Melee vs Ranged AD: Equivalent of Exchange

Vore Monster··5 votes·1,118 views

When it comes to a discussion of "Melee vs. Ranged AD; who is more viable?" The answer usually comes to Ranged champions winning against melee, despite given circumstances. But why?** The reason is their lack of equivalent exchange.**

To what I understand, *Riot has attempted to balance these two types of carries through a form of mobility. Melee champions are more mobile than ranged champions; allowing them to get in close as fast as possible to dish out damage. But this is flawed: ----------------------------- As we know; most melee champions have a form of dash, slow, or a speed boost to get them closer to their victims. This system works and allows melee carries to get into an even fight against ranged carries while taking as little damage from afar as possible to simulate a fight of "Who crits, scales, or hits hardest?"

Recently, this has changed. Riot has given more and more ranged champions different forms of slows, dashes, roots, and knock-backs to prevent melee champions from getting too close or causing these champions to waste their forms of gap-closing. This allows the ranged carries to dish out damage while taking little to no damage when the melee champion reaches them. While this can be called "Kiting" and can require skill of the ranged champion player (And fault of the melee player), these two instances cancel each other out in the long run in terms of even skill and strategy. -----------------------------* Let's put two random League champions,* one melee and one ranged; and have no abilities or passive*, against each other. Who will win? The ranged champion. Why? The ranged champion attacks earlier than the melee champion, usually just as fast and hard, if not faster and harder. This is where the equivalent of exchange needs to be placed. To make both ranged and melee champions have consideration in play, you need to give one type something greater than the other, as well as take away the opposite. This is where my theory comes in:

When AD carries are picked, they usually are looked at for three main things; their kit, attack speed, and attack damage scaling. In the current situation, both melee and ranged AD carries have similar scaling per level in both areas while their kit's utility cancels each other out, making ranged champions a priority. To balance the pick out, melee carries should scale significantly well per level in either attack speed or damage while scaling less in the other stat chosen. As for ranged carries, the opposite must be taken into account. If melee carries scale better in damage per level than attack speed per level, ranged carries should scale** better with attack speed per level and less in damage per level.** -----------------------------* "But what about being hit before melee champions can reach the attacking ranged champion? How does this help?" While I know ***Riot *** understands higher armor scaling should be given to compensate this situation; the above theory allows for both champion types to have consideration when being picked. But let me flesh it out a bit for those still asking.

Let's place these two champions without abilities or passives against each other again. The melee champion now has significantly more damage but less attack speed, and the ranged champion the opposite. The ranged carry will hit very fast and possibly knock the champion down to 2/3 or 1/2 HP before the melee champion reaches them. When they do, he is going to take less time taking the ranged carry out to 1/2 HP by hitting them harder, while the melee carry is taken down to 1/3 HP during that time. Given that the melee carry has higher natural armor scaling, they both will eventually hit near-equivalent levels of Hp as the deciding factor comes from critical hits or the ranged champion's ability to kite or the melee's ability to avoid being kited which, given their kits, comes from the player's skill and not the used champion. -----------------------------*

I hope to hear feedback and opinions on this from both the players and Riot staff. -----------------------------*

The fact is they intentionally keep melee worse because they believe ranged takes more skill than melee. Ask ghostcrawler

This is accounting for games which players of equal skill are matched against each other, which is how the current system works. If the ranged carry is less skilled on the champion than the average player of that skill level, the melee carry will have the advantage. ***But over time, this evens out as the ranged player grows in skill and understands stronger plays. ***

Cost + Effort = Reward, this is the balancing equation, your input must match your output, you can't get something for nothing, High Skill = High Reward, I would say champions like Riven or Syndra fall into this category, meanwhile champions like Ryze exist, Low Skill - High Reward, He can 1v1 and even if you land every hit, you win, skill is not a factor, cost is not a factor, it's very simply press the buttons and do the damages. Why play Riven or Syndra if you can play Ryze? The only answer which is not good enough, is flexibility, the one advantage is the fact that this game is not a 1v1 all in tournament, because if this was a 1v1 all in tournament Ryze, Jayce, Pantheon, would all be pick or ban, and champions like Riven would be deleted to make room for Ryze's father and Bizzaro Jayce, the new champions, similar to the current editions but less effort and mana costs.

Low Risk- High Reward is a foo strategy to get new players invested into the game. It allows newer players to feel good about themselves when playing, and wanting to keep going. But what Riot might already not know, or what us players currently do not know, is that a champion like Ryze has a strong counter-play (Or should have) against him. Balance in this part of ANY game should allow higher-skilled players to be able to hold easy victory over these Foo Strategies. Thus, making this strategy useless in higher-tiered gameplay.

Jinx is an excellent look at a Foo Strategy gone right. Her kit allows newer players to get a feel for an R-ADC without having to get thrown into hard kiting or positioning. But champions like Vayne or Twitch easily knock Jinx out of the park because they have a higher risk-reward factor for them. Jinx will eventually be dropped by a player for another of better reward like Vayne and Twitch.

11 Comments

FalconPawwwwnch2 votes

You're acting as if Riot doesn't know this. They know how to make melee vs. range work. They've tried balancing the two for years now; it's not that they still don't know how to make melee damage competitive. You're not giving their balance team enough credit.

The fact is they intentionally keep melee worse because they believe ranged takes more skill than melee. Ask ghostcrawler

Vore Monster1 votes

I understand and respect the balance team. I also know ranged champions can require more skill (Look at Vayne and Urgot). But this is accounting for games which players of equal skill are matched against each other, which is how the current system works. If the ranged carry is less skilled on the champion than the average player of that skill level, the melee carry will have the advantage. But over time, this evens out as the ranged player grows in skill and understands stronger plays.

The Red Warden2 votes

If you ever want to see the problem in action, play Olaf or Darius (Probably the 2 most focused champions in the "once I get in melee range you're f---ed but I have to walk to you first" category) against Lucian. Tell me how much fun you had as the melees in this situation and how much fun you had as Lucian in the situation. Am I right when I say that being the melees was infuriating and felt like you get cheated while as Lucian you felt like you were on easy mode?

The problem stems from Ashe and Ezreal. Now it was these champions that started it because of their insane kiting ability, before every melee started being introduced with a gap-closer these 2 were immortal to melees since the could always and forever kite with their slows(Ashe) and blinks(Ez). So what was Riots solution? To start making melee characters with dashes of course. Well that may have fixed the problem a bit but it added another. How do the ranged adc's without insane kiting now prevent their death against the dashing melees? They have them mobility, or massive cc of course. But wait now melees need even more mobility to keep up, and the cycle continued.

Really this entire thing started with Riot's earlier decision to start giving melees too much ability to jump on adcs. Which eventually leads to the current problem, the only way melees can be viable right now is if they have uncounterable mobility also meaning marksmen need just as much too. All ending up with the fact that almost every champion without mobility or broken mechanics( Zilean, Morgana) is near unplayable.

I am just waiting until after Kalista and her infinite dashes passive is released they release the infinite dashing melee so that atleast one melee is finally able to kill her.

Fraggleroc1 votes

The imbalance is amplified when old melee champs such as Gangplank with really bad mobility is pit against all the new champs.

Vore Monster1 votes

This is another thing that needs to be looked at and changed, but with the exchange theory; their ability to survive and duel ranged champions will improve. I'll work on adding to mobile-less melee champions to this explanation. But kiting will always exist and it's the player's job to recognize when they can't keep up and need to back off.

ThePurpleKnight1 votes

Equivalent exchange goes beyond just ranged and melees, the lack of is the reason why games are so poorly balanced. Jinx is a good example of what you were talking about mixing with what I am talking about. Jinx has 130% attack speed for as long as she is in combat, and it has no mana cost or Cool down.

A ranged champion should probably have less than a melee due to having the advantage of range, having poke = lesser all in right? So Fiora an all in champion with no poke WHO MOST CONSIDER STRONG, has a stacking 120% attack speed buff that lasts a duration, has a mana cost and a cool down. Now yes Fiora's does also offer movement speed, but let me remind you, Jinx's offers 10% extra damage and more range for harass if you simply toggle it. You do not know how many times I've seen Jinx face tank people like Riven or Shyvana, or another bruiser or tank simply because they are stronger, not to mention 130% AS= training wheels for kiting. Though it is what I expect of a training wheel champion.

Anyways to further what I was saying

Cost + Effort = Reward, this is the balancing equation, your input must match your output, you can't get something for nothing, High Skill = High Reward, I would say champions like Riven or Syndra fall into this category, meanwhile champions like Ryze exist, Low Skill - High Reward, He can 1v1 and even if you land every hit, you win, skill is not a factor, cost is not a factor, it's very simply press the buttons and do the damages. Why play Riven or Syndra if you can play Ryze? The only answer which is not good enough, is flexibility, the one advantage is the fact that this game is not a 1v1 all in tournament, because if this was a 1v1 all in tournament Ryze, Jayce, Pantheon, would all be pick or ban, and champions like Riven would be deleted to make room for Ryze's father and Bizzaro Jayce, the new champions, similar to the current editions but less effort and mana costs.

Vore Monster1 votes

The examples you have given are a failed attempt at Riot's part of a "Foo Strategy." I am not directly blaming Riot for this, but saying they have yet to offer counter-play.

**Low Risk- High Reward ** is a foo strategy to get new players invested into the game. It allows newer players to feel good about themselves when playing, and wanting to keep going. But what Riot might already not know, or what us players currently do not know, is that a champion like Ryze has a strong counter-play (Or should have) against him. Balance in this part of ANY game should allow higher-skilled players to be able to hold easy victory over these Foo Strategies. Thus, making this strategy useless in higher-tiered gameplay.

Jinx is an excellent look at a Foo Strategy gone right. Her kit allows newer players to get a feel for an R-ADC without having to get thrown into hard kiting or positioning. But champions like **Vayne or Twitch **easily knock Jinx out of the park because they have a higher risk-reward factor for them. **Jinx **will eventually be **dropped **by a player for another of better reward like Vayne and Twitch.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Several mistakes done in your post:

1.) You are talking about a full - semi full build status. Meele characters usually have much higher base /ability values which allow them to easily win any match up until minute 25. After that point gold (items) start to facture in and shift the balance.

2.) Kiting and gapclosing does not counter itself out. Auto attacking (Kalista not considered) forces you to stand still, thus a carry will loose it's range advantage with each attack he/ she does or ability he/she uses.

Most meele champions also have a "light" gacloser build in their abilities which moves them closer to their target while using the ability to cancel this (E.g: Udyr's E).

3.) League is a teamgame. It's not a carry vs a bruiser. It's rock paper scissors with a twist. There are burst mages which can 1HKO carries (Syndra..), or at least deal severe damage from safe distance (Xerath). The very same mages however perform much worse against meeles (e.g. Udyr... Fizz...Riven).

Comparing carries and meeles (bruisers) only shows utter disregard of overall balance.

Vore Monster1 votes
  1. Kiting and gap closing don't counter, but forms of CC stated above do. When a champion has a speed boost, another champion with a slow or root can negate this boost until they both die off. Given melee vs ranged ADC, melee usually has a boost that can be negated by the ranged carry's slow or root.

  2. League is a team game? So that's what those other 4 players are there for. I understand this and know that team strategies and tactics are a big factor into the game. I haven't taken state into mages or types of kits because that isn't what this thread is about. It's not about the overall balance in the game, it's about the advantage a ranged adc has over a melee adc (Not bruiser, Adc or fighters) and how to balance out flat, kit-less damage to allow skill to have a higher factor in the decision.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Something that further compounds the problem is the presence of Crit Chance in the game, which inherently favors Ranged champs because they can get more auto attacks off before dying than a melee champ can assuming both are focused as much as possible, both by each team's offensive divers and each team's defensive peelers. If both teams play properly, melee carries will deal less damage than ranged carries unless the melee carries have more stats. Tryndamere and Yasuo are exceptions to this, as both champs are able to get up to 100% crit chance relatively easily without having to make too many sacrifices in their builds, but both have their own problems, with Yasuo having a kit that is otherwise broken and largely unbalanceable, at least with the doubled crit chance, and Tryndamere has one of the most volatile laning phases in the game with his crits with his fury, representing one of the only laning phases in the entire game that is dependent almost entirely on crit chance.

Riot has also tried to make melee carries viable through itemization (ie. Tiamat/Hydra) and through innate steroids, but these steroids just make these champs balls of stats that sacrifice some gameplay for their playstyle, and Riot has wanted to get away from having abilities that give raw stats, and replace them with abilities that give real gameplay.

More from Gameplay

More by Vore Monster