The outcome of games should not be entirely reliant on bottom lane

Yenn·Oct 22, 2017·125 votes·3,614 views

Why is it taking so long to fix this?

I'm really tired of losing LP because my bottom lane either picks incorrectly or gets auto-filled.

74 Comments

BańgOct 22, 201728 votes

lazy cockroaches need to wait until preseason before they nerf this game breakingly broken role because "ahh rune changes bro we need to wait a couple of months before the game becomes somewhat decent for other roles " "gl btw"

Ben SharpioOct 22, 201722 votes

Yeah, it literally takes a catastrophe on the worlds stages with casters talking about ardent censor and adc's 24/7 for dumbass riot games to open their eyes and see that bot lane has been ruining this game forever. "Oops, we might have overdone it with ardent censor LOL" FUCK YOU dude...

They don't play their own fucking game because anyone who isn't a moron can log in, play this game for a couple hours and see how destructive bot lane is.

ElikainOct 22, 201718 votes

I love how you overestimate your own knowledge of the game. It's the people who are being payed to balance the game that don't know shit but you, a lonely Bronze player, that has all that secret knowledge and is able to obtain it from just a few hours. You don't need to research anything or cross-reference the data, you just can feel what's wrong and are pinpoint accurate.

We don't need a biased player balancing the game because you'd run it to the ground in a single patch. It's very easy to remove something that's bothering you - just gut it in half or delete it. But that's now how you actually balance the game and make it fair for every role.

FlitcheeOct 22, 20173 votes

people in bronze can actually have some good ideas, albeit not all of them. Some people are there because they panic when thye have to think fast, or the just have bad motor skills, or any number of reasons. Yes a lot of them are not the most intelligent game knowledge wise, but there are a lot that are fine in that respect

DauntOct 22, 20171 votes

They wouldn't be bronze then.

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

They wouldn't be bronze then.

Or maybe they don't care enough to waste countless hours grinding in a flawed 5v5 ELO system that takes way too many games before it reflects individual player skill accurately.

There are a ton of gamers that have common sense about balance issues that simply don't care to grind for 200+ games... if you care enough to grind for 200+ games and rank up, congrats... but don't act as if you wasting more time at a video game gives you some sort of intellectual authority on common sense balance issues.

If everyone in the pros has to use the same item and play the same 10 champs in a game of hundreds of champs and items, clearly it isn't balanced. Hell, just by the amount of changes, reworks, and constant updates I have seen in the time I've played this game, it is clear that the devs don't consider this game balanced either.

DauntOct 23, 20171 votes

Or maybe they don't care enough to waste countless hours grinding in a flawed 5v5 ELO system that takes way too many games before it reflects individual player skill accurately.

Ok? That doesn't make them better than they actually are. You don't have to grind to escape a certain elo unless you reached your peak. Which in that case means you're limited to game knowledge of the current elo you're stuck in.

Huh? How does it take many games to show individual skill expression? You have that in every single game you play. You must be one of those interesting fellas thinking that it's your teams fault you lose every game.

There are a ton of gamers that have common sense about balance issues that simply don't care to grind for 200+ games... if you care enough to grind for 200+ games and rank up, congrats... but don't act as if you wasting more time at a video game gives you some sort of intellectual authority on common sense balance issues.

People can play 200+ games and still be bronze so what are you talking about? And yes, playing more gives me more intellectual authority since i actually have a deeper understanding of the game. Almost as if being better at the game gives you a different view of it and a better judgement of it.

Being bronze just means you don't know anything about the game and after spectating a lot of bronzes i can fully back this statement up. You're acting like the type of person that thinks they deserve a higher tier because you think you're good enough.

If everyone in the pros has to use the same item and play the same 10 champs in a game of hundreds of champs and items, clearly it isn't balanced. Hell, just by the amount of changes, reworks, and constant updates I have seen in the time I've played this game, it is clear that the devs don't consider this game balanced either.

????? Since when are people playing the same 10 champions exactly? The diversity in Worlds is actually much better than it was tbh. Minding ADCs itemization in the current moment, how is this game unbalanced? And looking at Worlds to judge the games balance isn't really a smart idea since they're behind like 2 patches. Please point me to somewhere where a dev said they think the game is unbalanced. This just proves my point of low elo people not knowing how the game works so they make untrue claims like that the game in completely unbalanced.

ARAM ZooKeeperOct 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ok? That doesn't make them better than they actually are. You don't have to grind to escape a certain elo unless you reached your peak. Which in that case means you're limited to game knowledge of the current elo you're stuck in.

Huh? How does it take many games to show individual skill expression? You have that in every single game you play. You must be one of those interesting fellas thinking that it's your teams fault you lose every game.

People can play 200+ games and still be bronze so what are you talking about? And yes, playing more gives me more intellectual authority since i actually have a deeper understanding of the game. Almost as if being better at the game gives you a different view of it and a better judgement of it.

Being bronze just means you don't know anything about the game and after spectating a lot of bronzes i can fully back this statement up. You're acting like the type of person that thinks they deserve a higher tier because you think you're good enough.

????? Since when are people playing the same 10 champions exactly? The diversity in Worlds is actually much better than it was tbh. Minding ADCs itemization in the current moment, how is this game unbalanced? And looking at Worlds to judge the games balance isn't really a smart idea since they're behind like 2 patches. Please point me to somewhere where a dev said they think the game is unbalanced. This just proves my point of low elo people not knowing how the game works so they make untrue claims like that the game in completely unbalanced.

You don't have to be Challenger rank to have common sense. Every time the devs make a change/rework... that is admitting the prior iteration was not desirable in terms of balance.

And get off your high horse... honestly, act like you have been there before. I swear for half of the League nerds that grind up to a decent rank, you always make it obvious its the first time you've ever been ranked above average in a video game.

As I stated earlier. 5v5 ELO ranks are fundamentally not good for measuring individual skill, and require wayyyy too many games before any individual skill starts to show against the countless other variables that come with 5v5 team games. Some of us don't have time to grind in 200+ games to hit our max rank. If you do, good for you... but don't hit me with that "anyone in this ELO does not have a valid opinion" BS.

Ben SharpioOct 22, 20172 votes

i'm not a bronze level player, 2. riot's silver balance team doesnt know what the fuck they're doing, 3. if you're going to try and rank shame ME (in which this case it makes no sense because i'm not a bronze player), post from your main account with a couple of ranked games played instead of whatever inactive bullshit account you have here. 3. It's clearly a biased opinion that bot lane is a destructive lane when 6/10 bans are used on supports alone.

Yeah guys, it's just ME and my biased opinion!

ModAcademy KaynOct 22, 20174 votes

Most people with credible arguments don't throw in a personal "Fuck you", at least in my experience.

thefanceOct 22, 20173 votes

Half the reason these boards tilt me so hard is because most players simply react to what feels strong or weak, without considering the underlying causes. I'd bet money that most of the playerbase would not have been able to identify that Ardent was overpowered unless told so by a higher elo player.

Odyssey YasuoOct 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riven xp ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WiOmrcLY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-22T02:33:47.977+0000)

lazy cockroaches need to wait until preseason before they nerf this game breakingly broken role because "ahh rune changes bro we need to wait a couple of months before the game becomes somewhat decent for other roles " "gl btw"

But I love facing tristana's and twitch's xd

ElikainOct 22, 20179 votes

lazy cockroaches

You do know that Riot's resources are majorly all tied to balancing new runes for the pre-season, right? They're hard at work trying to balance the game for the future season, which were the changes we actually wanted them to make many months ago. And no, that doesn't mean that Riot has no hands on deck to balance the game right now but it makes no sense to balance the game big time because the season is going to be over in less than month anyway.

The pre-season is always the time of the year where there're biggest changes made to the game that take a few big patches to stabilize. So RIot can't shrug this off at all. Why double the workload when you don't have to? Work harder but also work smarter.

KaìjuOct 22, 201711 votes

ADC main here, nearly an Ashe OTP and trust me I don't like it either. The lane feels decided more by who picks what support than anything else. If I get Lux who rushes FQC and their Lulu rushes Ardent I can tell I won't win because no matter what I'm trading my HP for damage on a shield and not getting any support myself. And this turns into "shit ADC is shit" but nobody wants to help me and thus I'm expected to carry a game where people actively don't want to win. The meta is only fun for the handful of people who want to abuse what's broken, and even for the rest of us in the role it sucks. I love Ashe but she blows right now and I don't wanna play Kog because nobody on my team gets Ardent. The meta sucks ass and I want it to change so that I can actually play utility carries again because fucking hell I do not want to play Twitch, Trist, Jinx, or Kog again.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 22, 201711 votes

Captain here:

90% of the reason that botlane decides the meta is because there are two people there. The remaining 10% is because it has one of the best late-game classes and an enabling class there.

#Botlane has 40% of your team. If 40% of your team loses, you have a very hard time winning.

Edit: And carries very much do happen from other lanes. I just almost single-handedly carried a match as Morde (help from Soraka) in top. 14/2/14. Their bot was powerless to stop me, and they had been winning.

thefanceOct 22, 20172 votes

This is a just-so story. Not too long ago, the community was meming it up with "ADC 2017 LUL". During that period, was botlane less than 40% of the team? Was the ADC-role any less oriented towards late-game?

Automated RivenOct 22, 20174 votes

It also has a lot to do with the adc class hitting power spikes way to early >20 minutes. And supports being too efficient with their itemization. (None of this would be a problem except that comparable to other champions it seems out of balance)

ModAcademy KaynOct 22, 20179 votes

Ya still got to wonder if it's more because of the fact that it is a lane that has 2 people in it, instead of 1, meaning if the lane loses, you have two people ahead, and 2 people behind. IF, huge IF, that is the case, how would you fix that? Like, actual question, how would ya?

StillnameOct 22, 20175 votes

They also made a big push this season to give the support more pull in a game which gives the bot lane more pull.

I WILL TROLL YOUOct 22, 20178 votes

What about when a fed mid , top or jungle carries ? Katarina , Garen , Akali etc. there are lots of champs that can roll face to an easy victory with an early lead. Why only blame bot lane ? There are plenty of other people you can blame for your losses.

This is another I can't win and it's everybody's fault but mine thread. They could nerf marksmen to the ground and you would still lose.

vgamedudeOct 22, 20172 votes

Neither of those are remotely as strong as a fed twitch, kog, xayah, tristana etc. It's literally not even remotely comparable. Twitch can literally ult down an entire team easier, safer and quicker than katarina, akali is single target, and garen,.... I have no idea whyu he's even included.

DauntOct 22, 20175 votes

I'm really tired of losing LP because my bottom lane either picks incorrectly or gets auto-filled.

Talking like this didn't happen before this meta. Stop whining and exaggerating.

Also the outcome of the game isn't entirely reliant on botlane, you're exaggerating. Midlane still has potential to carry games and is doing ok. Just because bot is slightly more important now doesn't mean the rest is completely useless.

Instead of making these shit posts maybe focus on what can actually be improved in the game.

Ungrateful ThugOct 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Talking like this didn't happen before this meta. Stop whining and exaggerating.

As if it was nearly this bad before ardent meta.

DauntOct 22, 20174 votes

What we call ardent meta is over tbh and what you see at Worlds is ardent meta. Sure the item is still picked up but what's really strong are the crit ADCs that are abused it.

PePsiLemoNNOct 22, 20174 votes

And it's not. People carrying from mid/jungle literally all the time

ChuShoeOct 22, 20173 votes

I've refused to play ranked in this current meta, because of how bad it is. Riot pretty much said "oh, you wanna grind to gold before the end of the season, well you better qeue support and first pick janna/lulu because this is your only option right now."

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20172 votes

Golly gee its not like you didn't have 10 months before this to start climbing. Season starts January 4th, maybe you will get a head start next season before waiting until last minute and then come crying to the boards about how long you slacked off and are tired of the current meta when you could have just climbed in a more favorable one. Eh, nah I'll see you back in 12 months.

ChuShoeOct 23, 20171 votes

Actually, I didn't start playing league until half of the season was already over. What real reason is there to grind ranked, the cancerous experience that it is, other than bragging rights and the skin?

Grinding ranked is something I did to get my placements, then took a long break because boy is ranked stressful to people who don't play it 24/7.

I won't be back here in 12 months saying the same thing, I'll be back here in 12 months complaining about another aids meta with the addition of the new rune system.

Shuyin178Oct 22, 20172 votes

I'm really tired of losing LP because my bottom lane either picks incorrectly

Meta-slave spotted. There is no such thing as incorrect as long as the player that's using the champion is having fun, which is what video games are suppose to be for.

YennOct 22, 201725 votes

{quoted}

Meta-slave spotted. There is no such thing as incorrect as long as the player that's using the champion is having fun, which is what video games are suppose to be for.

This is ranked, not normals.

Shuyin178Oct 22, 20172 votes

A number of players only play ranked, to them normals doesn't exist so they want to just have fun. You have less fun when you meta-slave because you get to play what you want instead of what you're told to.

ChuShoeOct 22, 201713 votes

No, when you play ranked, you play meta, because nobody wants you throwing the game with your "100% winrate jungle ap ornn". Normals is the place to practice with champions you're not familiar with, and do fun/goofy team comps. Rank is what reflects your skill level in solo/duo, and believe it or not, some things just aren't good ideas. Crazy right? People get angry when what is supposed to be the reflection of their personal skill level to not only play against a laner, but also play as a team is tarnished by some special snowflake who really wants to spruce things up with a bit of not completely thought through plans.

I'm not saying you have to be a "meta slave" to play in general, but please don't troll your teammates in ranked with support zyra running relic and smite. Thanks.

Evil YasuoOct 22, 20175 votes

{quoted}

No, when you play ranked, you play meta, because nobody wants you throwing the game with your "100% winrate jungle ap ornn". Normals is the place to practice with champions you're not familiar with, and do fun/goofy team comps. Rank is what reflects your skill level in solo/duo, and believe it or not, some things just aren't good ideas. Crazy right? People get angry when what is supposed to be the reflection of their personal skill level to not only play against a laner, but also play as a team is tarnished by some special snowflake who really wants to spruce things up with a bit of not completely thought through plans.

I'm not saying you have to be a "meta slave" to play in general, but please don't troll your teammates in ranked with support zyra running relic and smite. Thanks.

I'm okay with people playing their main in ranked if it's not meta but just know what you're doing. Ranked is not for testing champions out

Ben SharpioOct 22, 201713 votes

There is no such thing as incorrect as long as the player that's using the champion is having fun, which is what video games are suppose to be for.

Thats why there's separate queues for people like you. People in ranked arent looking for the same experience, we actually CARE about the game being balanced because we're going against people that abuse the broken shit EVERY GAME they have the chance to while people in norms just dick around and "have fun" on random champions in random roles.

vgamedudeOct 22, 20172 votes

Couldn't agree more. It gets pretty annoying especially while watching worlds. It's so absolutely sickening when you see a team get stomped early but then a kog or twitch is allowed to farm just a bit and they can come back just from that one stupid champ.

I absolutely despise this all bot lane ardent meta. It's stupid.

EDIT: Anyone watching the first game of WE vs. C9 now will see what kind of stupid wank kog maw janna is right now by the way.

łnśaneOct 22, 20178 votes

THISSSSSSS^^^^^^ It's fucking stupid. As soon as I saw Kog maw I knew they would win, and then they fucking picked Caitlyn ......omfg with lulu. Not saying lulu is bad or that Caitlyn can't be played well by sneaky.

It's nice they won early game; but once Kog Maw gets fucking rage blade its over....that's not how a game should fucking be decided. I'm seriously getting sick and tired of these fucking hyper carry adc's and their fucking enchanter supports.

Ok rant over lol

To answer OP tho there is no such thing as "picking incorrectly" unless they are seriously trolling, and I mean seriously. I One Trick Miss Fortune, I played about 500+ games this season with her and have a 58% win rate with her. If picking "incorrectly" means not picking the meta than you're very mistaken.

Its taking long because worlds is still going on. Once worlds is over and runes are out we will see what's going to happen to the bot lane. Also idk if this is true, but I read a board post stating that Ardent Censer is getting gutted. So just wait and see.

YennOct 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

THISSSSSSS^^^^^^ It's fucking stupid. As soon as I saw Kog maw I knew they would win, and then they fucking picked ......omfg with lulu. Not saying lulu is bad or that can't be played well by sneaky.

It's nice they won early game; but once Kog Maw gets fucking rage blade its over....that's not how a game should fucking be decided. I'm seriously getting sick and tired of these fucking hyper carry adc's and their fucking enchanter supports.

Ok rant over lol

To answer OP tho there is no such thing as "picking incorrectly" unless they are seriously trolling, and I mean seriously. I One Trick Miss Fortune, I played about 500+ games this season with her and have a 58% win rate with her. If picking "incorrectly" means not picking the meta than you're very mistaken.

Its taking long because worlds is still going on. Once worlds is over and runes are out we will see what's going to happen to the bot lane. Also idk if this is true, but I read a board post stating that Ardent Censer is getting gutted. So just wait and see.

Picking incorrectly is 100% a thing, but you aren't at a level where it matters, so it's understandable that you aren't aware of it.

I had a game where our bottom lane picked Kog'maw + Zyra into Noctune, Leona, and Jinx I think. Zyra has no synergy with Kog'maw. She can't peel Nocturne. She can't protect him from Leona. Kog'maw has no way to survive Nocturne or Leona's ults by himself. This was picking incorrectly; it doesn't matter how good these players were, their picks fucked the entire team over and made it impossible for them to not feed.

NotCounterOct 22, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Picking incorrectly is 100% a thing, but you aren't at a level where it matters, so it's understandable that you aren't aware of it.

I had a game where our bottom lane picked Kog'maw + Zyra into Noctune, Leona, and Jinx I think. Zyra has no synergy with Kog'maw. She can't peel Nocturne. She can't protect him from Leona. Kog'maw has no way to survive Nocturne or Leona's ults by himself. This was picking incorrectly; it doesn't matter how good these players were, their picks fucked the entire team over and made it impossible for them to not feed.

there is no level of play where picking is as intense and defining as you're saying. even in worlds you can see examples of people defying the meta and winning

thefanceOct 22, 20171 votes

I remember when Faker picked Olaf mid and Master Yi mid during professional matches and stomped. If it were anyone else, "gg Yi mid".

ChuShoeOct 23, 20171 votes

Because faker is arguably the best mid laner in the world. He can make any champion look busted mid. There's a reason why pros defy the meta, because they're coordinated and professionals.

Unfortunately, most of us aren't professionals, and aren't skilled enough to pull this off.

That's not to say off-meta isn't a fun thing that you can do in norms. Norms are supposed to be fun.

ThefrostyvikingOct 22, 20172 votes

Last night i lost a game because my team's Fizz went 0,2,2 against vlad midlane, said vlad proceeded to dive me on varus every single fight and i either ran away or i died.

FOR JUSTICEOct 22, 20172 votes

I'm just a mere wood rank scrub, so please feel free to take me as a grain of salt :(

{quoted} I'm really tired of losing LP because my bottom lane either picks incorrectly or gets auto-filled.

first things first though, its impossible to just "pick incorrectly" in this game unless its downright stupid (ie: cho gath support) the determining factor in any lane will always come down to how skilled I am in comparison to the enemy's skill, and how hard the matchup normally is. just because the enemy chooses Caitlyn dosent mean I cant win with ashe in a trade, it just becomes way harder to.

my second point is that the marksman class meta is pretty much just the same couple of hyper carries ( Jinx Twitch ) but the ONE thing they all share in common is their downright abysmal laning phase, which is where the enchanter support meta came from. if it wasnt for the fact that they could easily and reliably be babied through their laning phase, I doubt that this ADC meta would be a thing (exception to tristana I guess, cause she can play pretty safely so hers is just bad). the reason that bot is pretty much almost ALWAYS camped by a jungler, is because most soloque games consist of 2 chimpanzees, a rocket scientist, an average joe, and half a corndog left in the backseat of a car long enough to reach sentience, (lol if you get the reference) your pretty much garunteed to have the game that lasts 30 mins +, ya know, where they outscale everyone by like, double stats and sh!t, so its only natural they would want the easiest win possible.

tl;dr the enchanter support to carry through laning phase, and bot lane accounts for 40% of your team. and adc is a carry role.

also I have to point out though, judging by your ranked match history, your mostly a midlaner, with like 3 support games mixed in, and that one Caitlyn game. why not try to actually PLAY the adc because every other one you meet is feeding? not defending the class or anything, just saying give it a shot, you might like it

DaNinadOct 22, 20171 votes

Tristana and twitch are not weak early. Especially tristana.

FOR JUSTICEOct 22, 20171 votes

When it comes to trist, her passive makes her susceptible to being bullied, but if she plays safe its pretty damn near impossible to punish her. Cant vouch for twitch tho.

IcyPepperOct 22, 20171 votes

Maybe if marksman weren't mandatory, that wouldn't be the case.

The whole "your ADC is balanced by the enemy team having an ADC" factor is an excuse, not actual balance.

L0veITOct 22, 20171 votes

This meta is bottom lane oriented,nothing else. We had jgl oriented meta when season started,shifted from mid lane meta,shifted from top lane meta,which is now bottom lane oriented. Regarding climbing, you will get your elo with your main role,even if meta doesnt focus on that role. I came to my peak rank (or up to 150 mmr below) with 3 different roles on 3 different accs. You can play jungle,mid or top,and still carry games and get your elo. And maybe if ur main sup and only played janna last month,you will get up to 200 more mmr (around 3 divisions) because its strong pick,but eventualy, that kind of player will probably fall of by that same 200 mmr he gained by playing strong pick,in time. I dont think game is unfair or completly reliant on botlane,and I do think that you can carry and get your Elo with any role.

P.S. This opinion is only about solo Q, pro play excluded

JESUSSAYSNOOct 22, 20171 votes

I mean the role's influence needs to be gutted, but other lanes win the game by influencing botlane. Top can TP gank, mid can roam, junglers can gank, etc. I don't think the meta is very healthy, with so much power placed in the ADC, but the ability to influence the game clearly exists within other roles.

I climbed probably 4 divisions this season just by playing full tank toplaners and peeling for my AD. Do i think it's healthy? No. Did I win the games through my own influence on the game, absolutely.

Red WreckageOct 23, 20171 votes

start playing some cancer ranged in top lane then. make crit+IE and carry yourself :)

SB ArneemanOct 23, 20171 votes

The answer to this is Azir . I legit won a ranked game where my Jinx went 0/10 while enemy Twitch was 9/0 early game, high plat elo. You can also roam with him and shurima shuffle enemy botlane to get guaranteed flashes or kills if they are not playing safe enough.

YennNov 2, 20171 votes

Still waiting for this bullshit to be fixed.

Just had a normal game where the enemy team had a 4-man pre-made that just snowballed the shit out of their Vayne to the point that she was basically 1v4'ing our team at 17 minutes. This is ridiculous.