Get close to Gold and then Riot CONSTANTLY gives me 2v8 games

5050BS·Jul 20, 2019·2 votes·1,441 views

A First year Collage student in CS could code a better MMing system.

14 Comments

BandharJul 20, 20197 votes

you are 600 games 48%wr silver 3 and silver for 3 seasons its that mentality thats holding you back from getting better after that many games that usually just means thats just where you belong i dont think its riots mming system holding you back

5050BSJul 20, 20191 votes

Thats the same thing the Rich say to the Poor.

Just pull up your boost straps.

The system is not stacked.

Just work harder.

They like you have no clue what it is like to be on the "Unlucky" side of things.

eunekid420Jul 20, 20192 votes

You just keep fooling yourself. There is no "curse of unluck" on your account. Any decent player could 1v9 and win almost every silver game purely alone. If you don't believe it then let a diamond+ player enter your account and see what happens (although it's illegal).

Myself I indeed had 100% winrate through silver on this smurf's playthrough. Please don't even bother to reply with some "Riot locks older accounts to a rank" bullshit.

5050BSJul 20, 20191 votes

Riot locks older accounts to a rank

Jng AccountJul 20, 20191 votes

Then get a new acc? I wonder where you would end up.

Kai GuyJul 20, 20192 votes

The system is stacked so skill climbs. Its literally built to prevent weaker players from climbing off luck. Its probability theory. Its law of large numbers. I have gone over this so many times man. What are you not getting.

What do you not understand about MMR that you think luck is impactful enough.

Its a system built with probability to calculate potential outcomes and set expectations biased of recorded prior results. Just like a weather forecast system does. Its not 100% accurate but its inherently not supposed to be. Its workable, you can generate reasonably accurate predictions, to the point you can build Class intervals with realistic skill to win % vs other class intervals.

The data tracked is your rating, this is massively easier to calculate then weather forecasting. 3 variables. Wins. Losses. Who your playing.. AKA what MMR range your being placed into by MM.

Rn=Ro+K(W-We). <- What part of this is it that your struggling to understand as fair? Do you need the algorithm translated to sentences? Do you not understand why a probability distribution used for WE variable generation helps make it a self correcting system? Do you not get the law of large numbers? Have you just never sat down and stared at the math behind these systems?

What, exactly, can I do here that will help you. What do you not understand. Please explain why you think its rigged vs you, what math your using to prove its a broken system. If you cant, provide anything other then anecdotal evidence please? Take a moment, think of what the steps of scientific method are, apply them, then ask if your truly being reasonable.

Here is a good spot to start if you wanna learn WTF a MMR system is. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/

A easy to read article about competitive systems. http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006/01/ranking_systems.html

The Trueskill publication. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/trueskilltm-a-bayesian-skill-rating-system/

Wikipedia to Elo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Arpad Elo's book about his system. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4566692-the-rating-of-chess-players-past-and-present

And here is the video that originally got me interested in the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA&t=340s

5050BSJul 20, 20191 votes

I have read most of those and seen the video. The video actually supports by view of Ranked ELO.

I know that when I get into a Promo game there is near 100% chance that my team will have a Rager who will Feed and or afk. There is a good change that there will be 2 of them.

This is always after having a win streak to get to promos. Enemy team will near 100% be a well made comp and work well together.

Last season I promoed to gold over 30 times and always lost because my teams were stacked with trash while the enemy team was not. There was a massive skill gap most of the time. This is in part because Riot will not stop smurfs and boosters.

ELO only works for team games if

Teams dont change over the season
Players always play to win
There are no smurfs

Since Ranked does not meet any of that, ELO does not work. Riot has put in place some shit code that does an "OK" job for Plat+ but under that the graph is complete noise. Riot does not care to improve this ether.

Riot also hard locks accounts and does not allow them to improve over time. This is why everyone says "make a smurf" and why when you do you CAN get higher Rank but it will only climb while your MMR is above a certain level. Once the accounts MMR gets broken (from trash MMing and or bad luck) the account is trashed.

Only way to fix a trashed account is to

Get boosted
Script

Those that make it out of lower ELO SoloQ have done so by

Getting Boosted
Abusing broken champs
Luck

If you dont do/have those, you will not climb SoloQ.

Oh also Riot says a lot of things but in reality it is different. They are not concerned with Balance for Rank. They are concerned with profit and LCS.

Kai GuyJul 20, 20191 votes

The video actually supports by view of Ranked ELO.

So.. the video where the creator concluded that Elo systems can be adapted for team MMR games and that you have a workably accurate represettation of skill expectations with a basic non optimized Team Elo system around 400-600 games.

Supports you views that Team Elo systems don't work and that your account, sitting at 400 - 600 games is not accurately placed? Im confused, when something directly contradicts you view how exactly are you gonna claim it supports it?

This is always after having a win streak to get to promos. Enemy team will near 100% be a well made comp and work well together. Oh good. Anecdotal evidence! Something that will NEVER convince any one because its inherently weak evidence. Well good news. I 100% don't have that experience and have won many promo games over the years. Fun fact! both are anecdotal thus its entirely reasonable to simply assume we have different experiences. Course if your claim is the systems broken/rigged because of your experience then I simply highlight mine as counter evidence which does not support your claim.

Last season you finished half way thru silver 3. That's quite a bit lower then silver 1. You really wanna say over 30 attempted promotions in silver 1?

Also the fact you consider 3-4 games as the start of a streak is terrible for multiple reasons.. You have 600+ matches. You know what the odds of seeing 3 consecutive results is even at 50% "fair" odds. (why 50%? because its the number your MOST likely to see streaks get broken at a low sample size. if its slanted to be say 60%-40 you inherently assume a higher streak potential at low values due to 1 direction being favored.)

Let me show you. For 10 games results? 6w-4l. For 10 games there all of what? 3628800 different permutations you can build from that? Any 3 numbers lining up is a "streak" so Well that happens so often its better to look for what's not a streak. LLwwLwwlww, LwwLLwwLww, LwwLwwLLww, LwwLwwLwwLL, wwLLwwLwwLwwL, wwLwwLLwwL, wwLwwlwwLL, That's it I believe. There is only 6 ways to order this set of games into a non streak. If I missed one let me know and I will edit it in.

So Assuming your just looking for a streak of 3 out of 10 games at 60%. 6 combinations of 0 streaks. The remaining 3,628,794 results are gonna be ordered in a streak. 604,789 to one Odds against I believe, your gonna have to check my math as I am liable to make errors.

More games you add? More possible streaks you can create from the results. But if you arbitrarily decided to instead of using values like 3 or 4, but decided to call 8 to 10 games a streak? this will happen never for the data set of 10 matches at 60%. So what ever value Players call a streak grossly changes the preception of how common streaks are.... and this is an arbitrary deceision PLAYERS MAKE not the devs. If Streaks are significent to riots system, it has to be the same value used by riot for it to have any value. Far as I know, thats not the case or they have not pubished anything makeing a claim they treat streaks as a significant mesurment of skill.

Why? because if you ACTUALY checked some of the links I provided youd understand that the order of results is insignificant outside of K Impact.. +R on Wins - R on Losses. The system functions like a balance. The value you gain and lost is static once its applied to your account. so Your current Raiting = Starting value + all changes to that value from the results of all the games you played. Lets throw some numbers out. Starting value is 1200. Results are from a set of 6 games. +15,-16,+19,-22,+20,+16. It does not matter what order you apply the changes. There is a net gain in any combination order that results in +32 So your K(W-We) net result = 32. Raiting is 1232 as 1232=1200 + 32 Rn=Ro+K(W-WE). I don't account for K because the Values arbitrarily set by me assume that value is generated after K impacts the K(W-We) which is each individual change. +15 thru =16.

Again.. the order matters not. Its the context of who your playing, what your K value is, and the consistent results of your performance.

What are you missing man, what is making this system so difficult for you to understand?

ELO only works for team games if

Teams dont change over the season
Players always play to win
There are no smurfs
Literally just showed you the video showing Elo can be adapted for team games. Like the math is there, it shows the curve. Its not even an optimized system used. Provably you can generate class intervals in a 5v5 team game. That's the entire trueskill publication I shared. This is peer reviewd stuff man, your statement 1 is PROVEN TO BE FALSE. Share the math if you wanna disagree or just admit that "Team Elo wont work" is just your oppenion and your unwilling to change your view regardless of evidence because you just wanna stick to your gut. But uh.... I gave you multiple sources that make a claim its doable and share the math and logic. So no, Team Elo does not require Teams to be a static Rooster. Its just unable to be treated like 1v1 for RNG teamamtes and adds more time to rate accuatly.
This is easy to take apart. Account for individual impact. If you personaly play to win and People who don't play to win are what is a majority decided in fair skill matches. Then your team is 100% favored to win. 10 players, 1 is you. 5 per team. 4 slots for a casual on your team and 5 for the enemy. The odds are always higher the enemy team will get more halfassed players. Law of large numbers is a thing. So what 11% odds your favored to win if its just half assed or weak players that decided matches?
Ok so your claiming that skill impacts results as higher class interval players in lower skill intervals heavily decided games? Well... Yea? That's kinda the entire point of a competitive ladder? Sort by skill interval? By nature thou... The average player is gonna be the majority of the ladder. that's 100% the reason they are called "Avrage" player. Smurfs can only impact players lower skill. Players, inherently, who would Never climb the ladder because they are deadweight at higher skill intervals for the exacte same reasons smurfs crush them. They are just not strong enough.

Ok what else did you say I can pick apart here.

Riot also hard locks accounts and does not allow them to improve over time This is not done in MMR systems ever. Point is constant self correction. So your claiming Riot breaks the basic rules of a functional MMR system. With 0 proof other then "Kai I said its true just believe me!"

I don't. But I will humor you. On this account I spent 3 years being bronze=silver. Does that get me locked down? I started this year with something like 40-50 Losses to recover because I was trying to get a feel for a role and playstyle im not great at. Sylas and did infact have some of that bad luck which resulted in something like an early 16-18 Losses on one of my Mains Bard . Is 60 ish games enough to get a player locked down into an MMR?

If your gonna claim it happens please provide some #. Cuz.. well... I have been lower MMR at times, for YEARS. That's clearly not the case anymore. And yea If I smurf Its really easy to rack up wins in The MMR's I used to be stuck at. So How many YEARS do you need to spend before Riot locks you down? Apparently more then 3?

Get locked down? Well I started my season pretty badly trying to improve off roles. So... how many games needed you think? 50? 100? Cuz I Sat down and learned a new champion then went and soloed Flex at Silver MMR and managed to climb.

Only way to fix a trashed account is to

Get boosted

Script Those that make it out of lower ELO SoloQ have done so by

Getting Boosted

Abusing broken champs

Luck

Get boosted 2 Script.

1)So.. Give some one better your account so they can win lots of games because they have higher skill? or have a smurf que with you and carry games because they are higher skill?

So... Higher skill = Fixing a Trashed account?

Scripting? So... Cheating to use programs to artificially inflate your skill above what your able to accomplish by playing.
So.. Cheating = higher skill. Higher skill = Fixing a Trashed account... again.

1 Get boosted. 2 Abuse champs. 3 Luck.

1 )Again.. so skill impacts ability to win? 2) Abusing champs can be done by literally anybody? And you can abuse them... eh? Like what the best WR in Silver on a champions around 55% at the moment? My, how abusively OP Zilean middle is. Like... Bans or changing who you play are tools available for any player? 3) Law of large numbers > Luck. We have an entire city build around this principle. Vegas baby.

So recap. TLDR. You say Vid supports you despite it making claims that directly contradicted your statements. You provide Anecdotal evidence and provided no sources or math. Your claims to support individual skill doesn't matter are constantly equivalent to OMG SKILL MATTERS. (smurfs, boosters, streaks, scripting.) You don't seem to understand Large #s. You provided no proof for "riot hard locks old accounts". You don't seem to understand inherently you don't expect stuck low elo accounts to climb because that's the correct skill interval for them to be at. You don't seem to account for the finite # of accounts at any given time.

man PLEASE start providing proof or sources or the math+ logic. Don't make unsupported claims, Don't use your personal experience as if its applicable to any and all other plays. AND STOP TREATING 3 GAMES LIKE ITS A SIGNIFICENT ENOUGH VALUE TO CALL A STREAK. Heres what your account looks like. 320W 338L. If I call 6 a streak? 1 win streak this season. 3 Loss streaks. Loss streaks are early in the year. 2 of them account for more games. One is a 10 game loss streak. What the hell do I need to do to help you understand this stuff man? Are you just unwilling to change your mind when presented with evidence that contradicts your feelings? I will try to help you understand the concepts here if you let me. Just be reasonable,Ask smart questions, & stop parroting Board Ti

5050BSJul 21, 20191 votes

Its amazing how much energy you put into this. Its almost like you have some personal investment into defending it.

Im sure your math is good and yes on paper in a black box the system you put forth works for the mid to upper levels.

Issue I have is that most players are not in the mid to upper levels. That Riot hides there system. That Riot is a company that cares only about profit. They as a company only concerned with profit their models are not about balance. They are about making money. ELO system you point to are about making a far ladder. Riot is not concerned with that. They only want to make the Rat pull the leaver (Im sure you know what Im referencing here). My Trust in Riot to use a fare system is about as much as I trust a spider with a fly.

You can put forth all this theory craft but unless you have a white box you cant say really anything.

Im saying Riot does not use those systems like that.

EY3 Tyr4nTJul 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Its amazing how much energy you put into this. Its almost like you have some personal investment into defending it.

Im sure your math is good and yes on paper in a black box the system you put forth works for the mid to upper levels.

Issue I have is that most players are not in the mid to upper levels. That Riot hides there system. That Riot is a company that cares only about profit. They as a company only concerned with profit their models are not about balance. They are about making money. ELO system you point to are about making a far ladder. Riot is not concerned with that. They only want to make the Rat pull the leaver (Im sure you know what Im referencing here). My Trust in Riot to use a fare system is about as much as I trust a spider with a fly.

You can put forth all this theory craft but unless you have a white box you cant say really anything.

Im saying Riot does not use those systems like that.

so in a sense, you are saying league is pay to win

Kai GuyJul 21, 20191 votes

Its amazing how much energy you put into this. Its almost like you have some personal investment into defending it.

I get the implications your trying to make here.... But you wanna talk about effort? How about complaining non stop for over 4 years?

Talking about dedication? Years of you discussing the topic and your arguments still has no substance other then OMG TRUST ME GUYS?

See how I provided a link? See how I show evidence, things that are provable? You make complaint threads and have going back for 4 years. This is something I can say, then I provide the evidence that supports what I just said. Try it some time. Imply I have ulterior motives rather then just being a nerdy dude who likes math if you want. I can do the reverse just as easily and throw shade at your motives as well... which... is pointless? Because I want to educate you and fix your confusion on the topic to have an actual conversation.

You can put forth all this theory craft but unless you have a white box you cant say really anything.

I cant make claims to riots exact system, but as MMR sytems inherently run on arbitrary values I can check the results to see if there is any contradiction between theory and reality. Educated guesses are realistically more accurate then ignorant ones.

The argument that "if you don't have a white box" would also in a very litteral fasion apply directly to everything your saying on the topic as well. So if you truly believe this then you also believe that nothing you claim has any merit. What a weak attempt to discredit the effort I put into studying this stuff.

So, where exactly are we in this conversation, my goal is to help educate you and clear up your misunderstandings. Give me a hand, reply directly to something. Use box quotes, that makes it easyer.

So by your own admission I made an "Amazing" Post that's high energy? (is that a thing? weird term to use imo, effort might be better.) and so your response was to make 0 references to any of its content. That's not helpful.... I don't care why you think riots greedy or what you think their games balance health is at. LCS is not a topic I brought up, I am not looking for their designee philosophy's, and that shits not remotely related to the conversation at hand or my previous post.

I want to fix your incorrect opinions to reflect reality. So stay on topic and be direct if your gonna keep replying to me. Or admit your just using your opinions for every single viewpoint you have. That youd rather just use them for everything and have no desire to learn.

If my efforts going to be wasted on you just save me time and say it. Show proof. Don't just share your oppenions and feelings. Back it up if your going to claim it as a fact.

Riot locks older accounts to a rank

Ok... I am on an account going back to season 1. When exactly is it supposed to be locked into place? Its it just per year then? Each season you have lock down? Provide some body to your argument, some evidence, make a claim or a statement.

Did I manage to get you to change your mind about Team Elo yet? Do you still think

ELO only works for team games if

Teams dont change over the season
Players always play to win
There are no smurfs

is true? If your mind changed can I get you to update me on what you now feel is correct.

Do you really not understand the contradictions your making? Saying stuff like a skill rating system is broken because low skill players cant climb? That an account is totally locked into place by devs… except for if they 1 get high skill players to carry them, 2 Use champions to climb... (something thats an equally viable option for all players.) or just... 3 random luck saves the day? How exactly are you locked in place when, being better would allow you to climb. Playing other picks would allow you to climb (your champion pick is a decision you make, not riot.) and that just random chance (how are you claiming its intentionally made to get you stuck if luck is a factor) would allow you to climb?

How's that support your stuck? Why should your argument not be read like this. Its Riots fault if your stuck and you remain stuck in place unless you, play better, do something different, get lucky. yes.... that sounds like some real devious manipulation from riots end.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Here's my expectations. You wont want to change your mind. You wont be direct like I am asking. Your gonna try and evade every attempt I make to get you to show some actual proof for your claims.

Id like to be wrong but this is what i'm expecting from you.

EedatJul 20, 20194 votes

You know I can really see some people just getting really awful luck at the beginning of the season. There absolutely has to be people out there who have gotten the short end of the stick for the first 50 games. Maybe even 100 games. But bruh, you have over 650 games this season and you still think Riot is rigging games for 9 other players at a time just to keep you down? Like really? For 4 years straight?

EY3 Tyr4nTJul 20, 20191 votes

i know the feeling..start closing in on silver 1 and get stacked enemy teams and auto loss games that arent winnable,afks,ragequitters.does the player quality change that much from silver 3 to 2? its been noticeable upon getting 50 lp silver 2