek'Sai, ~~Shyvana~~). His rework reduced his skill floor and increased his skill ceiling. He received too much unnecessary power and champions that could stop him effectively got nerfed hard at the same time.

AnhartaminMar 26, 20172 votes

[deleted]

Wet DrymanMar 26, 20173 votes

Lee Sin lost his ability to see stealth champions, thanks to that he could outduel Shaco if he had half a brain, Udyr and Shyvana due to their jungle clearing speed and counterjungling ability were a serious threat to Shaco because his clear time isn't the best and ironically he can't defend himself against counterjungling also they are much stronger duelists than him.

Since the devourer changes Udyr and Shyvana aren't power farmers (and even back then they had other viable builds that were used against likes of Shaco or Lee).

EDIT: Ignore the parts about Shyvana, it is not true.

Mira Arya EntheMar 26, 20171 votes

Excuse me but Shaco is Shyvana's hardest counter unless her team is on top of jungle collapses.

Wet DrymanMar 26, 20171 votes

Now she certainly isn't the best against him but before Shaco's rework she was well known Goofy Clowns huntress, it just required different playstyle against this guy.

Mira Arya EntheMar 26, 20171 votes

Despite being excellent at 1v1, counter jungling and counter ganks. Shyvana has a really weak time to invades between her 3rd and 5th camp. This is when Shaco invades. It destroys her. His boxes also make counter jungling hard.

Wet DrymanMar 26, 20171 votes

I don't know if you're talking about Shyvana before her nerfs and Gameplay Update or her current state because I stated that she isn't as great against him anymore as she used to be according to statistics and her pickrate.

As far as I remember, before her nerfs in Season 6 she was one of the worst Shaco matchups if she had good macro play. She was better duelist than him, she cleared faster, she could gank in the same rate as him but having more gold anyway due to her clear speed. Shaco is/was also very vulnerable when he is clearing his jungle and little invade from her could make his life miserable. Her clears were one of the healthiest too as she didn't need to even start with pots but this cheap regeneration item (but it stopped being a thing as potions were safer in later seasons). Going into direct fight with her was a death sentence. But then her nerfs and then rework happened, Shaco got reworked too, jungle got changed and she stopped being a threat to him. I was watching Shaclone and Pink Ward very often back then and they were dumpstered by Shyvanas in jungle most of the time.

I don't play or watch Shaco as much anymore because I hate his current state, I didn't see much Shyvanas too so it's hard to say from my side how things really look like now. What I would do is warding during your 3rd and 5th camp to be prepared for him, wait his Q and then engage him if you want as without Q+backstab proc he loses most of his damage. Change your yellow trinket to red one as fast as possible and try to counterjungle him a lot and disable his boxes with trinket/control ward. If your team sucks at warding or you have very bad time predicting his paths buy green trinket, it will help you and your team a lot more than red or blue counterparts. When you see him skullking near lanes go after him to countergank as he is extremely vulnerable to them. I do this stuff on every jungler I play when I'm facing Shaco and I got to say it works well.

Mira Arya EntheMar 26, 20171 votes

I am a Shyvana one trick with a 63% win rate in S6 on her. Prior to their reworks(I help inspired hers talking to meddler on the boards) she had a 44% win rate vs Shaco.

I beat a fair number of Shacos but I am in silver so they suck. In plat+ Shyvana loses to him. Shyvana beats jungle tanks and other slow farm junglers. She does okay vs power gankers if she counterganks as she wins 2v2s and 3v3s. She loses to people like Shaco, Elise, Yi circumstantially, Kha'Zix and Nidalee.

THE RlVER KlNGMar 25, 20172 votes

Same goes for Ahri, Fiora, Ivern, and Vi.

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20172 votes

Why do people still bring up Vi? That punch loving girl got nerfed recently, directly and indirectly and is now sitting on a winrate below 50%. So please explain to me why she deserves further nerfs....

TimX24968BMar 26, 20171 votes

her kit is just strong in assassin metas in general.

JhamSleazMar 26, 20171 votes

Play shaco then try complaining about him.

GlîtchyMar 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Play shaco then try complaining about him.

I tried him and I don't think he's healthy for gameplay.

JhamSleazMar 26, 20171 votes

Because he has stealth? Do you hate Twitch Vayne and Eve too?

GlîtchyMar 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because he has stealth? Do you hate Twitch Vayne and Eve too?

Twitch's stealth allows you to see him when he's close by, same with Evelynn, but Vayne's is a complete exception since she's only invisible for a brief moment, plus she can't 1-shot straight out of it.

Skins ProjectMar 26, 20173 votes

Just vayne.. Twitch and Eve aren't stealth. They're camouflage.

There was a pretty big update on that.

SnowFallMar 26, 20171 votes

Whenever his counters are getting nerfed RekSai LeeSin

Chembaron YamadaMar 26, 20173 votes

Nerfing RekSai , are you serious? She already got nerfed like hell, she was meant as a diver being a killing threat, you know.... a hunter invading your jungle and make you fear she is out there to eat you.

Now she is just building tank and hopes to survive to do her 1 job: being a knockup bot.... There is a reason they are doing a Shyvana style mini rework for her.

Mira Arya EntheMar 26, 20171 votes

Lee Sin is trash. LoL. Zero map awareness.