but perfectly ok for a non-draintank to do it better with items
js it's pretty fucking stupid that 
can outheal me with 
and warlord's while also shitting on me with 
. doesn't even dodge skillshots or anything
Arakadia25 votesIn general, I think lifesteal is massively overtuned. Its not fair at all when an MF is nearly killed, goes and kills wolves to heal 500 hp per auto. However ADC's might rely on it, idk.
Or when a fed ADC can facetank a juggernaut, literally just standing there and eating their autos. I get a fed adc is going to hurt like hell, but when being fed removes the skill required to kite, position, etc. its overtuned.
TotalJerk5 votesFed Yasuo's with bloodthirster is the same shit, too. It gets to the point where low damage champions basically do zero net damage against fed champions with lifesteal synergy.
Arakadia4 votesOh god. This. I feel like unless im bursty or a late game ADC such as Jinx, I have no chance to kill him because between his passive shield, his blood thirster shield, which together is massive, and than his windwall I have 0 kill pressure. Especially considering he can just lifesteal up if I do some how poke him down.
Quepha17 votesBecause adcs have tiny health pools when they build all that damage. It doesn't matter how much they regen per hit if they pop like a weasel under focused fire.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesYep. While I agree on the ADC hate, I saw a DotA guy try League recently and he said ADC was hard because it was way more normal to get oneshot as a squishie than it is in DotA
Anidan2 votesCan agree. In DotA2 the carries can actually get pretty durable, since you have strength carries (who gain damage from the same stat that gives raw HP) and agility carries (who gain damage from the same stat that gives Armor), and while Intellect carries don't directly gain any tankiness from their primary stat, they tend to have pretty good synergy with items that have offensive and defensive value. On top of that, carries there have some pretty good defensive tools and items to work with and most spells don't directly scale with any stats unlike League's AD and AP system. People don't tend to just pop past the early game unless a whole team jumps on them.
devdev4631 votes[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WbEiQxe1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-14T20:43:48.950+0000)
Yep. While I agree on the ADC hate, I saw a DotA guy try League recently and he said ADC was hard because it was way more normal to get oneshot as a squishie than it is in DotA
That's not what I've heard about dota at all. People always told me that carries FUCKING CARRY in dota and they can pretty much 1v5 when they are fed.
Photos of Ghosts1 votesUhm, how is them being able to 1v5 incompatible with them not being oneshottable?
DeusVult2 votesTrue, but if they are played well, it is exceedingly hard to get to them. So if you are diving to try to kill the enemy ADC who has one or more lifesteal items, healing multiplicatively because of crit items, then it is nearly impossible to kill them as a diver.
Ive seen adcs outheal the damage of 
because they have lifesteal and the jg/top who cant take ignite has no way to shut down their healing.
TheOneTrueBrand11 votes
"I heard you don't like drain tanking"
2Charmnot2Charm1 votes
"I heard you don't like drain tanking"
Nearly killed a graves in a 3v1 as ashe, but then he flashes in my face healing a lot and killing me right there and since the enemy team had tanks i had to get 
, and for whatever reason my mid didn't get a morellocon so he just kills my jungle and mid after i go down without caring about the damage.
TheOneTrueBrand2 votesalmost killed him in a 3v1? damn u guys musta been good, it usually takes all 5 of my team to almost kill a graves.
Nameless Voice8 votesIt was fine when they had to actually pay for their lifesteal and it resulted in them having to choose between lifesteal and more damage. Back then, you could make a lifesteal / drain build, but it would give you significantly lower damage output for the cost.
But now, there's keystones to help everyone to negate the weaknesses of their champion, class or build.
TheOneTrueBrand3 votesplus the most powerful lifesteal items also have super high AD tacked onto them.
IMO lifesteal items should be about swapping some damage for the sustain, not having sustain tacked onto the highest damage items.
and I think they could have done a whole lot more with bloodthirster, instead of giving it insane damage and lifesteal, make the damn item bloodthirsty, something like;
Bloodthirster: 3500g 35 AD 20% Lifesteal
Unique Passive: your lifesteal can how overheal you, blocking 50 to 400 damage (scaling with level) Unique Passive: Bloodthirsty: whenever you heal through lifesteal, gain 4% of the amount healed as bonus AD for 5 seconds, healing again through lifesteal refreshes the duration and adds to the bonus AD. Max bonus AD 30 to 110 (scaling with level). Only gain 1% of the damage healed though lifesteal off minions as bonus AD.
RivetAce6 votesDraintanks are hard to blow up because they don't need damage to drain 
. ADCs can get blown up because they have to build full damage/lifesteal.
Big Lincoln33 votesi guess what i rly wanna know is why do i get hard countered for 800 gold while they can buy better sustain than is available to me
Danjeng1 votesYou buy even more sustain, on top of your innate sustain.
Astôlfo15 votesUntil you realize the rest of the champion is severely weakened to make up for innate sustain.
Anidan2 votesThe good ol' drain tank problem. If the sustain is strong baseline then you outright have to counter it, and if it isn't countered then it's too strong, but if it's countered then it's either piss-weak (and you wonder why they're even built around it) or balanced (which creates the aforementioned problem of it being too strong when it isn't countered).
Given that League is a game built around counters countering counters, I have to wonder why they even try to implement drain tanking given how its counterplay works..
Done251 votesBecause Drain Tanks are the natural counter to tanky dps. Sejuani/Amumu/Zac lack the single target DPS to kill the likes of Vladimir, Swain, WW, or Aatrox.
Chembaron Yamada11 votesTheir sustain gets countered by that 800 gold item as well.
Big Lincoln5 votesi can't really make use of on swain unless im going to buy it and then sit on it for the rest of the game
ImTheSideKick11 votesswain can get 
tho granted it costs far more and only gives the debuff when the enemy is 35% or lower... but yeah... its there
Fondling Gems6 votesIt's stats are also pretty meh for Swain which is stupid. Morello needs to lose grevious wounds and we need it on an item AP drain tanks actually want because they are the type of mage that wants grevious wounds most in the first place. Why would a passive to counter sustained combat be on an item with stats that only burst mages want? If they are going to 100-0 you then grevious wounds shouldn't be a worry for them, it should be for mages who need to get close and kill opponents over time.
ImTheSideKick2 votesI never said it was a good item for him. only that he could get it. if you against a mundo voli and soraka it maybe worth getting on him.
but then again that 35% hp or lower is kinda bs when EC is do damage and you apply the debuff
Spaceman5pff1 votesmorello is bad on swain?
mana, ap, cdr, mana refund on kill / assist?
Fondling Gems4 votesSwain doesn't actually care about CDR as much as most mages. It is nice, but not something he tries to get if it is outside his core item. For the cost of the item 400 mana is ok, and AP is always nice, but Swain doesn't have the luxury of building pure damage items. He needs to survive fights, aka 
Swain needs health, AP, and Mana to function. There are enough items that give that combination of stats or sacrifice some of them for very powerful synergy (Like Spirit Visage) that an Item that only gives OK mana, AP (Which isn't swain's build priority), and a conditional mana restoration isn't that good. Grievous wounds also isn't very useful for him in that form because if he can drop you below 40 you probably can't kill him anyways. It is when you have enough sustain to ignore most of his damage it is an issue.
Basically Morello is only a better purchase than other items if you are snowball rolling over their team and want mana back in those fights. Building a morello in lane just means you will get ganked and die because you don't have the resists. Building it later is only possible if you aren't taking much damage in fights, because if you are already taking decent damage then building a morello just means you will get melted in teamfights.
Spaceman5pff1 votesVery helpful and well put, thank you!
Fondling Gems1 votesHappy to help ;P
ImTheSideKick1 votesI'm confused. I mean I'm not a big swain player and I'm assuming you are...
but why that hextech item over the proto belt one? I mean sure it gives mana iirc but you already have a slow from rylias so wouldn't the dash be better on him?
Fondling Gems1 votesFirst of all check my name, I am a Taric main. That being said I played a lot of Swain before the MYMU and while his interactions are different, the stats he cares about and his overall role are unchanged.
Generally you want GLP for 2 reasons.
It builds out of catalyst. If crap goes down and you can't afford to wait on a ROA then you buy this instead.
Swain cares about damage to as many targets as possible. As such he prefers GLP as it slows a lot of targets instantly. His ult will only slow a few targets at a time with Rylais so GLP helps keep them locked down longer. GLP also has a 65% slow compared to Rylais 20%. That means he can keep everyone there, and Swain heals more the more targets there are due to how his ult targets.
Mana is also a super important stat so that right there puts it over Protobelt. The stats on it are also better. Protobelt also scales really badly. It is useful for it's utility, however Swain's W is delayed enough that jumping forward to cast it isn't going to be as effective as something like Annie dash into ult, so he doesn't get much from the mobility, especially since when running away he actually wants to stay close to keep healing, so dashing isn't effective that way.
Swain also scales for late so he doesn't want an item who's stats fall off as hard as Protobelt. It has some stats he likes, but the active isn't overly effective for him, the build path is sub par, the CDR isn't important on it, and although it is cheap and cost effective, that means that late game you are sitting on a weak item for a weak active with some OK stats that other items offer more of.
Basically like Morello. He can buy it, but doesn't actually need it, and doesn't offer anything to make it stand out over other items unless you are so far ahead you want it for more snowball power.
For stats:
Protobelt: 300 Hp (Good) 60 AP (Good) 10% CDR (OK)
Active: Damage (OK) Utility (OK)
Build Path: OK, Kindlegem is meh, Revolver is Decent.
GLP: 300 Hp (Good) (Same) 80 AP (Good) (Better) 400 Mana (Good) (Better than 10% CDR)
Active: Damge: (Good) (Better Base, Better Scaling, Hits more) Utility: (Good) (AOE Slow > Short Dash)
Passive: Good, but often unneeded if you have a ROA
Build Path: Good Catalyst is very good, and often rushed. Can build this if you don't have time to stack a ROA Revolver is Decent.
ImTheSideKick1 votesdude you are amazing XD
Crede7771 votesHave proto belt apply grievous wounds when a missile hits an enemy. Either that or just have grievous wounds have a cool down where it can't be reapplied to the same target for ~10 seconds.
Also, question - When you are ulting as Swain, someone applies grievous wounds to you, and you Zhonyas, is your healing still cut or is the debuff immediately removed due to stasis?
Fondling Gems1 votesDebuffs last through stasis IIRC. So if you got a Nasus wither and zhonyas you still still be slowed when you get out. That is why if a zed ults you and you zhonyas you can still hear the mark pop and see the visual although you don't take damage.
Corrupt Bliss3 votesYou have to be more conscious of what your doing.
That item is not as strong, and is honestly one of the most obnoxious off build items that adc's are forced into buying.
Swain is meant to be a front line mage who dishes out massive damage over time, and requires immediate attention.
Because of this you are allowing your team to focus down your opponents and and successfully destroy the enemy.
IMO Warlords Bloodlust needs to be taken out of the game.
TheTrueQuarian39 votesTheir sustain gets countered by that 800 gold item as well.
In what world will a or build a fucking
Chembaron Yamada11 votesI didn't say he has to build that item as Vladimir or Warwick. But when it comes to teamfights, when your ADC has that item it will shut down the drain tanks of enemy's team as well as you.
Just want to point out that this game is still team focused.
TheTrueQuarian11 votesI didn't say he has to build that item as Vladimir or Warwick. But when it comes to teamfights, when your ADC has that item it will shut down the drain tanks of enemy's team as well as you.
Just want to point out that this game is still team focused.
Well in the rank i'm from only the enemy ADC would build that item our adc will build a when the enemy has 0 tanks.
Spice POWAH14 votesYour ADC builds 
in the first place?
...Are you in Diamond?
SH Azykan2 voteshey now bronze still has people whose build is 
at 45 minutes
DarkSunSovereign2 votes
You mean.
theArtifacts3 votesIn what world will a
FantasySniper1 votesAn intelligent one. Buy it, hold onto it until you run out of slots. Sell it. ezpz
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WbEiQxe1,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-14T17:07:36.769+0000)
i guess what i rly wanna know is why do i get hard countered for 800 gold while they can buy better sustain than is available to me
Because its a flawed play style in league. Drain tanking is the ultimate stat check gameplay. Are you stronger than me? 100% unkillable. Am I stronger than you? Your kit is 100% worthless. We've seen it with Warwick, Vlad and Aatrox. It feels bad to play against and bad to play as when someone buys executioner to invalidate you because there's no other counterplay in the game.
6Sfool6 votesWith his buff, I now ban him every game that I adc. Hate facing that asshole. Step 1 foot too far out and he will run you down.
TotalJerk5 votesDraintanking is unhealthy because lifesteal/spellvamp are extremely snowbally stats.
Lord Galvatron3 votesNo one plays Mundo, Vlad, and Aatrox for a reason. Swain is played only because he doesn't need the HP regents as badly as the others. Hes also more of a ranged champion then the ladder.
Fuh Queue8 votesNothing is more fun than playing Mundo and pressing R to realize someone ignited you so your health doesn't go up at all lol.
Lord Galvatron4 votesOr getting auto-attacked once by someone with Mortal Reminder/1 spell with Nomicon. The fact that Mundo was never given % Grevious resistance in his passive still baffles me to this day. Did they honestly think people would consistently play a champ whose entire kit and role gets shut down by a single summoner spell or item?