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If we get a support update

Big Lincoln··4 votes·1,626 views

I want to see a wider gap wedged between their functions and a bigger emphasis on niche power as well as some gameplay issues addressed

as it is there's a good amount of overlap between both traditional 'enchanter' supports Lulu Soraka Janna Karma Sona and some of the tank supports Braum TahmKench. They have a lot of the same general purpose, so one of them usually ends up crowding out the others when strong, and a good chunk of them also have problems with low counterplay, which became most egregious when they were strong enough to dominate solo lanes.

Supports that stand out to me are Thresh Bard Taric Zilean. I think Lulu is an in-between case; she has a little too much in common with other enchanters, but she has the really interesting characteristics of a support that greatly benefits on-hit style champions, that could easily be emphasized a little more in tandem with being a strong anti-assassin or anti-stealth champion.

Soraka needs to be something other than a raw healslut. It makes her very lopsided; if her heal is too strong she's top tier, otherwise she sucks. Janna can be the go-to enchanter for pure defense/anti-diver stuff; she has some gameplay issues but her niche is well-defined. Sona probably needs larger than a class update? Karma, I don't really know what to do with her since her community is so split on her. Zilean is kind of old-school and probably does warrant an update, too, but again, I think the scope of it would be beyond a class update.

Tahm and Braum also have similarity issues too; they even have vaguely similar names. Both of them have a slow, a conditional stun, and an ability that directly protects their teammate. Possibly, push a little more focus towards making Tahm offense-oriented again since you gutted the shit out of his fighting power a while ago, and let Braum be the ultimate defense guy.

Also try to make some of these guys playable in other lanes/the jungle. Once counterplay issues to some of these champs get addressed, there should be no reason to refuse them the right to take a solo lane's gold income.

14 Comments

Ravenhale3 votes

There's nothing wrong with having a dedicated healer. I think she's in an okay spot. Sure, she's "garbage" in the current state of high damage in the early game which is where her heal was balanced for. There are some tricks to make her relevant in the late game, but there really should never be a scenario where she can out-heal late game builds. Tone down early game damage and she'll be fine again without any tweaks to her numbers.

She has an interesting kit for herself. I like the way her Q&W work in the laning phase. Her silence zone is sort of just there. Nobody should ever be rooted by it and it's actually more effective offensively than defensively. I can't even label it as peel without snickering. Her R is ... boring. While it's nice to heal someone across the map... it's only real function is to steal assists across the map since I rarely feel like it ever saves anyone.

(Level 7 Soraka, if you were curious)

Janna... she's boring. There's like nothing interesting in her kit. I like playing her with a full MS build because being fast is hilarious... but it's like the only reason to pick her would be to sit near your ADC and react. You can try being aggressive with her, but there's not much in her kit that rewards that behavior. Her W robs her of her movespeed while reducing theirs. Reminds me of Kayle... except Kayle can actually do something with a slowed target. Janna... hey, I slowed them but they can still avoid my Q which has to charge up to reach the range of my W and my Auto Attack range is only a little more than Thresh. In order to land everything, you'd have to literally be on top of them and ... why aren't they killing your pointy eared arse?

It's not bad being a peel/shield bot. It wins games. But it would be nice to have something that was rewarding aggression in her kit. Hell, make her R a smaller AoE target like Tibbers. She could pretend she's Gragas.

(Got the Level 6 but too lazy to get her Level 7 shards which would be effortless)

You didn't mention Nami... whom I feel is a more challenging version of Sona. I find both fun to play but Nami is infinitely more rewarding with her kit. Sona suffers from the identity of an aura based champion that just presses buttons (ult being the only exception). It's hard to allow her to be strong with the ease of her kit. I'm going to just say that League is fine having easy champions for casual players. If anything, it feels off that someone like Nami isn't that much stronger, though I concede she trades some damage for CC.

Karma is taboo. I've only known her as a Utility Mid Laner that had better Support capabilities than Lux. With Lore representing her as a leader of her people, I have always felt it strange for her to be a shield based support.

Lulu is the fun version of Janna. Fix Janna.

I actually don't have Tahm, but I've never really thought of him overlapping with Braum. Braum can sort of initiate and peel, but feels more geared around countering poke. Tahm's whole identity is devour. Eating enemies or allies and spitting them under towers. In some odd cases, eating some champs that have AoE damage that is not interrupted while swallowed (found out this works when a Tahm ate Sejuani). I guess there is some overlap, but it feels like they have clearly defined identities.

Big Lincoln2 votes

There's nothing wrong with having a dedicated healer.

I don't mean to say that she shouldn't be THE healer of League; I mean that there should also be something else to define her. Like, using Overwatch as an example, Mercy isn't just the healer, she's a damage boost too. Something to that effect; still strong healing, but has other strengths, too.

Janna... she's boring.

I agree. Janna is a very low interaction champ; probably the least interactive in the game. I think she should still be a primarily defensive champion as the shutdown option for divers and juggernauts, but the way she currently plays, those enemies don't really get to do anything in teamfights against her. Her niche is fine; her execution is not.

You didn't mention Nami

I don't really have a lot to say about her. I like the concept of her being able to speed up allies and being generally versatile, but I've never found her particularly interesting. I have her as a pocket pick when Bard and Taric are both bad choices. There's nothing I'd really change, short of maybe encouraging more ways to use her passive to let teammates run around in fights.

Sona suffers from the identity of an aura based champion that just presses buttons (ult being the only exception).

I think the problem is that she's really burst-oriented; she dumps everything as often as her resources will permit. You could still make an aura champion possible, but I think they should shift her to more of this sustained presence that requires active participation. I had an idea where they played up her musician aspect, and she could mix/match stances for different buffs and had to hit auto attacks/'notes' to keep up those auras and make them stronger over the course of a fight. It's not something I went into great detail over but I've always enjoyed the thought of it.

Lulu is the fun version of Janna

Lulu has a lot of counterplay problems too; everything except her Q is point and click, and E is instant. When she was able to go solo lane, she was bullshit. I like that she's this really snappy, fast-paced character in teamfights with a lot of decision making on who to put her W and E on, but she's always been kind of an issue when she turns into a dominant pick due to the low amount of options she gives her opponents. I also like the idea of her becoming a bit more niche as a support who props up a specific kind of carry, but I've always been of the opinion that supports should be more deliberate choices and I understand it's probably not the direction more dedicated Lulu players want for her.

I actually don't have Tahm, but I've never really thought of him overlapping with Braum.

They have fairly distinct differences but I don't feel like they're distinct enough. That pretty much sums it up, I guess; I'd be happy making Tahm's ult stronger, or at least feel better to use instead of being worse than Ryze AND TF for map transportation.

chipndip12 votes

A few thoughts:

Janna: She's way too passive. Hell, all enchanters are too passive, but her more-so. No one's going to appreciate that type of game play.

Sona: She was too passive a long time ago. Riot took the wrong way about it to fix that issue. The game is steadily moving to a state where it doesn't appreciate extremely low skill floors, and her kit has just that. To boot, her "mini-rework" made it EASIER. It's impossible for her to be a rewarding champ to play as/with/against with a kit like this one. Mainly, without ult, she's hardly there. There needs to be a bigger emphasis on smart, potent usage of her skills, not just mindlessly mashing them.

Tank supports: They're actually well-designed champs that do very different things from each other. The issue of overlap is primarily for enchanters. Tank supports, vanguards and wardens, are very well done.

Nami: Yeah, she's well done too. Just a bullet adding that.

The items: Adding it because it's a glaring flaw that no one seems to look at when looking at the role holistically. If playing support champs in the support role is going to be fun, the answer to "what should I build" shouldn't be "Redemption and Locket" EVERY SINGLE GAME. Something needs to be done about support itemization, because so far it's "The Redemption/Locket Show with Features from a Bunch of Useless Pieces of Junk". Itemization should feel strong when you're picking items based on the both the situation and your champion's strengths. Support itemization is just "Locket/Redemption". This is bad and no one cares.

Ravenhale1 votes

I don't mind transitioning to a passive playstyle towards the late game. Most supports and peel based champions should ease into this role after the laning phase to protect the damage dealers. My problem with Janna is that she pretty much starts in that mode. There's nothing in her kit that rewards her to be aggressive in the laning phase. Her Q is a high cost spell so she can't zone without depleting her resources to shield. Her cheaper W is only a little more than a basic attack unless you decide to level it up instead of your shield.

Soraka, in comparison, can zone like a monster with her cheap Q and can justify giving it levels over her W if she's landing them, because hitting a champ with a Q boosts the healing on her W.

I still haven't committed to the unholy duo of Redemption/Locket despite a majority of my games being in the Support role. I've been trying Redemption out on my Morgana and have seen absolutely no benefit in having this item on her. I'm thinking this is because I'm building it too early and Redemption has yet to feel useful during the laning phase.

I'm very reluctant to bother building this on Leona, though I religiously use the Knight's Vow (Bond of Stone)/Locket setup on her.

With the health nerfed on Redemption, it doesn't allow Soraka to abuse the Warmog's free healing. She's still better off dealing with the stacking mechanism of RoA (should manage free heals at Lvl 14 with an Eye/Warmog/Fully Stacked RoA and some tweaks to masteries).

I'm of the opinion people build the Redemption/Locket duo because it's more visible and engaging, with little regard to whether or not it actually has the best numbers for any particular champion. Even with the synergy of Redemption boosting the Locket's Active... I'm not sold on the numbers. It's likely due to the ELO where everyone runs out of the Redemption circle or backs off when the Locket shield goes up. How can I put high value in actives that not only relies on my decision to use properly but also for my team to abuse? If the numbers are there, I use them.

chipndip11 votes

If you're worried about numbers, you should be using both Locket and Redemption by now...

Ravenhale1 votes

It depends on the Support. If you insist that every support has to be built the same way, I don't know where to continue this discussion. I think you are setting yourself up to fail if you build Zyra the same way as Lulu.

chipndip11 votes

Enchanters, not the other mages.

Ravenhale1 votes

Oh, well... yea. If this is strictly about shield/healers whom directly benefit from Redemption with Locket being preferred over GA and Zrot (which could be taken over Locket if you are Karma/Sona since you already have a strong team shield)... I agree. In many cases for these enchanters, you will still build Ardent because the Heal/Shield Passive stacks and you will rarely do the damage to warrant building Athene's. Crucible is still lackluster and has no priority over other alternatives.

I think my last game with an enchanter was with Lulu and I was experimenting with Harbinger because I was with a Lethality ADC (Varus). If I had been with a Crit based ADC, I would have gone with Ardent or Locket. I know I built Zrot at the end instead, but that's just old habit over sensible logic. On a single target shield enchanter, Locket is the better decision in all scenarios.

My hesitance to build the duo on Soraka is mostly to hold on to the RoA/Warmog no health cost healing mechanic. This could be another nostalgia matter since it cannot be abused till Level 14 and many games can be decided by that point. But the numbers actually favor this build, since RoA has 100 AP fully stacked which boosts healing more than a 10% Heal Passive. Even at 60AP (initial buy) this translates to 36 more healing which is more than the 20 health the 10% Passive will boost a Rank 5 Astral Infusion. The AP and Heal Passive on Ardent make it preferable to Redemption and naturally you want Locket as your final item to give some resistances to back up all that health along with that handy Team Shield. There just ends up being no room for Redemption... though I suppose you could always sell boots and pick it up.

The big call out on this build is that it is blatantly lazy. There's no skill in buying the RoA/Warmog duo.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Karma is taboo. I've only known her as a Utility Mid Laner that had better Support capabilities than Lux. With Lore representing her as a leader of her people, I have always felt it strange for her to be a shield based support.

Absolutely agree. Although historically Karma has always had the biggest shield in the game, her current focus on AoE shielding thematically, does her a disservice. If Riot had gone with more emphasis on the movement speed component of her her RE, I'd understand that more with the idea of her being a leader. As a utility mid laner she needs her damage options back, and better designed multi purpose abilities to tie in with her "Enlightened One" trope.

Lulu is the fun version of Janna. Fix Janna.

I had to fully deep this statement... it's so true it hurts. I do really like Janna, she's one of the few champs I've managed to get m7 with, but she's way too non-interactive and simple. Lulu does the same thing Janna does, but in a much more creative, engaging and interesting way. I definitely agree she should be rewarded more for making offensive plays, I'm curious to see how Riot would go about that.

Ahristocats2 votes

Sona needs one of the biggest rework among the enchenters

her kit is one of the kit that has the least amount of counterplay least amount of satisfaction least amount of interaction

her kit is just no bueno, and has been proved MANY TIME that it can only work with a lot of ap

Ralanr1 votes

I think Riot is confused on where to take Soraka. Healing in league is hard to balance because when it's good it makes effort into aggression almost meaningless (say what you want about shields, they're temporary. Healing can just all the damage you did null and void. It's like trying to hurt an early game Vayne only for Soraka to heal up all the poke). So her healing can never be good outside of maybe her ult. Now being the healer but only being good at it with your ult hurts the purpose of the character.

I guess one thing is to better emphasize the utility of a medic outside of healing. Her passive kinda does this by making her an ambulance towards low health targets. Though beyond that I'm not sure what could work. One idea is to give her a targeted cleanse on a basic ability, but that idea just isn't balanced.

MisterShameless1 votes

My personal take on how Karma should have been changed during patch 5.10 This would make her a viable mid laner and support without changing much. I have a lot of comments for each buff/nerf they have given to Karma from between now, up until patch 5.10. I would also like to have her current passive moved to her ult and bring back her old passive on top of these changes I've mentioned with a small nerf to it, scaling by 1, 1.5, 2.

{quoted}

Hey Hiemal, I think they should make her R+W a flat heal (seeing as how it turned out very well for Swain) with it doing double damage (basically her old R+W before patch 5.10 with a new heal), but remove the R+W snare bonus. No one uses the R+W for the snare, its super rare when Mid and Support (and top) to use R+W for the snare and not the heal.

The R+E can be like a Galio ult, the damage it adsorbs overloads the shield, when it ends or the shield is broken/destroyed, it detonates and deals AP AoE damage to near by enemies. This promotes/encourages your team to go in a fight. My other idea is to have R+E give the shielded players an aura that reflects damage. Just remove the buff from patch 6.6 while also allowing R+E to shield minions (not for regular E).

Personally I think these are the changes that should have gone through for patch 5.10. Its a good overall buff to Mid, Support and possibly Jungle (Since I'm not really complaining about the Jungle being able to get hit by W, but its an easy target to reduce her power in her kit without much of a fuse for me). Sure it hits Tank Karma kinda hard, but Karma was never really meant for the Tank role (this coming from someone who enjoys playing her as a tank).

Sukishoo1 votes

Also try to make some of these guys playable in other lanes/the jungle.

lel. A wide variety of the support champions are very well usable in other roles.

Zone of Endless1 votes

I don't understand why people think Janna is not fun to play.

Every champ is passive if you don't fully understand their kit and use it to its full potential.

You can play aggressively with Janna if you plan everything. She's not one of those champ where everything is instant which I guess what everyone want these days is that feeling of instant gratification.

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