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No Game is Unwinnable

Brutalitops01··7 votes·737 views

Hey, guys. So I just got out of a ranked game where I was playing Twitch ADC with a Sona support. We had a Volibear jungle, Fiora top, and Yasuo mid. We were up against a Heimerdinger top, Diana jungle, Veigar mid, and Ezreal/Braum bot lane.

Bot went even in the early game, nothing really happened except we got zoned off by Braum's kill pressure. I'm not sure how the other lanes went. Now, Ezreal is the kind of matchup where if Twitch isn't ahead, he's behind. But despite us going even and me being very outfarmed because i just couldn't get close enough without risking death, I was still stronger than Ezreal in the mid game.

At level 6, Fiora is just standing under turret. She gets dove by the Heimerdinger and Diana, and doesn't move again for the rest of the game.

Seems pretty grim. But, mid has a bit of a lead and bot's level 6 is stronger than theirs, plus we scale better. Let's see where this goes.

It went pretty late game, but in the end we won. We had a few throws that made the game go longer than it needed to, but the enemy team couldn't do enough to come back other than clear waves and hope to outscale by numbers. Except that we outscaled all of them.

We went even in lanes, started pulling a lead at 14 minutes (looking at the gold advantage chart), and ended at 42 minutes with a gold lead of 12304.

How we did it? First off, focusing on objectives and grouping as early as possible. We all 4 grouped up ASAP and stayed like that, being a roaming pick force until we had a pretty decently sized lead. After all the picks we got, we would take some other objective off of it. First, we grouped bot, killed the enemy bot lane, and then got a turret into a dragon. Then, we went top (mid already had its turret down), picked off the Heimer, and then took his tower. We proceeded to rotate around like this, and we had it down pretty well. Kill, turret, other objective if possible, kill, turret, other objective. We just kept snowballing harder and harder. I was also often going off solo to get picks on people who were split pushing, mostly Heimerdinger and Diana. We had vision of all the rest of their team in one lane, while Heimer or Diana, sometimes Ezreal, were off in other lanes splitting, and they made easy targets for my bolts.

At 37 minutes was when we had our highest gold lead, 14043, and at this point we took our foot off the pedal a little bit too much. Yasuo is staying bot lane 1v5 while I'm pinging him back, he gets caught out, me and Sona go in to try to save him, and all 3 of us die, but we took a few of them with us. At this point, we have taken 2 inhibs down and have a few dragons and a baron buff. Elder is about to spawn. Then, Voli goes in 1v5 just before we all respawn and dies. We're aced for a few more seconds, and Elder Dragon is going to respawn a few seconds after us. We respawn, race there, and find that they're there, but they don't engage. We stall long enough for Volibear to respawn and help, get the Elder Dragon stolen from us, but we win the teamfight. However, some of them got out alive, and we're all too low to keep going for now. We back, deciding to live to fight again and take what we had.

The game lasts a few more minutes. We get baron, they engage a teamfight on us to try to force us off, we kill a few of them while the rest escape. Now, they're defending, but we're too strong. I open up with my ultimate, shooting all 4 of them that're alive at the same time from outside of turret range. They leave and let us finish. They even agreed to surrender 4-0 just as we killed the nexus.

Now, granted, this game was never actually too bad for us. Yes, it was 4v5, but the biggest gold lead they had was 2634. We also had a very powerful teamfight and late game comp. It really was almost always a good game for us, even after Fiora left. I mean, when she left she had a whopping 4 cs. If she was gonna do anything that game, it was give up, intentionally feed, and start throwing surrender votes at 20 minutes. Honestly, we probably wouldn't have won that game if she hadn't.

However, there are so few games that are unwinnable. The enemy team could play a teamfight really poorly and throw away their entire lead as you ace them and proceed to push to end. I once had a game where we lost a teamfight vs a very behind enemy team who had baron, they hadn't taken any towers, but while we were dead they pushed down mid all the way to the nexus and ended the game.

I also once had a game in normals where I was playing some Kha'Zix mid. I got super fed, but everyone else was so far behind that, at 20 minutes, we were over 15,000 gold behind. I started roaming and snowballing the other lanes, and at 50 minutes we were 12k gold up and won.

I've tried arguing with people that we scale so hard that we could win, but they had already given up because we lost early and they gave up because they didn't think we could win. Pretty much, the point of this post is that, if you give up and take your foot off the gas, you will lose. If you don't, they can always throw.

12 Comments

Maximum Morde1 votes

Cool. Yeah the enemy can always possibly throw, but is it worth the trouble of continuing an almost guaranteed loss for another 15-20 minutes over just getting into a new game? There is a reason why even Chess Masters forfeit from time to time. To some it is, to some it is not.

Brutalitops011 votes

I just don't have the mindset of giving up, especially in ranked, because I don't like losing LP. I know I can play better, and I'm almost always playing Twitch, so I know I'll always scale up well enough that I can hard carry the game if my team just stops throwing surrender votes, plays, and protects me. Stop making stupid plays just because "it's already over." I don't care about losing games, honestly, from a tilt standpoint, I don't mind losing games. It just doesn't tilt me. What does tilt me is when people give up and start intentionally feeding because they think it's over and we won't surrender.

redniwediS1 votes

Some people play for the individual games, where as others play Ranked as a game in and of itself.

You're the type who plays the individual games. The game at hand is what matters, and trying your best to win is how you get enjoyment out of it.

Other people see Ranked as a game of averages. Individual games don't matter as much as the long term win/loss ratio and your overall rank. To these people surrendering is just cutting your losses and starting over with a fresh game. It's not about giving up, far from it actually. These people want to win just as much as you do, it's just they want to find the best win per time played ratio possible.

That second group will surrender, but they are not the people you're describing. You're talking about people who stop playing before the game is over, where as Maximum Morde is talking about how surrendering is a legitimate option for those who want to win. It's a subtle but important difference.

Brutalitops011 votes

However, those who play for the individual games are always the ones who climb. Those who try to win, no matter what, in every game to win, are the ones who climb the fastest and most consistently until they reach their plateau. At this point, they try to improve more so that they can climb even more. If you want to win, then don't try to surrender because this game is a "waste of your time." In my humble opinion, the best way to have a good win/loss ratio is to try to win no matter what, rather than admitting defeat before the game is over so you can get on to the next game. I play to climb, and the best way to climb by far (look at ANY high ELO player who does an Unranked to Diamond series or a series where they try to climb higher than they're currently at, they ALL do this) is to never admit defeat and get on to the next game before the current game is over. Know your win condition, make sure your team knows it, and try to achieve it as a team. For me, playing Twitch, it's usually outscaling everyone else and then having my team focus on keeping me alive. I'll do more damage than their ADC and I'll do it to the entire enemy team, so if my team can just make sure that I don't die, the game is an almost guaranteed win no matter how far behind we are. The further behind you are, the better you have to play to come back, this is true.

Also, most people that I see who try to surrender aren't "playing for the highest possible win/loss ratio". This is bronze. Someone gives up first blood, they call "gg" and stop playing.

redniwediS1 votes

You're missing my point... I don't really know what else to say, so I'll just say this; both people who play for the individual games and people who play for the overall average can climb. It's a matter of playstyle, not climbing capability.

Surrendering, when used properly, is a tool that can help you climb. You clearly can't understand that just yet.

MasterAK1 votes

I can't stand when people die early (give first blood etc.) and then decide the game is over. I'm in bronze so all the people on my team (myself included) are terrible at this game and usually will give up way too early (not me on that one). One of my good friends is like this, my group of friends don't like to "abuse" the dynamic queue system so if we play together it's Ranked 5's or Normals, and we were in a normal game and my friend saw we picked an all AD team (honestly how does this happen when we're all in voice chat?) and he decided we lost the game there and decided we should ff at 20. I don't understand why people do things like this, as you said, almost no game is actually unwinnable.

Brutalitops011 votes

I'm currently 1-0 in promos to bronze 2. Nothing tilts me more than people not just giving up, but intentionally feeding, to get the game over with faster because the rest of us think we can come back and refuse to surrender. It's not just when people give up and get tilted, it's when people outright refuse to do anything other than feed that I get unhappy. Another big thing that I didn't talk about was why you should avoid being toxic in games. If any of us were being toxic or said even one toxic thing when we did our little mini throw, that game was probably over. We simply said, "Alright, that was a mistake, we can't win teamfights without our tank, let's not do that again," and continued playing. We slammed our foot back onto that gas pedal and proceeded to win 6 minutes later.

MasterAK1 votes

I personally don't get tilted except when I am playing bad, if someone else is playing bad or being toxic it doesn't tilt me. Toxicity makes me lose faith in humanity though, like what's the point in getting mad at people on the internet that you're almost guaranteed to never meet again?

Brutalitops011 votes

True. I don't get toxic pretty much ever. Sometimes, I say something that, to a tilted person, seems like passive-aggressive toxicity, to which people respond by accusing me of being toxic. In reality, I'm not trying to tilt people harder or be a toxic player. I'll often give people suggestions of things they can do to improve as players. "Hey, after this game why don't you go into a game and practice kiting?" or things like that, which they take as if I had said "learn to play noob," and no, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's constructive criticism. I'm not trying to tell you you're bad and need to learn how to play. I'm saying your mechanics could use a little work, and honestly they could always use a little work. Even the people who are in Challenger, or even the pros, don't have 100% perfect mechanics or game knowledge. I know the game pretty well, but where I fall the shortest is mechanics. I usually try to take on the role of shotcaller in games because I know our win condition and I know how they beat us. And I'm currently practicing mechanics. I've been seeing a noticeable improvement in my own kiting since I started using the Attack Move button to kite, and I've been dying less in teamfights because of it. Is my kiting perfect? No! I'm still pretty knew to practicing it. But, I know what to do. I just need to get it in my head to actually do it all the time. I'm improving as a player myself because I know what I'm doing wrong and I'm trying to get it right. But too many people just don't. They blame their teammates for not saving them when they make mistakes (which is another thing I do too often, I try to be a hero. Most of the time, it ends up saving someone without much risk to me because I just used my W to slow them down and help disengage. However, sometimes being a hero when I shouldn't be does end up getting me killed).

redniwediS1 votes

To think every game is winnable is to delude yourself. Some games simply cannot be won.

However the base message of what you're saying is true. There is no reasonable reason to play as if the game has already ended in defeat. So long as the game is still going the conclusion is not set in stone. Victory may seem unlikely, and very well might be impossible, but whether or not you will win cannot be known ahead of time.

No matter whether you have an afk, a troll, a feeding lane, or even if you plan on surrendering at the 20 minute mark you should always play as if you can still win. To do otherwise is to cheat yourself.

Brutalitops011 votes

And the other thing is that this is solo queue. These guys are disorganized, just like you are. And, if they're all ahead, they probably won't listen if someone tries to establish themselves as a leader. I was making a lot of our best calls after we made the call to group bot and kill the tower. It was me who pinged to go for dragon after that, then people started saying to go top, and I agreed that that was a good idea. We continued to play at our best and turned what would've been a lost game into a well-fought win. Why, when Fiora dced, Yasuo started calling "gg", but he didn't give up. Even though he was certain we would lose, he kept playing like we could win, and he ended with the second best score (mine being the best). To admit defeat before the nexus explodes cheats yourself, and everyone else on your team, out of LP.

One thing that I certainly suggest doing for people who want comebacks is to start practicing how to win your lane and how to establish yourself as a leader once you win in a way that doesn't make you seem toxic. I've had several comebacks, and all of them were because we had someone win lane and then establish themselves as a leader and we listened to that person, and nobody was too toxic. I realized that you really shouldn't give up a long time ago, when I first started playing PvPs and listened to someone who established himself as a leader to win a losing game. The bronze mentality, which I hate so much, is to lose before the nexus explodes. What I mean by that is that they give up and play just to get the game over with faster, pretty much just intentionally feeding, and making all of us lose LP even though the rest of us can see how we win the game. Now, there are times when I accept that it's highly unlikely for us to win the game, but this is really only when we are all behind and everyone is yelling at each other and arguing and just being toxic. And even when I do think that the game is over, I still never take my foot off the gas. I play as if we can still win, and look for how. I'm almost always playing Twitch, and a 6 item Twitch is scarier than almost any other ADC. My team gives me a front line and I get to late game and we will win almost guaranteed. Twitch's win rate only goes up and up and up as the game time progresses. You can win early, and you can win it hard, and you can win mid, and you can win it hard, and even if you don't, you almost 100% of the time have late game if your team protects you.

The Oasis1 votes

{quoted}

I've tried arguing with people that we scale so hard that we could win, but they had already given up because we lost early and they gave up because they didn't think we could win.

What about when they're the ones with a well-formed hyper-scaling team and you're a mishmost of 3 ADCs, Bard and a Shyvana jungle thats started building her 3rd damage item? Would you at least FF that if they're pushing Inhibs at 17:00? Or would you ff if you have 3-4 people on your team all flaming each other and you?

I understand the reasoning behind the "Never Surrender" mentality, and I'm assuming the high you get from winning a hopeless game is a pretty big motivator. Obviously I play to have fun too, but when this game becomes the antithesis of fun (i.e Flaming, people who have given up, everyone losing lane then continuing to make horrible plays) I'm ready to throw in the towel rather than pull my hair out.

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