People think Riven is a no skill champion because, at her skillcap, she often removes the opponent's agency to control the lane.
I think it's worth saying that should always be considered when creating champions like 
MohawkBird94 votesChampions like Riven and Yasuo are hated because, like you said, the laning phase depends on their ability to outplay themselves, and not your ability to outplay them. Yasuos and Riven rarely ever die because they got outplayed, only because they fucked up.
When you create a champion that, when played against, you have to rely on them fucking up there is a problem.
sit kid8 votes~Dopa agrees
Skorch4 votesThe only way to be outplayed is by fucking up. 0.o
MohawkBird10 votesNot what I'm saying. I'm saying the only way to outplay one is by them fucking up. They are in complete control just because of how overloaded their kits are. When playing against those types of champions no matter how good you are, it's very rare that you actually "outplay" them. You rely on them making mistakes instead of you making plays, which is not right.
Skorch7 votesThe entire game of league of legends depends on mistakes. While you cant outplay them unless they fuck up, the same goes for them, Yas and Riv cant outplay you unless you fuck up. The issue is people dont know what determines what a fuck up is between champions.
MohawkBird8 votesThat's not true. Yasuo, Riven, and other champions that are considered overloaded, flashy etc. are made to do the outplaying. A lot of other champions don't get that luxury. They are either binary or simply don't have as much in their kit as other champs do. You can play a fight perfectly on certain champions and still get outplayed based on the skill of the enemies [Insert overloaded champion].
Spaceman5pff3 votesput it this way, I can pick a good time to go for a dash trade as 
, but jayce just knocks me away with e.
Did i fuck up? not really, he just was able to figure out what was happening and took the proper course of action to counter it. He outplayed me.
messing up would be going for the dash trade but stunning a minion rather than Jayce.
Mistakes of this style and magnitude are what you must rely on to beat the Yasuo lane, with a few exceptions to champions with enough / the right tools to beat him.
Skorch1 votesYes it was a mistake you made, before going in you shouldve realized he had his e then chosen your move accordingly.
Most people don't know how to judge things like enemy cooldowns, enemy jungler location without vision, minion locations. So instead of calling that a mistake they believe there was nothing they couldve done to avoid things like that so they call it outplay.
Its not their fault as those are very advanced mechanics and we shouldnt expect low elo to be good at those, but you still have to take those into account in order to get better and balance the game.
I also can't do those however as I know I am bad at the game, but i know that there is always something you can do in any situation.
Spaceman5pff1 votesYou really just don't get how the Renekton VS Jayce matchup plays out.
Jayce sits in ranged form, pushing in the wave and denying ranged creeps with autos + ranged W. Renekton tries to sustain it with Q spam.
Jayce never needs to use abilities unless Renekton goes for a fight. In order to go for a fight, since Jayce is ranged, Renekton has to utilize his E reset. What Jayce has to do to counter this is switch out of cannon into hammer and E renekton all before Renekton can finish the dash and get into his W animation.
The mistake a renekton player can make here is giving Jayce extra time to react by trying to auto + W in the combo.
Back to the trade: Since Renekton's hitbox doesn't move forward until the dash is entirely completed, a well timed Jayce E will knock him back from the ORIGIN point of the dash and then the full distance of the knockback. The way to outplay this as renekton is to wait to dash until you know jayce is locking himself into an attack animation on either you or a minion. that split second of extra time you get is usually enough to get a W off and then dash behind him before he can E you.
The agency to win the trade lies ENTIRELY on Jayce to predict when Renekton will jump in and attempt to knock him back. Dashing in as Renekton is not the mistake since it is your ONLY way to equalize lane presence, and Jayce will NEVER have his E on CD when you have dash (at least at / after level 3).
Is the Jayce lane unwinnable? No. Does Jayce have an advantage in the lane based on kit interactions? yes.
On the note of not knowing how to manage / keep track of cooldowns, I will reiterate that the cooldown between Renekton and Jayce E is that they counter eachother and get used at the same time every time in an even skill lane. As such, there is no abuse window between the two untill level 10+ when Renekton really starts sinking points into his E.
Yes this matchup is decided by mistakes, but they are mainly mistakes that are up to Jayce to make. If he doesn't knock me away when I dash on him, that is HIS mistake. Me dashing on jayce when he has E up is NOT a mistake because of the cooldown interaction between my dash and his E. Yes, league as a whole is decided by mistakes, but some matchups leave all the agency on ONE champion, and almost none on the other.
ADepressedLeona3 votesIt's called having meaningful weakness that you can take advantage of
Skorch1 votesDont let them take advantages of your weakness. Knowing your weakness and not letting them exploit it is how you dont make mistakes on that champion.
ADepressedLeona1 votesI get what you're saying. But league is balanced around champions having clear strengths and clear weaknesses. What weaknesses do Riven and yasuo have at their highest play level? None. Meaning you can never make a play on them because they have everything in their kit to counter anything you do.
Meaning they are always in control of the battle. Which is not balanced.
Skorch1 votesHighest play level huh? How come in around Master and higher, their play and winrate drop?
ADepressedLeona1 votesBecause only a select few people actually put in the hours to master those champions when people can pick other champions and do better with half the mechanics.
Challenger/Master tier =/= Riven/Yas gods.
Skorch1 votesBut those are some of the highest play level, yes other champions are easy so people at even high elos go towards them, but people at that elo still laugh at most yasuos and rivens... With the exception of BoxBox. Nasus, another really strong low elo champ, at high elos is a joke.
ADepressedLeona1 votesBoxBox, Adrian, Revenge etc. Those are the people I'm talking about, people who actually put hours into the champion, not Riven "mains"
Also Nasus isn't comparable to Riven in any world.
Skorch1 votesexcept he is since my point was "because a champ is good in low elo, doesnt make them good in high elo"
ADepressedLeona1 votesAnd my point is people in high elo can still suck at an astronomically hard to play champion like Riven
Nasus isn't astronomically hard to play
NightmareAmazoX2 votes
are good counters though.
GULAG 4 U4 votesIt's the same thing for annie? The only way to outplay her is for her to misclick something
MohawkBird2 votesThat's really one example of a rare champion that happens to have point and click hard CC. Not many champions get that luxury, especially with rework after rework removing the point and click CC that was left in the game.
And Annie isn't exactly an example of a healthy champion either. People have been complaining about her instant cast, AoE, hard CC, nuke of an ability since the dawn of time. I'm still an advocate for adding at least a .25 delay on it too.
GULAG 4 U1 votesExcept at least you can dodge yasuo's Q, you can't dodge Yi's autos nor kha'zix's Q anyways.
You can't dodge wukong's Q neither.
Most of the champion roster can only be outplayed if they miss their shit, at least with yasuo you can dodge his Qs and play around his windwall. League is a game reliant on exploiting enemy mistakes, no one plays like a god.
MohawkBird2 votesI understand where you are coming from in saying no one plays like a god, but the sheer fact that they have the option to negate weaknesses or even have that option to control the lane like no other champion in the entire game says something on it's own.
Asayake 5150glow4 votesChampions like Riven and Yasuo are hated because, like you said, the laning phase depends on their ability to outplay themselves, and not your ability to outplay them. Yasuos and Riven rarely ever die because they got outplayed, only because they fucked up.
When you create a champion that, when played against, you have to rely on them fucking up there is a problem.
Riven: In lane, abuse her cooldowns. After that, don't bunch and she won't be able to 1v5, and don't let her kite you by not chasing randomly. Plus, it's not like you were intending to outplay her as Trundle anyway - you just wanted to right click and auto.
A tip, though, is canceling her third Q with any knock ups or displacements you may have, such as Darius E or Trundle pillar.
Yasuo: Dodge the Q, don't fight around minions. DODGE THE Q. Don't let him stack up on minions if you can, else just dodge his tornado once he gets it. You can cancel his Q's with any form of cc.
Ravore4 voteshttps://i.gyazo.com/7b534480d58e1d0bd2d45d621245ea91.jpg
You see this is exactly what he's saying you're the one reacting to them. They always have the initiative in lane because if you die once they win the lane and they're diving you at level 6 then level 11 then you may aswell dc at that point because you're getting harassed by teammates. The entire thing is they have so much room because they don't have anything to manage
Unlucky4722 votesPeople try to brush it off as "high skill cap" but that's what everyone says about lee, and I played him and was winning consistently in a week. If they really are that high skillcap, it should take longer than a week to win most of your games.
Rock MD18 votesPeople try to brush it off as "high skill cap" but that's what everyone says about lee, and I played him and was winning consistently in a week. If they really are that high skillcap, it should take longer than a week to win most of your games.
There's a difference between skillcap and skillfloor.
At his current power level, Lee's skillfloor removes most agency from a person's ability to play around Lee.
At his skillcap though Lee is absurd in ways you would never realize. Watch a Gripex montage. That's as close to Lee's skillcap as we'll ever get.
Dominick Destine4 votes[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WLvVdmNa,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-18T18:26:13.016+0000)
There's a difference between skillcap and skillfloor.
Ahem, that's BS.
There is only one skill metric. Lee is VERY low on that skill requirement because he is faceroll. His gameplay is extremely forgiving by which I mean, you can make terrible mistakes and not be punished for it and he is also manaless with very low cooldowns.
That is effectively the second most faceroll easy champ in the game, after Yasuo.
Wimbledofy16 votesclaims it's bs then tries to talk about something completely irrelevant to thing he calls bs.
Dominick Destine3 votesclaims it's bs then is complete right about everything
Fixed.
Wimbledofy9 votessays there is no difference between skillcap and skillfloor then proceeds to say something that doesn't even attempt to prove your point. If you're going to say something isn't true you have to say why, otherwise it's your word against his.
Dominick Destine1 votessays there is no difference between skillcap and skillfloor
I don't remember making such a statement, but good strawman argument.
That's 2-0, little one.
crippler385 votesfrom what you originally quoted it implies you think there is indeed no difference between skill cap and skill floor, and honestly I can't really tell what else you could be saying.
Isn't lee the kind of character with many options which means his barrier to entry, or skill floor, that one needs to reach to play him effectively is higher than average but his ceiling is much higher because he does have so many options. Options mean safety but options also mean that you have many things you can do for any situation but you have to choose the correct one, and execute it perfectly in order to achieve it, meaning to reach his cap (or ceiling) you have to work harder than most characters?
is any of that wrong?
Dominick Destine1 votesfrom what you originally quoted
I don't remember "originally quoting" anything remotely resembling what you claim I said.
That's a nice way of saying, I never said what you are falsely accusing me of saying. If you misrepresent me in order to bolster your position, that is what we call "A strawman argument". So maybe actually address what I am saying rather than spew your nonsense.
crippler384 votesmay I ask why you are cutting out most of the posts you are responding to? might as well not quote at all if you mean to respond to the whole rather than just the one little bit of nonsense you quote.
is there a reason?
I'm asking you, you yourself, if you think lee is a character that doesn't take skill to play at 100% efficiency.
or to reword it more accurately
do you personally believe that lee sin is a character that is easy to pick up and easy to master, a character that is hard to pick up and hard to master, a character that is hard to pick up but once you have you've mastered him, or in another way once again
high skill floor, low skill ceiling (floor being the player being able to not be god awful at them, ceiling being the character's complete mastery) or any other combination of high and low floor and ceiling.
if you are still confused I can say it again if you so wish in another way.
EDIT: I forgot to apologize for my rambling nature, this is me apologizing now to all who read this.
Wimbledofy3 votesWhy don't you go and look back at your posts? Or do i need to screenshot it for you? You're attitude is really annoying, you claimed I made a strawman when I didn't because I specifically replied to what you said. There is no possible way I made a strawman, since you said "that's bs" to what you quoted which said "there's a difference between skillcap and skillfloor."
Dominick Destine1 votesWhy don't you go and look back at your posts? Or do i need to screenshot it for you?
Here's an idea; Quote me on what you think I said.
And if it's from another thread, just add the link. I doubt you will find me saying what you claim I have said.
You're attitude is really annoying
I don't care if you dislike me.
Your feelings mean nothing to me, I don't see why you'd think otherwise , I don't know you.... the only person on these boards that I have even the slightest esteem for is Ariel the Cruel , because he's earned my respect (By virtue of defeating me twice, grrrr).
Wimbledofy3 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WLvVdmNa,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-12-18T19:56:28.813+0000)
Ahem, that's BS.
There is only one skill metric. Lee is VERY low on that skill requirement because he is faceroll. His gameplay is extremely forgiving by which I mean, you can make terrible mistakes and not be punished for it and he is also manaless with very low cooldowns.
That is effectively the second most faceroll easy champ in the game, after Yasuo.
It's the one in this thread that has 20 downvotes. Don't know why you couldn't just look at the first thing I replied to. You're acting like you can't make any mistakes and aren't even bothering to look at the context of the replies, if you did you would know that you did say it.
Dominick Destine1 votesIt's the one in this thread that has 20 downvotes.
Quote the part where you think I said what you claim I said. If you cannot do that then I have no interest in you pretending like I said something that I didn't say.
Or in simple terms; Evidence please.
Wimbledofy4 votesare you joking? I just quoted it. Edit: here's a link http://imgur.com/a/8TKiI
10Tickler7 votesDo you ever get tired of being shown that you're incorrect over and over again?
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Various Felonies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WLvVdmNa,comment-id=0001000000020002,timestamp=2016-12-19T04:48:05.235+0000)
Do you ever get tired of being shown that you're correct over and over again?
No, it is honestly very enjoyable to see my ego fed each time I decimate the opposition the way I have in this thread.
10Tickler11 votesI'm Delusional
"D.D., 2016"
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesleague of legends doesn't have very deep gameplay or mechanics so even the hardest champion can be learned to a productive level within a few days really. there isn't much to learn.
rengar vore4 votesleague of legends doesn't have very deep gameplay or mechanics so even the hardest champion can be learned to a productive level within a few days really. there isn't much to learn.
pfffffft
General Esdeath 17 votesThe difference between a Gold Riven and a Diamond Riven is amazing but stupid at the same time. Bump up to masters/challenger and it's just disgusting. She exists in a realm of her own, where there's no counter, it comes down to the person.
Nameless Voice15 votesI'll go one farther and say that I consider really safe champions with no proper risk to be "no-skill champions".
For example, Lee Sin is "easy" because he has so many different things in his kit that allow him to compensate for his mistakes and get out of trouble with ease. He has to really mess up hard to be truly punished for it.
Sure, he's mechanically complex, but that's not the point. I value strategy over APM, and being able to mash your buttons fast enough to negate tactical errors is just not the type of game that I think League should be. (Others, including Riot, seem to have a different opinion than mine, however.)
Ravore14 votesWhen yasuo starts dashing
DU Baymax7 voteswhen yasuo starts dashing, I can't help but wonder
"is he dashing because he wants to look good but is actually bad or is he dashing because he actually knows what he's doing"
Glory ln Death3 votesGenerally, when people are dashing, it's because they do look good, not that they want to look good. Otherwise, we wouldn't say that they're dashing.
Heh. Wordplay.
