@meddler: id like to request some improvements for garen that help experienced players

Critmaster Garen··7 votes·748 views

##SPEED UP HIS Q ANIMATION WITH CHAMPION LEVEL

this is a big one, though not difficult to do.

quick auto attack animation cancel combos with his q used to be a staple on him before his visual update back in season 3 nerfed the animation on decisive strike. (i always thought visual updates shouldnt affect gameplay, yet it somehow managed to nerf the champion).

while i understand that a slow q animation adds counterplay to garen in lane, by giving his opponents extra reaction time in situations where they cant avoid dealing with him, its one of the most limiting factors of his kit around mid and lategame. any time you want to interrupt an enemy ability, or you want to make a play on an out of position opponent, it takes a small amount of extra time to execute the animation. extra time that gives enemies the opportunity to cram in an exhaust, a shield or a heal. or a mobility tool to get them out of range. it seems like a small issue, but when playing the champion youll notice that its really frustrating and often prevents you from taking opportunities you should be able to take. at worst it effectively punishes you in situations where you should be rewarded for quick reaction times (cancelling or preventing an enemy ability immediately like Katarina ult or shunpo).


edit: allow him to activate his W during his q animation! right now this isnt possible and it makes his q even more awkward!


##REDUCE THE DEACTIVATION TIMER OF HIS SPIN FROM 1 SECOND TO 0.5 SECONDS

this might not sound like much, but it would help with preparing caster minions for lasthitting under the turret in lane. a single spin tick on the backline minions prepares them for lasthitting early game. but two spin ticks are too much. its difficult to use the spin to prep caster minions because of how you cant cancel it right away after applying a single spin tick.


##IMPROVE THE A.I. OF HIS VILLAIN MECHANIC

right now the way villainy tracks carry threats on the enemy team is by checking which enemy champion has made the most kills on garens teammates within the last 5 minutes. obviously this isnt enough of a metric to single out the largest carry threats. the mark often lands on an entirely wrong target.

you have the tech to track so many stats in the game.

champion dps, total gold value of their stats, total gold per champion, burst spikes of single abilities, buffs (red/blue), damage mitigated (the largest threat CAN be an enemy support if he criples your own team too much), and so much more. if someone would sit down and just work some more factors than champion kills into the ability in how it choses its target, then it could be improved by a LOT.

19 Comments

Ahris5 votes

You are straight out buffing him instead of actually buffing him for skill use.

I think making his villain mechanic similar to kindred would be cool. Giving him some bonuses after he executes that villain such as increased slow resistents.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Wait...I’m agreeing with you?

Is the world ending soon or something? [slayer-jinx-wink]

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WlxY7z0z,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-11-28T17:37:57.138+0000)

Wait...I’m agreeing with you?

Is the world ending soon or something? [slayer-jinx-wink]

I dont rlly give bad ideas.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

while the first two points might not sound very significant to most people, these changes would most definitely improve his effectiveness at higher ratings. and those types of buffs are the ones he needs the most.

xGunna11 votes

he needs a leap + skillshot aoe ultimate that hurts whoever closer to the giant sword

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

he needs a leap + skillshot aoe ultimate that hurts whoever closer to the giant sword

he really only needs small mechanic improivements imo. to be able to do things that are normal for most competitive champions.

i also think there is something wrong or awkward with how his q targets enemies. it might be bugged or just an awkward side effect of its mechanics, but it sometimes seems to target the wrong unit. when you click on a target outside your auto attack range and activate your q it sometimes just hits a random minion next to you.

xGunna11 votes

he has trah mechanics he needs a new one and aoe ult sword like leona

xGunna11 votes

he needs a dash or leap to be high skill cap champ

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

For Q: I don't think this is a buff for experienced players. If anything, it's mostly a buff to newbies who are going to use it very reactively.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

For Q: I don't think this is a buff for experienced players. If anything, it's mostly a buff to newbies who are going to use it very reactively.

no, this is definitely a neccessary buff for experienced players.

new players dont auto attack or animation cancel. and new players who play against him dont react to garen q fast enough to matter.

a bad riven for example will always get hit by a garen q. but at higher ratings, they will react with a stun to cancel the animation or with an e to absorb the damage and dash out of range before it connects.

while this is acceptable during the lane phase, where his opponent cant avoid dealing with him, it needs to not be an issue for garen around midgame anymore.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

?? That's why Riven is a high skill-cap champ. She has those tools, and you have to be good to use them properly.

As Ahris pointed out, you can't just give straight insta-silence buffs and claim it's promoting high-skill play. That's just a much stronger ability all around. It doesn't have anything to do with player skill.

I agree with you that Garen doesn't currently have any high-skill mechanics, but insta-silence is not a high-skill mechanic, either. It simply doesn't solve the problem you are trying to address.

Mysticman891 votes

(Might argue that hitting W right before large burst/cc favours high skill over panic use, but that's about it for high skill mechanics.)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

(Might argue that hitting W right before large burst/cc favours high skill over panic use, but that's about it for high skill mechanics.)

not just burst, but also cc abilities. the first .75 seconds of his w give 60% tenacity and damage reduction.

Mysticman891 votes

/cc

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

oh, nvm. overlooked that. but yea it makes a large difference how you use the w.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

?? That's why Riven is a high skill-cap champ. She has those tools, and you have to be good to use them properly.

As Ahris pointed out, you can't just give straight insta-silence buffs and claim it's promoting high-skill play. That's just a much stronger ability all around. It doesn't have anything to do with player skill.

I agree with you that Garen doesn't currently have any high-skill mechanics, but insta-silence is not a high-skill mechanic, either. It simply doesn't solve the problem you are trying to address.

like i said. during the lane phase the long animation time is fine.

but midgame it just cripples his effectiveness too much even in situations that should favour him. like getting the drop of an out of position opponent, or silencing a flanking assassin.

at that point the riven shouldnt be getting caught by the garen in melee without his silence being on cooldown. she should be focusing on other targets or be more mindful of his cooldowns in her engages on garen.

EbonyBladeJ881 votes

Okay, I'll give my two cents on each point. First, I can largely agree with the Q change, but I'm also going to offer a small counter-argument regarding it.

Take Darius 's Q. Before the Juggernaut Update back in 5.16 (I think it was 5.16), his Q was instant. Then, when that update rolled along, it was given a small "Wind-Up" time, let's call it. According to the tool-tip it's a "Short Delay" and the LOL Wiki says it's a 0.75 second delay before he swings. Since he and Garen are often compared to one another, I like to think of Garen 's Q animation as the "Wind-Up" time similar to the case of Darius' Q. I think it's been said before, and probably will continue to be said, but the Animation time, or "Wind-Up" time as I call it, is meant to provide a form of counter-play. If the enemy can react fast enough to interrupt, then I suppose they deserve their chance at retaliation. If not, it's on their own heads for NOT attempting to interrupt the Garen as he strikes.

In regards to your edit/add-on about being (or not being) able to use his W WHILST performing (I assume this is your meaning) the attack portion of his Q animation, I'll once again look at Darius. As near on as I know, he can't activate HIS W (Crippling Strike) while using HIS Q at the same time either. I could be wrong, I'd have to test this in a Bot-game or the Practice Tool or something.

That's the counter-argument. Now the agreements on this point.

I can understand where you're coming from with the things you mention here:

"any time you want to interrupt an enemy ability, or you want to make a play on an out of position opponent, it takes a small amount of extra time to execute the animation. extra time that gives enemies the opportunity to cram in an exhaust, a shield or a heal. or a mobility tool to get them out of range."

You mention it yourself that your target can often use the animation time to squeeze in some kind of stopper or interrupting ability which then completely causes the attack to fizzle. It's happened to me countless times, and I've said my fair share of "Choice Words" when it happens. So I can see and agree with WHY you would want this change implemented.


Now your second suggestion.

This one I can agree because during Laning phase, it can irk you to no end to be under your Turret, spinning to clear a wave in "relative" safety and those juicy casters took just ONE tick too many and no your last-hitting routine/opportunities just got shot out the window. But I also think that it could also screw up his clearing of waves come the late-game, possibly even mid-game, though I MIGHT be reading into it too much OR misinterpreting what you're asking for.


The third.

YES! SO MUCH YES! There are times when an enemy could have ALL the kills in the game, yet that one guy who got 1 lucky kill on a team-mate (Or myself) is designated as the Villain and it completely and utterly, as stubborn as I can make it sound in words, will NOT change it's target! Sometimes I think it's a Glitch or Bug, but that's just me.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I'll give my two cents on each point. First, I can largely agree with the Q change, but I'm also going to offer a small counter-argument regarding it.

Take Darius 's Q. Before the Juggernaut Update back in 5.16 (I think it was 5.16), his Q was instant. Then, when that update rolled along, it was given a small "Wind-Up" time, let's call it. According to the tool-tip it's a "Short Delay" and the LOL Wiki says it's a 0.75 second delay before he swings. Since he and Garen are often compared to one another, I like to think of Garen 's Q animation as the "Wind-Up" time similar to the case of Darius' Q. I think it's been said before, and probably will continue to be said, but the Animation time, or "Wind-Up" time as I call it, is meant to provide a form of counter-play. If the enemy can react fast enough to interrupt, then I suppose they deserve their chance at retaliation. If not, it's on their own heads for NOT attempting to interrupt the Garen as he strikes.

if were just going by thematics, i could also make the counter argument that garen spins faster with higher champion level. it would make sense that he also hits faster with his q.

but i really dont think the comparison to darius and just to create similarities for the sake of it is a good argument. garens kit should be considered on its own, when it comes to its mechanics and not being held back just to create artificial parrallels to another champion.

on the contrary, most of riots effords so far have been focused to make the champions feel and play differently.

darius q is hardly comparable to garens q though and has a different function to begin with.

for darius to be able to spread 5 bleed stacks to multiple opponents with his q and be able to heal off them is massive. hitting multiple enemies with the outer edge of his q doesnt just deal extra damage, but also sets up his chain dunk.

darius has a much larger carry potential than garen, literally being able to plow through an entire team in his best case scenario. thats why his q also has more counterplay added. in an ideal scenario, darius q has a lot more impact than garens q.

(thinking about it, speeding up darius q just slightly might actually be the buff he needs right now to get him out of the ditch hes been sitting in these past few month.)

thats not to say garens q doesnt have its own advatages. and while i agree with the counterplay argument during the lane phase, around midgame its difficult enough as it is to get the drop on an opponent and stay in range of him. his q animation shouldnt additionally hamper him, when he does nor prevent him from taking opportunities like locking mobile champions in place who try to dive in and out of your team or quickly interrupting enemy abilities.

In regards to your edit/add-on about being (or not being) able to use his W WHILST performing (I assume this is your meaning) the attack portion of his Q animation, I'll once again look at Darius. As near on as I know, he can't activate HIS W (Crippling Strike) while using HIS Q at the same time either. I could be wrong, I'd have to test this in a Bot-game or the Practice Tool or something.

especially with the addition of the mini parry to garens w, the timing on it became more important than ever. being locked out of the ability even just for the duration of his q animation can make a huge difference in a fight.

This one I can agree because during Laning phase, it can irk you to no end to be under your Turret, spinning to clear a wave in "relative" safety and those juicy casters took just ONE tick too many and no your last-hitting routine/opportunities just got shot out the window. But I also think that it could also screw up his clearing of waves come the late-game, possibly even mid-game, though I MIGHT be reading into it too much OR misinterpreting what you're asking for.

when youre activating your spin, youre locked out of being able to cancel it for a full second right now.

im just asking to reduce that timer to 0.5 seconds. so you can activate the spin and immeditely cancel it after 0.5 seconds instead of 1 full second.

this means you can use the spin more easily to prep caster minions for lasthitting under your turret. you spin on the caster minions for 1 spin tick, then cancel the spin. this means theyre in range for last hitting after 1 turret shot.

right now, this is difficult to do. you have to awkwardly spin in and then quickly move back out to not accidentally apply a second spin tick to the minions. because the damage would be too much and the turret would kill off the minions.

you can experiment with this in a practise game if i didnt explain it well enough.

i also suspect that this could give him an additional auto attack animation cancel. doing a auto attack, spin + spin cancel, into auto attack might apply more damage in a short window at the cost of overall more sustained damage from keeping the spin running. this could be useful in clutch situations. im not sure if it would even work though until id have played with that change.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

riots balance team has been repeatedly trying to make garen more viable at higher ratings without making him overwhelmingly strong at lower ratings. with varying success.

most of which they came up with were just number buffs to his kit, when they have so many ways to buff him by improving some of his animations and his micromanagement that would help him be more successful at higher ratings without affecting low ratings much. because new players and lower ranked players simply dont make use of these mechanics yet and dont understand their importance.

they dont even need to give him a large rework imo that changes parts of his kit. last i read, the rioter in charge said that he doesnt have any idea what to do with garen anyway. this sounds to me like a larger risk for everything going wrong than any improvement that change could bring.

they could literally buff his kit for skilled play by making parts of it more responsive at least at later phases of the game.

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