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Why are silver bolts buffed?

Vore Monster··91 votes·6,476 views

I'm really curious to why Vayne had her silver bolts buffed in %hp true damage, capping at 12% max rank.

People are saying that the base damage being removed is a strong nerf (it's a nice nerf, don't get me wrong) but she will still shred tanks and squishy champions alike at a faster rate now.

The overall change is in the right direction, pushing her further into late game and reducing her old bullying potential in the laning phase. But I feel 12% is slightly on the strong side as it deals more damage than it used to against squishies in the late game. But why not make it 10% to level out her dueling potential against the squishy champions while still keeping her niche?

Can someone give me some insight to this change and clear things up?

EDIT: can we change the % hp to cap at 10%? This allows her to deal more damage to tanker champions while giving her a balanced fight against squishies with around 2000 hp late game?

152 Comments

Rebonack51 votes

She's losing the flat damage and gaining more %HP damage.

That's on top of the raw AD she lost from her base/scaling stats.

Basically, Riot wanted to have her more tightly focused on her Tank-Busting niche. That's sorta the theme with all the ADC changes, to make very well defined reasons to pick each of them.

Vore Monster11 votes

Thanks for actually clarifying the changes. The way they posted the changes on the thread was a bit confusing

Rebonack25 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for actually clarifying the changes. The way they posted the changes on the thread was a bit confusing

Also worth pointing out that BotRK's OnHit damage is being reduced from 8% to 6%. That'll be a pretty noticeable indirect nerf to Vayne.

Vore Monster4 votes

I forgot about that, at least they are trying to push her into late game more than she already is, the botrk nerf might hit her a bit hard if she rushed it

Dominick Destine40 votes

Riot loves Vayne, Lee and Riven.

Expect no nerfs to the overpowered trio.

A Miss Fortune6 votes

It's almost like It's not a joke anymore. Riot can't flat out nerf champions who are obviously overpowering and even if they're not overpowering how much the community absolutely hates them should be a good enough reason to at least change their kits around.

Urgonnalearn2day3 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rHAndNw6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T21:45:07.747+0000)

It's almost like It's not a joke anymore. Riot can't flat out nerf champions who are obviously overpowering and even if they're not overpowering how much the community absolutely hates them should be a good enough reason to at least change their kits around.

Bluntly put the community is more of an issue than Riot's balancing. None of the people commenting have any clue what the changes really mean. The few that do will be quiet because its a competitive advantage.

Even the pros have mostly wrong on balance.

coevke2 votes

How is Lee op rn? Riven is strong, wouldn't say op. Vayne is meh.

A Miss Fortune13 votes

Even Riot agreed Lee is overpowered but the only reason he's not pick or ban is because of champions like Elise, Vi, Gragas, Sejuani becoming super powerful too (and he being good to counter a lot of them), and every time Lee is nerfed Reddit fanboys absolutely break down with cries and complaints.

iamleburk2 votes

Sejuani? i thought she was pretty weak atm

Keitron6 votes

Riven has a 55% winrate in diamond with one of the highest pick rates, vayne even higher of course with that comes obvious lower winrate still these champions are overpowered. Lee is flat out strong and what he is saying that lee was buffed from not being played for a couple of weeks and there was actual diversity but riot hates that.

kirbyzama11 votes

You realize that Riven has received one buffs since her major changes at the start of season 4 and every other change was a nerf. They have ranged from ult cd nerf shield duration nerfs damage nerfs missile speed nerfs stat nerfs to ms and so on. But that means nothing to you I assume. Jinx is another champ that people say never gets nerfed "cause she sells skins" Literally received one buff since release and it was her passive procing on inhibs. Every single time she shows up inn the notes its a nerf and they are usually quite large ones too. Vayne? She was irrelevant in competitive for most of the year and while she was always popular in soloQ her success is certainly skewed recently and even then she is still getting at least small nerfs but at the point she became OP this rework was already in the works so Riot didn't want to act to harshly. Lee? He was under-preforming for a lot of the year too. Him and elise. Both were nerfed constantly because people complain way too much about champs that aren't even relevant anymore just because they find them "unfun" to play against.

Finally Riot did the right thing and helped both out because nerfs should never be made to remove champs from play but i assume you just want people to stop playing champs you don't like because everyone needs to cater to your sensibilities.
Decrit4 votes

ciclejerks like the one above is the fuel that keeps the boards servers going. but yeah i agree with you.

Lissama10 votes

Bcz rito loves cancerous mechanics

Narasimha9 votes

Because the changes make sense if you look at them from an unbiased view. Now it less damage earlier, and more damage later. Sounds like EXACTLY the kind of thing a late game carry wants. It's also important to note that it distincts her more from Kog now, who has for all intents and purposes becomes a magical machine gun emplacement.

Vore Monster1 votes

It's a good change, and I understand it's in the right direction of what she needs, but I feel that 12% might make her a bit too strong in the late game, not giving other late carries a dueling chance. I feel 10% would put her in a perfect spot to take out tanks quickly and still give squishies an advantage for being squishy against her, y'know?

I haven't seen any games with her changes yet, so I'll need to just wait and see.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Other late game carries shouldn't have a dueling chance? She's a DUELER, the best dueler in the game, next to Zed and Jax.

3TWarrior4 votes

except zed isn't a dueler, he's an assassin and very good at taking out single targets

actually, if you want the best dueler, that would have to be khazix because not even a tank can survive his isolated target damage but that's case specific, just like jax

zed is good at trades in and out of teamfights

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Except Zed is a dueler, I don't know why you believe otherwise.

Every Assassin is good at picking off targets thats not a trait only Zed has.

And Kha'zix can be easily outplayed in a duel, (Especially but champions like Zed, Vayne and Jax)

Anidan5 votes

He doesn't excel at duels because he has little beyond mobility to help mitigate damage, and little beyond his initial burst to deal substantial damage. Kha'zix is a better duelist because of consistent isolated damage (if we assume isolation, which was the case) and he has stealth to make you basically temporarily unable to damage him reliably unless you pop a pink ward or an upgraded red trinket. Zed doesn't want an extended encounter while Kha'zix enjoys them. Pretty much every duelist that comes to mind enjoys longer fights, not shorter and burstier ones like Zed.

Zed isn't really a good duelist when you start comparing him to actual duelists. He wants a 1v1, but he wants to end it fast - like every other assassin (barring maybe Talon who doesn't mind teamfights so much due to AoE damage); if he can't end it fast then he won't want to do it, while a duelist can take advantage of even that fact and challenge him.

Also, most of Zed's damage is going to be in melee range, so there isn't actually a ton Zed can do to outplay Kha'zix unless he just wants to spam shurikens, which is less dueling and more hit and run.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

You don't play Zed often due you?

1: His mobility allows him to lower damage dealt to him by dodging 2: He can dodge huge nukes with his ult 3: Idk what your talking about he does perfectly find in an extended fight he just kites them around with shadows 4: He'll end it fast either way, he's Zed... Don't expect to live long against him. 5: And no? He has a crap ton of damage outside of melee range, you kite the champion, land your combo go in, auto a few shadow out, and land another Q e, dead. 6: I'm just going to assume you never play zed, and or have never played against a good zed.

Anidan5 votes

He can do all this fancy stuff with his shadows... unless someone just walks away or uses an actual nuke on him, or actually stays in face and forces him to duel, like a duelist. He isn't going to get to pull this this stuff off for any extended time against actual duelists like Jax or Fiora who have methods of staying on his face, or champions like Vayne who don't care if he tries to do fancy shit with shadows because she's ranged, and has stealth to juke and reposition in a way he can't do much of anything about. He doesn't excel at actual duels. He can choose to burst, or he can choose to stay safer.

If he wants to burst, he'll use his ult. If he wants to survive and juke, he'll hold his ult. In the latter, he isn't killing someone that doesn't feel like dying to him because he has no way to make them stay near him, and in the former they now have free reign to ult him in return. His outplay potential only matters if he's going against someone with a kit we're allowing his kit to outplay. You're not out-dueling Jax, Fiora, Yi, or Vayne (especially later on).

And then we get to other people who also really enjoy 1v1s as much or more... like the wonderful Malzahar, and Annie pretty well shits on him (as she does most assassins). Plus Kayle just happens to wreck his face something fierce.

Zed can force a 1v1 or escape a 1v1 easily, but in a straight-up duel he will lose to a lot of more powerful duelists. Zed isn't some 1v1 king. He's great at forcing 1v1s at bad times for the enemy, but on equal footing he loses duels to champions more akin to dueling. There's a difference between great at picks and actually being a great duelist on his own.

Plus then there's legendary shit like 6 item Poppy. You aren't dueling that and winning.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

You underestimate a good Zed wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to much.

You also don't seem to play the game to much...

Anidan6 votes

Similarly, you're over-estimated a good Zed too much. There's only so much he can do to someone who can man-fight better than him and stay in his face.

rinsujo2 votes

The other thing to consider is that unless the Vayne isn't maxing bolts last, that 12% isnt going to come up until mid-late anyway.

And if she isn't maxing bolts last... or do you max that second? I don't play carries.

Sinlaire3 votes

she maxes bolts first.

Kitten of Evil4 votes

It's a bit weird though, since the Silver Bolts will no longer deal flat damage, but will have a minimum damage of 40/60/80/100/120.

I mean, to a squishy champion this won't reduce the damage much at all. 120 is 12% of 1000, and most champions have more than that.

It seems like, if anything, it actually strongly buffs her against tanks without really easing up on squishies. I might be comparing the wrong things, though.

Vore Monster3 votes

It's so her true damage doesn't fall off against early game squishies and low hp champions/monsters.

I'm more afraid of the fact she deals more damage against champions with 2000 hp or more than she used to. 2000 is the normal hp of a late game squishy

KONO RUBICK DA4 votes

{quoted}

It's so her true damage doesn't fall off against early game squishies and low hp champions/monsters.

I'm more afraid of the fact she deals more damage against champions with 2000 hp or more than she used to. 2000 is the normal hp of a late game squishy

yep, riot wants her to be even more cancerous in late game

PDE5 Inhibitors4 votes

Their goal was to remove the base damage so that she doesn't kill squishies as fast.

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhibitors,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rHAndNw6,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-10-29T22:42:29.268+0000)

Their goal was to remove the base damage so that she doesn't kill squishies as fast.

it does more damage after you have 1500 hp

Drakylon4 votes

Doing some math,

Vayne's Silver Bolts was buffed by 4% at max rank, but lost 60 base damage. If x is the maximum health of the target, the solution to .04x = 60 would give the threshold health where the new iteration of the skill outdamages the current one. Doing the calculations, we get x = 1500; so any target with 1500 or more health will take more damage from the new iteration than the current one. This is literally every champion by level 18, even if they build 0 health items. Early game her Silver Bolts are doing considerably less damage though. Only problem is, Vayne destroys squishies anyway thanks to her ridiculous AD steroid.

TyroneWatermelon4 votes

because riot promote no counterplay toxic gameplay

ForgiveColour3 votes

she lost base dmg

Vore Monster4 votes

She still does more damage to champions with 1500 hp than she did pre-change, by 20. It only goes up from there.

It's an overall buff unless they change it to 10% at max rank

Red Ryu2 votes

{quoted}

She still does more damage to champions with 1500 hp than she did pre-change, by 20. It only goes up from there.

It's an overall buff unless they change it to 10% at max rank

Well sort of.

Her damage to squishies/early game went down which is not something I would ignore.

A lot of people hate that she can be a tank buster while also a strong duelist so that dueling part got nerfed a bit.

My Waifu Vanilla4 votes

She is also losing like 18 base AD late game from that scaling nerf which will be very noticeable vs squishies.

Grunt6662 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rHAndNw6,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-29T22:35:31.805+0000)

She is also losing like 18 base AD late game from that scaling nerf which will be very noticeable vs squishies.

Are you high or do you believe the crap you post? you understand that 18 dmg late game is almost meaningless on anyone? After even base armour it is like 12 dmg at most, and champions have like 1700+ hp...... adc are autoing for like 350 with crits over 800....and you are telling me TWELVE DMG IS REALLY IMPORTANT LOL. Come on man late game squishies die in 4 hits 12 dmg is meaningless unless it is one of those bizzarre rare spots somoen would have lived with 12 or less hp which is like almost never.....

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

2.0 Attack speed, crit, 18x2, 36 x 2, 72 damage, lost EVERY SECOND. Thats a lot

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

on an IE crit 18x2.5 is 45 damage that just vanished from your auto attack....on every one of them. You can make the argument that 18 damage does not mean anything if it was an ability we were talking about on a longer cd but this is an auto attack that is going to be flying out at roughly 2 a second which means if you happen to have 100% or get lucky enough to crit every hit you are straight up losing 90 dps.

Vore Monster2 votes

It was really only nerfed early game. It's nice to have, but she's going to do more than she used to once she hits rank 5 in bolts and squishies surpass the 1500 mark in hp

This makes her dueling stronger once that happens

Red Ryu2 votes

{quoted}

It was really only nerfed early game. It's nice to have, but she's going to do more than she used to once she hits rank 5 in bolts and squishies surpass the 1500 mark in hp

This makes her dueling stronger once that happens

That is fine if the emphasis is her late game.

imo of course.

Skias3 votes

{quoted}

She still does more damage to champions with 1500 hp than she did pre-change, by 20. It only goes up from there.

It's an overall buff unless they change it to 10% at max rank

Her competition got much better compensations then her. I mean, caits changes make it so vayne wont even be able to lane against her without dying.

g07h4xf003 votes

Tanks are not allowed to be viable for more than a few patches. Since they spend too many patches in Season 5 being good (3... 4??) they need to get EXTRA FUCKED next season. The silver bolts change are one of MANY examples of these such changes.

3TWarrior2 votes

and One for All was a decent example of this

any tanky champion with enough range could outdo squishy sustained damage champs/burst champs

General Esdeath 1 votes

Because her range is the shortest.

That's Riot's official reasoning. I get that they're trying to give her an identity with that but with new Graves he fills that a lot better and at a much more fair balance. They should nerf her damage on her silver bolts or make them cost something to toggle on/off like a item 3042

Shandrake4 votes

{quoted}

Because her range is the shortest.

Not anymore, that would be Graves. After his kit change.

General Esdeath 2 votes

{quoted}

Not anymore, that would be Graves. After his kit change.

Please refer to the rest of my comment o/

LithiumWednesday1 votes

Assuming a HP pool of 1900, Vayne max rank W currently does 212 [(1900 x 0.08)+60] true damage on her third strike.

With the PBE changes, she does 228 (1900 x 0.12) damage. Granted, this isn't huge, but the difference on tanky champs is significantly more noticeable. Atm against champs with 3500 HP, she does 340 [(3500 x 0.08)+60] damage. With the PBE changes, she does 420 (3500 x 0.12) damage.

Early game nerfed, so not really sure what to feel.

Marthian2 votes

She also gains less AD from leveling. So while she starts off with more, she ends up with less.

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