It's looking like the new 
will be an ABSOLUTE on Ashe in the next patch now that she can't easily stack crit anymore, and her utility from her passive was wholly dependent on her stacking crit. Ashe was already sacrificing damage for her passive, and now she's sacrificing her early game lane presence as well. Is there going to be any consideration on Ashe's passive, since it's going to be taking a hit from the crit changes?
ZackTheWaffleMan4 votesAn absolute what?
TwinkiePro4 votesAn absolute what?
An absolute. It's a noun too. It could also be read as "an absolute must".
FridgesArePpl22 votesunit
Tails90161 votesIn awe at the size of this lad
Ifneth3 votesAshe doesn’t sacrifice damage for her passive. Instead of each having a chance to critically strike for double damage, Ashe’s basic attacks deal percent bonus damage to frosted targets. That percent bonus equals ten plus her Critical Strike Chance. It’s as though the damage from the critical strikes she would otherwise have dealt were spread across each attack, with the ten extra percent compensating for her not dealing bonus damage on the first attack. Hitting a target with Volley immediately applies Frost, too, compensating further.
DestructoDave1 votesAshe doesn’t sacrifice damage for her passive. Instead of each having a chance to critically strike for double damage, Ashe’s basic attacks deal percent bonus damage to frosted targets. That percent bonus equals ten plus her Critical Strike Chance. It’s as though the damage from the critical strikes she would otherwise have dealt were spread across each attack, with the ten extra percent compensating for her not dealing bonus damage on the first attack. Hitting a target with Volley immediately applies Frost, too, compensating further.
She does sacrifice damage. She cannot crit on the first shot. She only gets that bonus on people with frost shot, so if they get out of range or change targets, she loses damage again.
Mathematically, on paper it should equal out if you are hitting the same person 10 times, with frost shot applied, as someone with the same crit. But in practice and reality, she does way less damage because of having to keep it applied. Thats why she usually does some of the lower avg dmg per game than most adcs.
flibitydoo3 votesshe can crit on her first auto if you damage them with W or ult first (which you may as well to optimize your damage output given your w and ult outranges your autos)
more on topic, I don't think anyone is meant to build IE as a first item with this new form. I think the idea now is you build a BF sword to last hit caster minions under turret early game, then build zeal, then finish zeal item, then finish IE. And if you were doing this before (cough going runaans+BF sword first), then it doesn't actually change much at all beyond the zeal item costing 200 more gold afaik.
DestructoDave1 votesshe can crit on her first auto if you damage them with W or ult first (which you may as well to optimize your damage output given your w and ult outranges your autos)
more on topic, I don't think anyone is meant to build IE as a first item with this new form. I think the idea now is you build a BF sword to last hit caster minions under turret early game, then build zeal, then finish zeal item, then finish IE. And if you were doing this before (cough going runaans+BF sword first), then it doesn't actually change much at all beyond the zeal item costing 200 more gold afaik.
Still, these are optimal scenarios. Targets change, she gets CC'd, she has to kite/dodge, people block W, you name it. There are reasons to why the non-crit first shot gimps her damage, and is probably one of the main factors as to why she is always so low on the dmg per game chart for adcs. It adds up over the course of a game.
Honestly, Ashe might be going back to the Bortk/Runaan's build anyways. Its not even that bad now.
Deez Crits2 votesThey're going to keep an eye on her, yes. I believe infinity edge was always a staple on Ashe regardless. I'm not sure if I follow her early game presence being hit.
I'm assuming when Ashe hits a crit, the auto attack damage will partially convert to true damage like any other ADC will.
Edit: Ashe can't overcap past 100% on crit. The way I interpret the new IE passive is that it converts the total damage on the critical strike, not the bonus damage. This might make her mid game weaker since she sacrifices utility and more reliable damage in exchange for access to larger damage on critical hits.
It's good to note this is how Ashe is currently on live, but with the new IE passive Ashe might be giving up even more damage for her utility due to the true damage conversion. With full build, her damage output will be just as strong assuming the target has frost shot applied.
grarrrg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WXKLuEer,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-02T15:18:50.380+0000)
I believe this includes any overcapped crit chance, so two zeal upgrades + infinity edge = 60 x 2 = 120% crit chance, so her autos will actually deal 230% damage and the extra crit isn't wasted. I might need to be corrected on that, but I gotta run so I'll double check her passive when I get back to see how it interacts with >100% crit chance.
Why would they uncap her crit damage? She was capped at +100% before (+150% w/IE). I see no reason for her to get extra crit damage now when no one else does.
My main question (which will be answered soon enough), is whether IE True damage applies to Ashe's '2nd attack' damage bonus, or if it applies to the 'random bonus slow' damage. In other words, if Ashe builds ONLY IE will some of her attacks go True? (Due to the +10%)
Deez Crits1 votesThey wouldn't; I just wasn't sure how Ashe's passive interacted with crit chance but yes, you can't overcap on it to improve her damage. Suffice for you to have just said "it doesn't overcap," but thanks.
The wording on the item makes me assume that if an auto attack is flagged as a critical strike, 20% of the total damage is converted to true damage. If this is not how it functions, I think "bonus damage" would be a more clear way to word it. In other words, "20% of critical strike bonus damage is converted to true damage." However, as you mention, we'll wait and see how it turns out.
Edit:
In other words, if Ashe builds ONLY IE will some of her attacks go True? (Due to the +10%)
No, the +10% is a damage amp if her target is affected by frost shot, it is not a critical strike.
grarrrg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WXKLuEer,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-02T17:35:13.825+0000)
No, the +10% is a damage amp if her target is affected by frost shot, it is not a critical strike.
And it's well established that "Ashe doesn't critical normally", hence the questions.
Putting the True damage onto the 'random bonus slow' seems counter productive to how Ashe was designed, she doesn't do that 'random damage boost' nonsense. Thus it makes more sense for the True damage to apply to the 'not 1st hit bonus damage' instead.
So the options are: _Tie it to the random-slow (and hurt Ashe's identity) _Apply True damage to every 'not 1st hit' (and risk a Marksman with a consistent source of True damage for most of the game) _Apply True damage to every 'not 1st hit', but only if she also has a +Crit item (which is slightly non-intuitive to how Ashe works, and may be tricky to code and cause bugs)
Deez Crits1 votesTie it to the random-slow (and hurt Ashe's identity) Apply True damage to every 'not 1st hit' (and risk a Marksman with a consistent source of True damage for most of the game)
In other words, one option is for enemies who are afflicted by frost arrow to be considered "critically struck" when hit by Ashe for the sake of Infinity Edge
or
*Apply True damage to every 'not 1st hit', but only if she also has a +Crit item (which is slightly non-intuitive to how Ashe works, and may be tricky to code and cause bugs)
apply Infinity Edge's true damage to enemies afflicted with frost arrow if she has a +crit item.
You do realize the only difference between your two "options" are inconveniencing Ashe to buy Brawler's gloves, right? Cuz at that point she would have "+crit". 400g separates your two options.
And if you mean the chances of proc'ing the true damage is related to her critical strike chance, then you're in the same boat as me except I'll be generous and even if it's her first auto attack that crits, she'll get part of that as true damage (it's not like her first attack does crazy damage if the target doesn't have the frost arrow debuff).
I'm honestly fine with Ashe's auto being partially converted to true damage if she gets the empowered slow on her auto. Wanna know why?
Here's literally the word for word quote of Ashe's passive in the client.
Ashe's attacks slow their target, causing her to deal increased damage to these targets.
Ashe's critical strikes deal no bonus damage, but apply an empowered slow to her target.
And I get what you're trying to argue for; Ashe is supposed to be the pillar of sustained, consistent damage through auto attacks. But that doesn't mean she can't buy a shiv.
This isn't about the champion. This is about the item and yes, if infinity edge works the way I describe she'll get slight spikes in her damage due to some of the damage being converted to true on a critical hit, but it's not like she's getting spike damage comparable to a regular ADC.
grarrrg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WXKLuEer,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T00:36:10.520+0000)
You do realize the only difference between your two "options" are inconveniencing Ashe to buy Brawler's gloves, right? Cuz at that point she would have "+crit". 400g separates your two options.
Supposed to be 3 options (didn't notice that the forum ate my front indicators, edited now, the parenthesis were fine though) _Tied to random slow _Not 1st hit _Not 1st hit but only if w/Crit item
Granted the difference between 2nd/3rd isn't likely to matter too much, as IE on it's own is still a sub-par option.
This isn't about the champion. This is about the item
It's about both. There are a few unique champ+item interactions in League, and Ashe+Crit is one of them. People expect Ashe to be the 'non-damage-spike' Crit user, so tying it to 'not 1st' makes the most sense to me.
Deez Crits1 votesIf we assume 100 AD with 60% crit chance and the new IE, it's a 20% spike in her frost-shot buffed damage on a target with 50% damage reduction. Your standard ADC, on the other hand, will get a 240% damage increase on the same target.
Obviously, these numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt because in terms of raw damage, we're comparing a higher base damage with frost shot active. However, nonetheless, unlike your normal ADC, you're not gonna notice "OH NO I JUST GOT HIT BY A HUGE CRIT" compared to what was already being dealt.
Not only is the spike a lot smaller, if you insist on your proposed interaction Ashe's damage goes off the roof (more noticeable, of course, on targets with more armor).
It won't be remotely balanced; you have to be even more lucky with a string of crits during a fight to outdamage Ashe and we haven't even talked about the fact that Ashe is a utility carry and provides slows, vision, and a stun on an ultimate before factoring in her ability to out damage the standard crit ADCs.
grarrrg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WXKLuEer,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-03T03:08:39.764+0000)
Not only is the spike a lot smaller, if you insist on your proposed interaction Ashe's damage goes off the roof (more noticeable, of course, on targets with more armor).
It won't be remotely balanced
No reason they can't tweak numbers and make it work.
Quick fix that seems to work is she only gets as much True damage% as she has Crit%. Basically, doing what they're already doing to her Crit damage, but applying it to the IE-True portion as well. 60% Crit > 60%*20% = 12% > 12%-True/88% normal.
Deez Crits1 votesI don't know if I would agree with that as a fix; I haven't crunched numbers, but even then this is a specific interaction they would have to mention in game. I don't know if a there's any specific champion-item interaction that changes how the item functions to an extent.
The current IE and Ashe aren't an example of this; 1% crit = 1% base DPS increase normally and so it's no surprise that once Ashe gets IE, 1% crit = 1.5% base dps like any other ADC. Not only that, but you can at least see the effect of the live IE on her passive damage bonus.
On top of the fact we haven't even mentioned that Ashe does indeed crit (just because Ashe's crit is tied to utility instead of damage doesn't make it not a crit), so why would her frost arrow bonus damage suddenly count as a crit for new infinity edge purposes? The foundation of your idea is already on shaky ground.
Terozu1 votesMaybe her W will deal true damage lol.
Leaf of the lake2 votesAshe will lose some damage because of this, but not for the reasons you think.
On average, ashe actually inflicts more damage over time than any other ADC, given the same amount of AD. At 100% crit on live (including an IE), her attacks inflict 260% of her AD, whereas any other ADC only inflicts 250%. Similarly, at 100% crit (without an IE), she inflicts 210% of her AD, while any other ADC only inflicts 200%. Her passive is currently set up to match the average expected damage + 10%.
However, with the IE change, IE's bonus damage is no longer being factored in as part of her passive. It only procs on a successful crit. On live, the only thing ashe's crits do is inflict a greater slow. But with the new IE, they will also convert a portion of their damage to true damage. The problem is, since the strength of ashe's crits is averaged with her non-crits, only amplifying her criticals results in a smaller increase to DPS than it would for other ADCs.
Deez Crits1 votesThe problem is, since the strength of ashe's crits is averaged with her non-crits, only amplifying her criticals results in a smaller increase to DPS than it would for other ADCs.
edit2:
Ashe actually still offers more DPS than standard ADCs as she does on live. This is under the assumption equal AD and frost shot is applied to her target.
In any case, why would you bring up this
Her passive is currently set up to match the average expected damage + 10%.
and ignore it? If the new IE were to come out today, it would be the same song and dance. Ashe's auto's on frosted targets would be dealing 210% damage at 100% crit while the regular ADC will be dealing 200% damage with true damage conversion on both. Ashe is relatively strong late game.
Ifneth2 votesI figure that Riot will just custom code her passive to accommodate the new infinity edge, just like they did for the old one.
Deez Crits1 votesI think she might be in an OK spot; I didn't account for the built in +10% bonus damage in her passive in those numbers (whoops). Overall, she appears to have a little more damage potential over the course of a fight as she is on live (assuming equal AD). However, the power of consistency comes at the price of Lady Luck as usual.
Rexxiee2 votesAshe, just like most crit focused adcs are going to be trash tier.
Wild Geese1 votesThey should just give her back normal crital damage/chance! There's no big reason for Ashe to deal damage in this different way, and personally never liked it.
The critical slow can still work the same way.
Ariel the Cruel4 votesPersonally, I preferred the static boost on Ashe over the RNG boost from standard crit chance. I would rather see Crit become her passive than for her to lose it.
TempName748141 votesi'm wondering more about how the essence reaver change will affect her. isn't ashe decent because of how much essence reaver allows her to spam r?
Thefrostyviking1 votesI also wonder about this, upvoting in hope of a rioteer noticing^^
ToothpickSamurai1 votesI'm worried for Ashe as well, I wish I could play more of her without teams being monkeys, but now she seems like she's going to lose a lot of her damage cause of how her passive works. Everyone else is going to get 100% crit chance regardless cause of the new synergy with the double zeal IE builds so it doesn't matter if she has 100% crit chance as well. On top of that her crits don't crit like everyone elses, only the slow is effected.
One funny thing I thought of though is that her W can actually crit for the sake of her slow being amplified, so this may very well mean her W now does true damage with IE.
Ifneth1 votesWhat if Ashe’s W were affected by her passive? In other words, if Ashe has 50% Crit Chance, then Volley does 10+50% bonus damage. Her AA+W+AA combos would be pretty strong.
Heck, what if W applied on-hit effects, like that of Essence Reaver? She could get some really moments and a bit of life-steal from that.
ChaddyFantome1 votesI thought her W already applied her passive.
