A little worried about one feature of the new Mordekaiser: Clone skills.

Illabethe·May 29, 2019·23 votes·10,368 views

I was watching Voyboy, and there was one thing that stuck out as something his Ult on Mordekaiser should NOT be able to do:

In a duel with Illaoi, Illaoi landed a Test of Faith on Mordekaiser. Mordekaiser's ult makes him immune to both Illaoi targetting the Spirit, AND taking collateral damage from it.

This means:

Shaco, LB and Wu Kong and their clones cannot enter the Shadow Realm with Morde.

This means champs like cannot use their Pets vs Mordekaiser, essentially crippling over half their power.

In Illaoi's case, this literally meant all she had left was Q once, and 2 W's.

I understand isolating a champ as a mechanic, and that's acceptable, but even Poppy's old kit didn't make her immune to her target's PETS/Clones.

79 Comments

RustypugMay 29, 201916 votes

those champs pretty much shit on everyone with their pets if morde can become a counter to them then thats fine by me lmao

Z3SleeperMay 29, 20196 votes

Cute way of looking at it but it’s actually a pretty massive issue.

All units belonging to the target champ within the radius should be pulled as well.

On My Kill ListMay 29, 201915 votes

mordekaisers always been sorta a counter to minion based champs. i see nothing wrong with this. just means you shouldn't pick heimerdinger into mordekaiser. (or illaoi now)

IllabetheMay 29, 20198 votes

The problem I see is this: Most champions who stymie one category or another don't generally delete them ENTIRELY. Even if a champ counters minions, they minion champ can still outplay them. This one can't be outplayed.

Then there's the fact the ult/kit also counters about 3 other categories of champs. Most minion counters do NOT.

Pierce The VealMay 29, 20198 votes

I mean, Yasuo entirely counters champions like Ezreal.

Malzahar entirely counters divers.

Janna and Lulu completely ruins an assassin/diver’s day. Some, to the extent that they completely cannot do anything against them.

Teemo and autoattackers. Lots of pure autoattackers can do absolutely nothing vs teemo. Same goes for Jax during his E.

Master Yi completely messes with soft cc reliant champions.

This perfect counter isn’t a brand new concept.

SpecterVonBarenMay 30, 20192 votes

Alistar countering Leona too.

IllabetheMay 30, 20191 votes

My concern is the new Morde counters at least 5 classes of champions entirely:

Pet masters Area control champs. Reset champs. Dashing champs. Enchanters. Junglers (Can literally force a jungler to miss EVERY SINGLE DRAKE/BARON)

Having a champion counter one class of champions entirely is nothing new. Having one champ counter this many...... IS.

DiyesMay 30, 20191 votes

Wow, and what exactly is new now? Just learn when to use it then, if your heimerdinger and qre focused from morde, just wait to put your Q's. Just time then with champs like this.

And wow Illaoi gets hard countered wooow, at least i got now a champ against her, she fucks nearly everyone after 1 item.

IllabetheMay 31, 20191 votes

Lmfao the fact you think Illaoi counters everyone says what calibre of a top laner you are. CC or skirmishers both destroy her. Even Nasus can beat her now.

Pierce The VealJun 6, 20191 votes

The jungler part will probably be the only serious issue. The rest of them are clearly intended.

PedobearTheBeastMay 29, 20193 votes

Well, most of the champs with pets have some hard cc to disengage.

Heimerdinger E, Zyra E/R, Elise E, Malz Ult, etc.

If you can kite the grab by Mordekaiser, land hard cc and maybe use a zhonya, which these champs usually build anyway, you should be ok.

MalignMetalMay 29, 20199 votes

Sooo if your a smart illaoi you save your ultimate. Its not perfect, but as it stand Morde is considered a soft counter to Minion based champs.

Moody PMay 29, 20196 votes

You "save" nothing because you will automatically lose the fight without using your ult or your E. Illaoi has no winning situation in this.

U R Good At GameMay 29, 20192 votes

Most champions have some match ups where the first person to press an ability loses. This isn't really any different.

Z3SleeperMay 29, 20193 votes

It’s very different. Natural tentacles are removed. You can’t pull his spirit -> ult cuz the moment you do he can ult and remove the tentacles and spirit.

Like he said, Illaoi has no winning situation in this.

U R Good At GameMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It’s very different. Natural tentacles are removed. You can’t pull his spirit -> ult cuz the moment you do he can ult and remove the tentacles and spirit.

Like he said, Illaoi has no winning situation in this.

It's not really. Like I said, there are many times the first person to cast X loses. Almost any assassin player especially knows this. You are master yi and all in before annie spent her stun? You get tibbers one shot with very little you can say about it. Like I said, first person to do/cast X, loses. Lets reverse it. Annie spent stun? Run her down with ult and she can't stop you. First person to cast/do X loses.

Before you try to say "but morde has no reason to use ult before illaoi", again, in the above scenario, annie has no reason to spend her tibbers stuns that she knows she needs for the yi before yi comes in. This concept just isn't new. You either wait until morde ults another carry or morde dies. Until then you don't fight unless you have advantage. It's that easy.

Either way, even if we pretend it's not common for first person to press X loses, why is everyone focusing on a single champion, illaoi, for their argument to morde ult is broken? If morde ult was broken this echo chamber wouldn't be shitposting about illaoi over and over lol.

Z3SleeperMay 30, 20191 votes

See below.

Morde wins a fight where neither him or Illaoi uses R and where Illaoi doesn't use E. Illaoi never wins this for reasons outside reasonable counterplay.

U R Good At GameMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

See below.

Morde wins a fight where neither him or Illaoi uses R and where Illaoi doesn't use E. Illaoi never wins this for reasons outside reasonable counterplay.

Again, were not gonna pretend this is the only case in the game where 1 champion can effectively erase another's ult that is needed for them to win: Yasuo is still a champion. This isn't a new concept. Can't fight your lane opponent because they can negate your ult? Don't fight them.

Z3SleeperMay 30, 20192 votes

The difference is Yasuo doesn't teleport you to the shadow realm for 7 seconds when he negates your ultimate.

The difference is Wind Wall can be baited out.

The difference is champion's whose ults can be negated by Wind Wall have the means to play around it.

U R Good At GameMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The difference is Yasuo doesn't teleport you to the shadow realm for 7 seconds when he negates your ultimate.

The difference is Wind Wall can be baited out.

You mean you can pray yasuo misplays? If yasuo knows he doesn't need to use W until you ult, him not waiting until your ult animation starts simply means he misplayed not that you "baited". Given enough time, a human will misplay, that isn't a bait. Are all of syndras balls in the air? If yes, wind wall. If no, dont. The only "bait" is him breaking that win condition.

Not to mention your entire argument hinges on the fact that after morde get's released and inevitably nerfed like every rework in the game that he will be able to beat illaoi w/o ult no matter what when in actuality it could just turn out to be as simple as freeze lane next to a tentacle and he can't fight you. I.e. your argument hinges on numbers we don't and won't have for another couple patches when he get's actually tuned.

Now if you want illaoi to straight up duel morde w/o having any tentacles from passive up then your just out of your mind and this talk is pointless because half the champs in the game just dumpster a tentacle-less illaoi.

Z3SleeperMay 30, 20192 votes

Point is, there's counterplay to wind wall.

Counter Play, not just counter.

Also the fact that it's even being compared to wind wall in the first place and still being an even more gross concept with this interaction really shows something.

IllabetheMay 30, 20191 votes

The problem is that Morde's new ult literally enables this situation vs about half the champ roster. If they save their skills, Morde wins by default. If they don't save their skills, Morde Ults and creates an entirely different situation which locks out actions the player took before.

This doesn't just apply to pets.

This applies to champs like Zed who have an over time condition to their skills. This applies to champs who are about to hit an entire team with their aoe, suddenly to be drawn into another dimension where they can only hit one. This applies to healers by default, who literally are barred from both surviving the duel and working with their team for the entire skill duration. This applies to adcs hiding behind a tank front line. This applies to champs who are trying to get an objective and have the only smite in the game.....

U R Good At GameMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that Morde's new ult literally enables this situation vs about half the champ roster. If they save their skills, Morde wins by default. If they don't save their skills, Morde Ults and creates an entirely different situation which locks out actions the player took before.

Morde wins w/o ult by default based on what? PBE gameplay that we know will be nerfed like every rework in the last 4 years? This argument relies on inaccurate numbers that will change.

IllabetheMay 30, 20191 votes

No..... I'm basing that on 6 years of analytics from playing over 15,400 games, knowing every champ intimately, and using this same argument on Master Yi for that time as well.

Guess what? They finally nerfed Yi. Three times!

I gave you examples of where he class counters. His ult literally creates the save/use dilemma for almost half the champ roster, and there is nothing most of them can do versus it, once people learn him. Once he has item 3116 He can literally win almost ANY non ult duel with the upcoming kit, except on Yi, who has his own Chicken/Egg Dilemma. And those he can't can be killed by his ult.

U R Good At GameMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No..... I'm basing that on 6 years of analytics from playing over 15,400 games, knowing every champ intimately, and using this same argument on Master Yi for that time as well.

Lol and all the above is completely irrelevant w/o numbers. Having a kit's mechanics w/o their final numbers means absolutely nothing, it means what he "IN THEORY" can do. It's called theorycrafting but for some reason league players as opposed to all other genres have issues with admitting something is theorycrafting. For all you know, once he gets nerfed like every rework in the game his numbers will be too low to all-in w/o ult.

IllabetheMay 31, 20191 votes

I have yet to be wrongin 6 years, and test players have already proved everything I said.

U R Good At GameMay 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I have yet to be wrongin 6 years, and test players have already proved everything I said.

I bet lol

Z3SleeperMay 29, 20192 votes

Sooo if your a smart Morde you save your ultimate cuz you have 0 reason to use it until Illaoi uses E or R on you.

DUDE BROMay 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Sooo if your a smart illaoi you save your ultimate. Its not perfect, but as it stand Morde is considered a soft counter to Minion based champs.

Sylas vs illaoi is the same thing, he can't use her ult.

Some champs just counter others, that's how the game should work.

ShadzMadzMay 29, 20195 votes

how would this work with annie then? will tibbers just be left in summoners rift? while shes in the shadow realm?

voidscalerMay 29, 20194 votes

Illaoi spirits are counted as champions for pretty much all purposes ( you can get dark harvest or draven gold off one even if the champ themselves don't drop low) This is probably why it got seperated, bey the game counted it as another champ For this reason I don't see this interaction affecting the "minion" champs but if it does you have to remember He has literally just been revealed, the one exists to find and iron out unintended things and bugs and that interaction is likely just an oversight

And if it's not It means illaois allies can help her "1v1" by attacking the clone

DeathBurstMay 29, 20194 votes

Pretty sure the pre-existing pets are not brought to the shadow realm but they can still create new pets inside the shadow realm. Zyra can plant new seeds, Illaoi can use her E after entering the R, etc.

wolviusMay 29, 20194 votes

I don't think it will affect champs like heimer, zyra unless their pets are classified as champion. I know for a fact that illaoi spirit is counted as a champ because both jinx and draven get champion specific effects off it (excited and league of draven?)

I only wonder does it remove shaco clone etc if cast after entering Mordes ~~sexdungeon~~ deathrealm.

KnightOfEloHellMay 29, 20192 votes

If tentacles, turrets, ect are spawned prior to entering the Shadow Realm, than they will not be brought, and vice versa.

If spawned after dragged, than yes.

WolfeurMay 29, 20193 votes

but even Poppy's old kit didn't make her immune to her target's PETS/Clones.

Poppy's old ult was literally "let me ult the support while I destroy everyone else". It's not comparable. That ult made you immune to pretty much EVERY champ's pets at the same time.

IllabetheMay 30, 20192 votes

It's extremely comparable.....

Old Poppy was basically Morde's new ult.... except it could travel distances, and be tracked by both teams.

If Poppy ulted Zyra, Zyra's pets could still hurt her. If she ulted Malzahar, his pets could still hurt her. etc.

WolfeurMay 31, 20191 votes

But its use was entirely different, because it's not a 1v1. You basically render yourself immune to everyone but whomever you select, while still being able to hit everyone.

AlzonMay 29, 20193 votes

Current Morde is also a soft-counter to most champions with pets, too, since he drains full HP from them with his W recast.

OtterlyLostMay 29, 20192 votes

There are lots of problems with Morde's new ult. Like the fact that many champions just flat out can't 1v1 him and require a team effort to survive most situations anyway. I foresee this ultimate being extremely problematic.

KnightOfEloHellMay 29, 20192 votes

Take away my pets, I'll take away yours D:< They can spawn more once dragged in.

Is the Morde going to bait out the Heimer ult, than drag him to the Shadow Realm, or mindlessly ult him than die his ult?

It's all about timing.

Stars ShaperMay 29, 20192 votes

Imo it makes perfect sense and it might be already counted in his "kit budget".

The ulted champion MUST feel helpless against him, especially if their strenght isn't their own but reliant on clones or pets.

MasterDCloneMay 30, 20191 votes

then what the ult is just 7 seconds of cc with a guaranteed death at the end of it. when anounced this sounded like a 1v1 ult with morde having an advantage, in this shadow realm if shaco doesnt have his ult or the element of surprise there is no way he could ever hope to win that. also at no point should an ultimate make you feel that hopeless for that amount of time

Stars ShaperMay 30, 20191 votes

If Shaco gets caught in it with his ult already summoned then he deserves to be helpless.

MasterDCloneMay 30, 20191 votes

but can he cast his ult after he was summoned and more importantly can morde summon shaco's clone to a 1v1 because if he cant then that shaco doesnt deserve to be helpless because there is no outplay

Stars ShaperMay 31, 20191 votes

Imo it would make sense for summons to work if used after being pulled in.

Morde ult should work as a phase out in terms of mechanic.