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Well now poppy is dead and boring.....

slippykitten··6 votes·2,579 views

Sorry to sound harsh, but she will be another sion. Oh, everyone praises him for a wonderful rework, but people don't actually play him so....

Poppy was one of the wonderful champs that had viability with nearly every build - Pros have successfully built her full ad, full ap, bruiser, full tank, hybrid, you name it. Most importantly her playstyle was UNIQUE!!!!! I know her ult was problematic, but lets get real, that was an easy fix. Remove it from full immunity to a general damage reduction and balance - it doesn't get simpler than that.

instead Poppy is being reworked into a standard bruiser/tank, pigeon holed into a "build tanky or die trying" build. If she does it well, she will get nerfed, if she does it poorly, she simply wont be played.

The ONLY moderately interesting thing about her will be her ult, which is gimmicky and will stop being fun as soon as players have used it a few times.

Riot, I'm sorry, but you have gone through and murdered every champion who had any kind of build diversity. Don't tell me you are all about decision making when every champion that actually has decisions is reworked and destroyed.

AP gp - dead AP yi - dead Top/mid soraka - Dead Jg Ali - Dead

On and on i can go. Instead of taking the time to balance properly, you just remove anything that doubles your balance work. I suppose that is the easiest thing to do, but it sure makes for a boring experience when you know EXACTLY where every champ is going and EXACTLY what every champ will build.

edit: Go ahead and tell me im wrong and downvote me. The proof is in the pudding. lets see if you guys are actually playing her in 3 months. I GUARANTEE you wont be.

56 Comments

SaltyKracka12 votes

{quoted}

I love toxic shit

K

Colgate Gator8 votes

Nothing like a Bronze 5 player talking about how they can balance the game better than Riot.

OperationDEEZ16 votes

Poppy right now is fucking bullshit and toxic. She needs the rework. Balance before diversity.

slippykitten2 votes

{quoted}

Poppy right now is fucking bullshit and toxic. She needs the rework. Balance before diversity.

I'm all for that, except they have made zero effort to balance her in 5 years. She has remained one of the most unchanged champs in the game. They never even attempted to balance her, so don't give me the "balance over diversity" nonsense.

Riot can do both, if they want to do the work. The point is they don't want to do the work, they want to have "classes" of champs that all perform the same so they can blanket balance. It's lazy, and it removes diversity.

But lets put it to the test, let's see if you actually play the new poppy in 3 months. My guess is no.

Ralanr2 votes

They did. It was giving her the weakest laning phase as possible.

Poppy is a very old champion. I don't think Riot had the tech or skill they do now to have really balanced her kit. They've even had to say that if anyone finds a way to capitalize on her shit early game, they will nerf her on the spot (I'm typing word of mouth).

I've fought her once and I've seen her play a few times. Her playstyle didn't seem unique, it seemed unfair to both sides. If she got fed then she'd build nothing but crit and attack speed items. She built no defense items because her passive and her ult was more than enough defense.

She was a burden. I tend to view all hypercarries as burdens, but at least Yasuo can bring utility if he isn't fed.

slippykitten2 votes

{quoted}

They did. It was giving her the weakest laning phase as possible.

Poppy is a very old champion. I don't think Riot had the tech or skill they do now to have really balanced her kit. They've even had to say that if anyone finds a way to capitalize on her shit early game, they will nerf her on the spot (I'm typing word of mouth).

I've fought her once and I've seen her play a few times. Her playstyle didn't seem unique, it seemed unfair to both sides. If she got fed then she'd build nothing but crit and attack speed items. She built no defense items because her passive and her ult was more than enough defense.

She was a burden. I tend to view all hypercarries as burdens, but at least Yasuo can bring utility if he isn't fed.

Poppy had utility and cc, innate tankiness, and the possibility of damage. I already said i get the problem with her ult especially, but how hard of a balance issue is that? It could EASILY have been taken from having full immunity to damage to having a % damage reduction and boom, now she cant dive 5 enemies, kill the carry, and walk away.

I thought of that in 8 seconds, and you're telling me riot couldn't have possibly balanced that in 6 years!? come on dude....

Ralanr1 votes

Her innate tankiness was a problem for a fighter/assassin. It allowed her to build damage items without any trade off.

Maybe Riot just didn't like the ability? It was abused immensely by players who just threw it on the enemy support. Even if it was just damage reduction, she could abuse it (because of her passive) to toxic levels.

slippykitten2 votes

{quoted}

Her innate tankiness was a problem for a fighter/assassin. It allowed her to build damage items without any trade off.

Maybe Riot just didn't like the ability? It was abused immensely by players who just threw it on the enemy support. Even if it was just damage reduction, she could abuse it (because of her passive) to toxic levels.

Right, i agree there were several issues. Her Q base damage was too high, her passive was just unfair, and her ult was basically "put this on the least damage person and murder before it runs out"

But those abilities were never balanced, or changed, in any attempt to salvage the champion.

What I'll miss is the diversity. She will not longer have the possibility of building damage, and I'm sure ap poppy will be LONG gone. She will be another generic tanky top laner that is either the strongest in that class or outclassed and not played.

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

Poppy right now is fucking bullshit and toxic. She needs the rework. Balance before diversity.

Also how toxic can she possibly be when you only see her 1.5% of the time?

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

Also how toxic can she possibly be when you only see her 1.5% of the time?

The reason you only see her 1.5% of the time is because she's toxic. Don't defend her current design as if her lack of popularity is unrelated to her not being allowed to be good.

We should encourage a rework that'll have some chance of actually being played.

BluePolarizer4 votes

sion got nerfed into the ground, which is why no one plays him anymore.

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

sion got nerfed into the ground, which is why no one plays him anymore.

That's my point, when you have a generic and linear champion, they can only have 3 options

  1. Being op awaiting nerfs
  2. Being weak and not getting played or
  3. Being the single best champ in their class, making every other champ a secondary pick.

The best case scenario is that poppy becomes #3, which would just simply mean other champs are overlooked.

Each champion has to have something different to bring to the table or they will just be fighting positions for being the best in class. Making picked other champs a noob trap each patch.

Ralanr1 votes

What did Poppy originally bring that no other champion could. Out of other hypercarries, what made her unique that wasn't toxic?

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

What did Poppy originally bring that no other champion could. Out of other hypercarries, what made her unique that wasn't toxic?

Build/role diversity. She could function as a tank, a bruiser, or a carry. She could build ap/ad/hybrid/or tank. And they were all viable if played correctly. I don't mean possible, i mean viable. These were all reasonable choices with payoffs.

If any one of the builds were too strong or toxic, you balance it, you dont remove it.

In my eyes, removing ap poppy is like removing a champion. It would be as if they just said "yasuo is hard to balance, so we are deleting him" - it's simply not the appropriate response, especially when ZERO effort was made to balance poppy in the first place.

Ralanr1 votes

A lot of effort was probably made, we just never saw it since they may have reached the conclusion that her kit (not her numbers) was the problem. That's why Sion, Poppy, and Taric are getting (or have gotten) such heavy reworks. Their kits had inherent flaws that went beyond numbers.

Honestly as long as I have fun playing a champion, I won't care if they aren't the best suited for the job. I'll still play them (within reason. I'll play a tank if a tank is needed, but if we already have a bunch of tanks I'll play a damage dealer or something the team needs) because I enjoy them.

Ralanr3 votes

I still play Sion. Just because you don't play a champion doesn't mean others don't.

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

I still play Sion. Just because you don't play a champion doesn't mean others don't.

That's fine, but that isn't a statistic. Less people play him today than did before his rework. I'm sure that isn't even possible with poppys case, but the point still stands.

Ralanr2 votes

Why does it matter how many people play "X" champion? I don't care if I'm the only one to play Sion, Pantheon, or any champion. I play a champion because I like their abilities, I don't care if they're popular or not.

Do I play popular champions? I'll admit I do. After seeing Gangplank in worlds I wanted to try him (I didn't look into his rework at the time since I didn't care about Gangplank back then). I also bought Illaoi when she was released (with IP I saved up) because I liked her kit. I'm having a blast and learning her is more difficult than I expected.

If you're arguing that no one will play her after her rework (which I disagree based on her W alone) then let me tell you that I'm going to try. I might end up maiming her.

I'm sorry a champion kit you liked is gone. But it wasn't healthy for the game and a change was a long time coming. If nothing happened, then Poppy would be further forgotten.

As Illaoi points out, "Life is motion". If nothing changes, then nothing really lives.

Change sucks, but that's life.

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

Why does it matter how many people play "X" champion? I don't care if I'm the only one to play Sion, Pantheon, or any champion. I play a champion because I like their abilities, I don't care if they're popular or not.

Do I play popular champions? I'll admit I do. After seeing Gangplank in worlds I wanted to try him (I didn't look into his rework at the time since I didn't care about Gangplank back then). I also bought Illaoi when she was released (with IP I saved up) because I liked her kit. I'm having a blast and learning her is more difficult than I expected.

If you're arguing that no one will play her after her rework (which I disagree based on her W alone) then let me tell you that I'm going to try. I might end up maiming her.

I'm sorry a champion kit you liked is gone. But it wasn't healthy for the game and a change was a long time coming. If nothing happened, then Poppy would be further forgotten.

As Illaoi points out, "Life is motion". If nothing changes, then nothing really lives.

Change sucks, but that's life.

It isnt the fact she was changed, she needed some change, especially since riot has left her in the dumpster for 5 years straight. It was that they changed a diverse champ into a linear champ with no diverstiy.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Your only factor for deciding if a champ is linear or not seems to be how many off builds they have.

slippykitten1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WcAYGYwA,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-25T18:29:10.318+0000)

Your only factor for deciding if a champ is linear or not seems to be how many off builds they have.

Not entirely, but that is part of it. If a champion goes into every game with no possibility other than to build the EXACT same items, and do the EXACT same thing, then it is fairly linear. Now if there are other champions who build the EXACT same items and do the EXACT same thing, it just becomes a matter of which one of them is stronger.

Tell me, what does new poppy do that other top lane tanks wont do? all things being equal, what does she specifically bring to the table that would help a team that other tanks with cc wont?

Ralanr1 votes

Anti dash zone.

The Sword Saint4 votes

She has the ability to remove enemy tanks from a fight instantly, with more reliability than a full build hyper assassin. It's true that they can make their way back to the fight eventually, but by that time they will have lost many opportunities to protect their teammates or make offensive plays. For objectives, she could ult away the enemy jungler to prevent them from smiting baron or dragon. The ult impact is an aoe as well, so with good aim or setup from an orriana ult or something similar, she can turn a teamfight into a 3v5 or even better for her team.

Her w active allows her a unique power to ward off all assassins and diving enemies who rely on dashes to get to the backline. No rengar is going to be able to ult onto a carry with poppy there, for example. It also makes her a safe laner, as it's difficult to gank someone who can deny both the enemy laner and jungler from gapclosing on them, while also gaining a boost of movespeed threatening a wall tackle on anyone who tries to run along side her.

Her tackle create a vayne like effect where it warps the positioning and movement patterns of the enemy team as they try to avoid the threat of a wall stun.

She has the ability to make picks, but mostly she functions as the fighter version of janna, acting as the ultimate disengage bodyguard against a handful of diving enemies.

Shyvauni1 votes

Given the item changes if builds is the only factor to a champion being linear.. by that logic no champion is linear whatsoever at all anymore. GG go look at all the institutional items (hint: almost all items are situational now)

Ralanr1 votes

Do you have a PBE account?

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

Do you have a PBE account?

I do, and have played sion.2

Ralanr1 votes

Ok. So I guess you can experiment with her to see how she can build. Have you shared your concerns with the PBE community?

Shyvauni1 votes

She still has plenty of diversity. She can still fill Top, Jungle and I bet she would make a hilarious support to play as. Sh is far less linear than she used to be. Pre change it was I have Ult tower dive free kill. I dont have ult Wait .. wait ok now I have ult.

Itadaki Seieki1 votes

{quoted}

It isnt the fact she was changed, she needed some change, especially since riot has left her in the dumpster for 5 years straight. It was that they changed a diverse champ into a linear champ with no diverstiy.

Gailo hasn't changed since his release, should he be changed? No. Some champions fit into certain metas. If there was a meta for Poppy that was accustom to putting her ulti on a tank or support and killing a carry, you'd find her banned or picked almost every game. The champion herself was a great idea, but NO meta EVER let her truly shine. Skarner had a meta, if it was only for a short time. Veigar had a meta too, before AD Assassins and Leblanc took over the middle lane.

Poppy's kit never gave her a chance to shine in any given meta, if it was the bruisers, others did her job better ( Jax, rings a bell? Lee Sin, Rengar. ) If it was tanks? Oh Maokai and Malphite are much better.

She was a jack of two trades, being a bruiser, and being a tankish champion. Problem was the meta left her in the dirt, as it left a TON of champions.

Remember when people joked about Urgot having a >40% pick rate? Urgot never really fit into a meta, and that's what happened to him.

In this day and age, the champions kit has to be able to keep up with the meta and keep players interested in the champion design, which Poppy only did the latter. Bard

Shyvauni1 votes

actually Pre-rework Sion had less players its just that the old people who abandoned him post rework are a very loud and obnoxious group of people making them seem to be the majority.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

That's fine, but that isn't a statistic. Less people play him today than did before his rework. I'm sure that isn't even possible with poppys case, but the point still stands.

I don't believe that Sion is less popular than he was before the rework. He's not popular now but I can't imagine his old pick rate being 2% or anywhere near it really.

Valexfor2 votes

You either started playing yesterday and only play poppy, or you just don't understand anything about the rework... because you know, no champs has a FUCKING AURA THAT BLOCKS DASHES, if that is not enough unique for you then don't know... oh and btw: what you described as a balanced ulti is called Alistar, and poppy will still build as a fighter (she's a fighter, build her like that, not like a full ap because she gives no fucks with ult, a champ being played with too many builds most times than not, means that that champion is unhealthy af and can do whatever he wants with little to no consequences)

jesus1worlds20151 votes

oh you forgot another champ:

Quinn - Dead, she cant lane anywhere and needs to be fed to be worth something, and please dont reference your lucky casual normals game where you pulled a miracle, im talking about atleast silver--> rank success with Quinn

Shyvauni1 votes

I would not say it is lucky casual normal games if they are more than once in a blue moon good sir. I have only recently picked her up and have only had a few games where I performed poorly. Ranked does not make you better than normals. I have seen people who refuse to touch ranked because of the toxicity there that are more frightening than people I have ever seen in ranked.

Quinn is fine as is stop whining and get better at her.

Ralanr1 votes

That makes me feel good for not playing ranked.

Not that I'm good, but that being unranked doesn't mean I'm bad.

Shyvauni1 votes

Playing ranked does give you a pretty decent Idea as to where your skill level is. But Yeah I do not judge unranked players cus there is no metric for me to judge them on XD

Ralanr1 votes

Good point. XD. The only time I find myself curious about my skill is when I see gold or silver players on my team.

They're probably playing with friends.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Except Sion got played for a really long period before the meta shifted in such a disfavor for tanks that you don't see even Leona around.

9kPluzZ1 votes

You dont even play poppy. What the fuck do you care?

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

You dont even play poppy. What the fuck do you care?

I do on my main. She was the second champ i bought and i love her.

Ralanr6 votes

Why do people not use their main accounts on the forum? It just feels like hiding.

Itadaki Seieki4 votes

People do that so that their main account won't get reputed as some idiot on the forums.

Honestly, it's just childish and immature.

insaiyanbacca1 votes

she was essentially the most toxic broken kit in the entire game that should never be viable. and i actually did play her reasonably often i agree that she was fun to play as, however i also know a good poppy is not fun at all to play against because there is nothing you can do to stop her from killing everyone. so i went on the pbe and tried new poppy out, she is both reasonably balanced and fun while having a balance-able kit that isnt broken af.

slippykitten1 votes

{quoted}

she was essentially the most toxic broken kit in the entire game that should never be viable. and i actually did play her reasonably often i agree that she was fun to play as, however i also know a good poppy is not fun at all to play against because there is nothing you can do to stop her from killing everyone. so i went on the pbe and tried new poppy out, she is both reasonably balanced and fun while having a balance-able kit that isnt broken af.

I feel like I'm typing the same thing over and over:

Yes, she was not balanced, which was not because she couldn't be balanced, it was because Riot never even made the effort. What balance changes have taken place with poppy for the last 5 years? Nothing more than a half dozen minor number tweaks and capping her q damage.

They have never once touched her ult.

You simply can't say something cant be balanced when they never made an effort at all. It's lazy and disingenuous. Of course she needs changed, but she doesnt need to be another sion.

Shyvauni1 votes

as someone who goes through Sion phases and still loves the new sion. I also see Sion played fairly regularly as well I think you have 0 clue as to how often champions are played.

insaiyanbacca1 votes

Except her entire kit is extremely toxic,and yes she does need to be another sion. There is almost nothing in her kit that should be allowed on a champion. I can say something can't be balanced and I just did. You don't seem to understand why Champs are reworked tbh.

Beyond Hell1 votes

You can't kill something twice dude. Poppy was one of the least played champions in the game and her kit was extremely toxic. even if she is full tank, she has a shit ton of cc and disengage now. i kinda wish they made her a bit more like a juggernaut/fighter though, but she isnt going to be bad.

Jiharu1 votes

I used to play sion mid and top before his rework and didn't mind his rework. I felt like the nerf to his w hurt his gameplay. He still does a lot of damage if his ult hits, so you feel gimped playing him anywhere for 10+ minutes. The problem with poppy is that her kit is exactly the same currently on live. Sion needs his w to go off when it's popped like old sion or just buff the shield's base strength per level.

Obiwan Jhinobi1 votes

Well I find it funny how some are reacting Im just sayingFiora rework was "bullshit" and hyper nerfed Just like some didnt liked sion rework or rengar rework Its almost always the communitys fault why reworks are either to weak or to strong(Ryze ,Fiora ,Darius )

I just hate it how everyone thinks a rework is op or bs and so the champ get buffed or nerfed and so destroy the champion

Buttered Butter1 votes

How about poppy is a tank... so tank and stop building like a selfish buffoon xD

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