I know you guys are a small indie company and all but it'd be really nice if you designated like a team of your workers or something like that to balancing the champions, items, and runes. I think that would be a very smart idea for you guys. I know it would take a lot of work to do this but I think that it would be beneficial in the long run even though you're a small indie company.
The Bad Touch68 votesThey have a balance team.
It's one guy in his mom's basement.
He mains assassins.
Shaydrox21 votesmore like adcs lmao
Rexxiee3 votesmore like adcs lmao
Yeah because riot totally didnt trash adcs for multiple seasons in a row, they are biased towards them!
If only, adc is complete dumpster fire to play now.
AirKingNeo16 votesIf only, adc is complete dumpster fire to play now.
That guy is exaggerating, but so are you.
ZeroSixTeen3 votesmore like adcs lmao
You having trouble with adc? play any fighter/bruiser or assassin(dont know the difference any more, bruisers have 3K hp, assassins dont?), buy duskblade. Your 250 dmg q now deals 40% of their hp. ulting is reseved for those few times that you miss your q,w and e. then get yohumus, now you kill them with q + aa + aa. using full combo is overkill, use q and w to kill them before they or their team can react.
Vaptr2 votesI completly agree with this. I play for 5 seasons so I remember the asassination meta form s4 or s4 (do not remember right now). Even if it was giving us a royal pain in the ass, those assasins were barely getting over 2k HP so if they were focused, their only strenght was eliminated. Nowadays, I truly cannot understand how full AD champs with BC have comparably same HP as me palying bruiser with 3-4 HP dedicated items. The only difference is I am getting close to 250 AD while they have OVER 400 HP. There were times, when one had to be super fed and super farmed to get over 300 AD. But as I see it and (and it is not even the case of someone being super fed), 450 AD is not a problem (not even talking about 650 AD Jhin (ok, they had dragons and shittt..but still)).
Furthermore, I totally agree on huge balance changes since ADC can nowadays literally oneshot people .. what was asassins jobe back there. I remember it very well - it was called DPS meaning damage per second. But RIOT probably found a new meaning of DPS, because nowadays, lvl5 champions with barely 1-2 finished items make people disappear in that 1 second. That is their explanation, afraid I am..
and one further note .. I remember the times when lane phase was based on trading. Trading, I am afraid (again) does not exist anymore. Not in the form of micro-calculations, distance and minions abusal. Literally everything is focused on burst damage and all in situation in which, once again burst works better than serial casting (wtf is Xayah and DPS ADC if she can deal close to 1000dmg with her E (or is it W?idk..))... And please, do not tell me ´to play that op burst champs´..
I used to play this game, because actual skill could have been sxpressed. Today, I play only because it became a habit .. while the game is based on 1 (mostly lucky) situation. As I see it, raw power overcomes stratedy and higher order thinking.
I am 31, working as a researcher at University. My work performance is based on overcomming subjective thinking and on not being biased. I did not share my perspective because I am a low elo scrub and cannot stand beating.. I love challenge and I do not mind losing in situations, where my opponent legitimately outpalys me. I do not mind playing from behind, when I need to think even more .. but what I truly do not like is losing 1600 HP in 1,14 sec at lvl 9 .. while any of my spell animations did not even reach her target.
Hayaishi210 votes[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-31T09:29:23.987+0000)
They have a balance team.
It's one guy in his mom's basement.
He mains assassins.
Seems like he turned into an Irelia main now.
SangreDeNoche2 votesSeems like he turned into an Irelia main now.
With the way she functions I consider her an assassin lol
She even isolates her target(s) with her ult.
Lil Homie busta2 votesKnown as xXxPussySlayerxXx, the legend.
AirKingNeo5 votes>claims assassin bias
>assassins still aren't being played compettively
Slythrin Umbreon3 votesThey've learned that they lengths they have to go to to make assassins viable in pro play legitimately renders the game unplayable for everyone else.
Even worse, the unwanted players don't just give up and start maining assassins, and then janky shit like this that is neither fun to play as or against repeatedly pops up no matter how many times they nerf it.
AirKingNeo4 votesexcept in high elo
still doesn't see assassins
low elo needs to get better at the game instead of complaining about being stomped by 'noob stomp' champs
GigglesO1 votesexcept in high elo
still doesn't see assassins
low elo needs to get better at the game instead of complaining about being stomped by 'noob stomp' champs
That’s because assassins are still better balanced on having to hit 2-3 spells than most divers like irelia.
We have too much of a damage mentality to have real trade offs.
Fnatic ComeShot1 votesand he is still virgin and will ever be.
Volocaust2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-31T09:29:23.987+0000)
They have a balance team.
It's one guy in his mom's basement.
He mains assassins.
It isn't riots fault you have a 48% winrate in silver 3.
Cavesloth8 votesIt's scheduled for preseason 2020.
ModCaptainMårvelous5 votesIndeed they are.
The caveat is that it's balance for good players.
NotAPurpleFrog7 votesIndeed they are.
The caveat is that it's balance for good players.
Yes lets balance off the 5% and not the 95%. Pretty sure that's why past government systems fucking failed. They benefited the 5% and not the 95%
Lil Homie busta4 votesHe didn't define good players.
What if he's talking about the people who spend their spare time mastering their champions, lanes and matchups -- you know, playing the game -- instead of complaining every on the boards with sarcastic tone?
Pika Fox6 votesYoure just insulting yourself with that comment, suggesting the 95% and yourself are incapable of learning. They balance for high elo unless something is insane elsewhere. Thats how it should be. The 95% will adapt. If you refuse to, have fun in iron 4, because even bronze players adapt over time.
ModCaptainMårvelous4 votesBasically this.
Trickle down is real when it comes to balance. Top Viktor isn't in every game just because some Bronze player thought it was fun, Unsealed Spellbook wasn't picked up on a whim and the very state of botlane wasn't decided because "wouldn't it be fun if an ADC and support went bot?"
Good players WILL adapt.
DaCurtis4 votesConsidering what they're doing with the runes this upcoming pre-season, I'm perplexed why people are still complaining.
The new stats are going to cut out so much fucking damage, I won't be surprised if the tank meta comes back.
The Bad Touch23 votesConsidering what they're doing with the runes this upcoming pre-season, I'm perplexed why people are still complaining.
The new stats are going to cut out so much fucking damage, I won't be surprised if the tank meta comes back.
I don't think you actually read all of the changes. :)
Bone plating is being effectively removed. We are only get 5 armor or 6 mr to compensate. No one is going to go double defensive stats because the gold value is absolute crap. You short yourself over 200g by going double defensive over double offensive not including slower clear speeds, slower tower taking, harder to cs ect.
Best case scenario we are trading 45 reduced damage for less than 4%-5% reduced damage from a single type.... at level 1. Which would require a level 1 health of 900 to be equivalent.
At level 18 with typical melee base armor and + Tabi's it would take 5450 health for the new +5 armor to beat out what boneplating already gives us. AND that would only be effective vs physical damage.
In other words... damage is going up again vs anything that ain't an adc/assassin/burst mage. Also armor scales in effectiveness with HP which is something carry roles generally don't have a lot of to begin with.
For example the +5 armor is going to give a champion like Caitlyn an effective 60 hp at level 18. Which is basically nothing. Just over 1/2 of 1 tick of ignite. Which by the way is going to ignore that bonus armor anyway. :)
A person can make a good argument for the scaling hp being mandatory though.... but it adds less hp than we already get. :)
Alzon2 votesAh, but your base HP plus regen, potions, and level up should be well over 900 HP before first back. Also factor in how Bone Plating can very easily be negated with a single isolated instance of damage. They’re removing the windows of recklessness provided by Bone Plating in favor of promoting constant smart play.
DaCurtis1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-31T11:02:36.761+0000)
I don't think you actually read all of the changes. :)
Bone plating is being effectively removed. We are only get 5 armor or 6 mr to compensate. No one is going to go double defensive stats because the gold value is absolute crap. You short yourself over 200g by going double defensive over double offensive not including slower clear speeds, slower tower taking, harder to cs ect.
Best case scenario we are trading 45 reduced damage for less than 4%-5% reduced damage from a single type.... at level 1. Which would require a level 1 health of 900 to be equivalent.
At level 18 with typical melee base armor and + Tabi's it would take 5450 health for the new +5 armor to beat out what boneplating already gives us. AND that would only be effective vs physical damage.
In other words... damage is going up again vs anything that ain't an adc/assassin/burst mage. Also armor scales in effectiveness with HP which is something carry roles generally don't have a lot of to begin with.
For example the +5 armor is going to give a champion like Caitlyn an effective 60 hp at level 18. Which is basically nothing. Just over 1/2 of 1 tick of ignite. Which by the way is going to ignore that bonus armor anyway. :)
A person can make a good argument for the scaling hp being mandatory though.... but it adds less hp than we already get. :)
You say no one is going to go -
But, you do realise a LOT of champions before runes reforged took Quints for defense right? Heck, I'm going to do the same as a top laner, so to say no one is going to go double defense, well that's not true at all.
So effectively, a tank could have 10 armor or 12 MR level 1. That's a huge fucking deal, would you not agree it makes someone tankier?
Regardless of your thoughts on boneplating, there are other survivability runes, too much to add to the equation tbh. Whichever way you shake it, people have the option to be tankier - enter in tanks.
Sidenote: BonePlating was unhealthy as fuck and shouldn't be in any meta.
GigglesO7 votesBut, you do realise a LOT of champions before runes reforged took
The old rune system was almost perfect gold to gold ratios, you could get 5ap out of a Quint or 4 MR big surprise they had almost same gold value.
Meanwhile I did a giant excel sheet on Morde VS xearth trading 1 hit for 1 hit. If I take 12 MR And he takes 20 ap I die On the same hit as 6MR but a hit after no stat bonuses.
We need equivalent base stat choices so we can negate early aggression.
Pika Fox1 votesAnd that was proven to be a stupid comparison; xerath would never let morde into melee range, and morde wouldnt be dumb enough to go offensive runes, as hed die before getting into melee range.
GigglesO2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-31T23:08:09.595+0000)
And that was proven to be a stupid comparison; xerath would never let morde into melee range, and morde wouldnt be dumb enough to go offensive runes, as hed die before getting into melee range.
??? I always go full offensive with morde. and mordes E isn't exactly melee... I pulled morde because I know exactly what he can and can't do.
Last year I was the #1 most played morde world, and I'm in diamond.. I do know what I'm talking about with this.
Pika Fox1 votesIf you think xerath would ever let a morde walk into range to do literally anything, no you dont.
GigglesO1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=0001000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T03:28:32.804+0000)
If you think xerath would ever let a morde walk into range to do literally anything, no you dont.
Doesn’t matter it was a hit for hit scenario. Honestly it’s part of the reason I think that starting stats need to be more equal in gold value. Why should I be forced to lose just because offense stats are better, and I don’t have actual access to defense stats...
Pika Fox2 votesNot really, as it assumes stats are equal in usefulness by default on varying champions and all matchups. Reality is, even if less gold efficient, the defensive runes are almost always better. Mitigating lane harass is extremely important. Unless youre jungling or relying on stats for CS, not dying is more important on most champs than getting a kill.
Also; defensive stats always work. You cant miss armor or mr blocking damage. Offensive stats, however, can be missed, as most ranged abilities are skillshots, and auto attacks dont do much damage early.
GigglesO1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvfktET9,comment-id=000100000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T04:53:18.283+0000)
Not really, as it assumes stats are equal in usefulness by default on varying champions and all matchups. Reality is, even if less gold efficient, the defensive runes are almost always better. Mitigating lane harass is extremely important. Unless youre jungling or relying on stats for CS, not dying is more important on most champs than getting a kill.
Also; defensive stats always work. You cant miss armor or mr blocking damage. Offensive stats, however, can be missed, as most ranged abilities are skillshots, and auto attacks dont do much damage early.
Anyone that truly believes that wants high kill pressure early. I don’t buy that one bit. Hitting skill shots early is easier because Champions tend to have less mobility early game. Armor and MR also only have value when you are getting damaged... so the 90% of the time you argue that I’m “not fighting “ damage still gives me better waveclear and helps me to CS.
The issue here is If I can buy it in game cheaper why would I take the shitty runes just to gimp myself?
Pika Fox2 votesGold value is less important for runes than it is for items. What matters most is what you get out of said runes.
If you get harassed a lot in lane, defensive runes let you stay in lane longer, which means more gold overall.
DaCurtis1 votesLast year, going full offensive runes would be a death sentence. If you took 0 armor and just took health yellows AP blues and AP quints, then I don't believe in your ability to play morde at all.
The Bad Touch1 votesLast year, going full offensive runes would be a death sentence. If you took 0 armor and just took health yellows AP blues and AP quints, then I don't believe in your ability to play morde at all.
I year ago you had the option of taking 9 armor or 4 AD in your seal slots. or 12 arm or 6 AD in your quints.
That is a twice or better the value.
EVEN then people generally prefered 6AD from quints.
At 6 AD vs 5 armor it's not even a contest.
Also a year ago lanes lasted longer than 6-8 minutes because damage was far lower.
Armor was traditionally stronger than AD ONLY when sustain was high. Since that day regen has gone down. Pots have been need nerfed. Mana costs have increased and generally it's just go big or go home.
Just look at worlds this year. 3/4 of the highest win rate champions that were pick/ban status has 70% win rate. It all about who kills who first now.
GigglesO1 votesLast year, going full offensive runes would be a death sentence. If you took 0 armor and just took health yellows AP blues and AP quints, then I don't believe in your ability to play morde at all.
You realize this year we were forced to take full offensive runes right?
Also, I am diamond... so yea, you don't have to trust my word, you can just go look at my rank.
DaCurtis1 votesI bet your spreadsheet didn't take into account Mordekaisers E did it? You know, the thing that literally gives him an artificial health pool that gives defense runes even more life?
But I agree, the discrepancy is pretty large right now, but it doesn't mean the defense runes are completely useless, cause that's what you seem to be concluding.
GigglesO1 votesI bet your spreadsheet didn't take into account Mordekaisers E did it? You know, the thing that literally gives him an artificial health pool that gives defense runes even more life?
But I agree, the discrepancy is pretty large right now, but it doesn't mean the defense runes are completely useless, cause that's what you seem to be concluding.
I did, which morde wins hit for hit if he gets the perfect shield scenario. There is too much more than hit to hit to account for. However two champions that are say more similar like lux and xearth, the one that takes the 10 ap over 6MR always wins.
The Bad Touch1 votesYou say no one is going to go -
- Adaptive
- Defensive
- Defensive
But, you do realise a LOT of champions before runes reforged took Quints for defense right? Heck, I'm going to do the same as a top laner, so to say no one is going to go double defense, well that's not true at all.
So effectively, a tank could have 10 armor or 12 MR level 1. That's a huge fucking deal, would you not agree it makes someone tankier?
Regardless of your thoughts on boneplating, there are other survivability runes, too much to add to the equation tbh. Whichever way you shake it, people have the option to be tankier - enter in tanks.
Sidenote: BonePlating was unhealthy as fuck and shouldn't be in any meta.
Nearly all champions did not go defensive quints.
Let's run some math. Sion A goes double defensive. Sion B does double offensive.
Sion A starts with 42 Armor and 74 AD. Sion B starts with 37 Armor and 80 AD.
Sion A has 29.5% reduced damage from physical. Sion B has 27% reduced damage from physical.
The survivability difference is basically null.
If Sion A takes 1000 physical damage over the course of lane after armor Sion A takes 705. Sion B takes 730 That's is less than one proc of level 1 bone plating. 5 Armor is nothing. (Note that it's actually closer than this due to scaling armor per level. Each point of armor is worth less than the last. This is literally best cause scenario.)
However Sion A Can CS easier, trade harder, push harder, and turn on fights better.
All around it's a nerf to defenses for the classes that wanted defenses. Even Akali generally went bone plating and relied on i to get through lane.
Whether you like bone plating or not the issue is people already die way too damn fast. This just makes it worse.
DaCurtis1 votes"Nearly all champions did not go defensive quints."
So no one used the Quintessences of health/scaling health/armor/magic resist/scaling magic resist/scaling armor?
wat
Sion A has 29.5% reduced damage from physical. Sion B has 27% reduced damage from physical.
The survivability difference is basically null.
Also I just want to add here that "basically null" is not "null". There is a diffrence being made and can be utilised in a situation, not in a shoestring example that you're probably envisioning; and although I agree the difference in strength between defense and offense is quite large right now, the values are subject to change, (as they've said they're still looking at the numbers.)
Although even if these aren't tweaked, I'll just give you an example where double defense could be utilised -
Say you're an alistar pre level 6 and you're objective is to engage and take as much heat off the adc as possible through staying alive. But fuck, how do I stay alive longer?..
Looks at viewer
The Bad Touch1 votesSo no one used the Quintessences of health/scaling health/armor/magic resist/scaling magic resist/scaling armor?
wat Sion B has 27% reduced damage from physical.
Also I just want to add here that "basically null" is not "null". There is a diffrence being made and can be utilised in a situation, not in a shoestring example that you're probably envisioning; and although I agree the difference in strength between defense and offense is quite large right now, the values are subject to change, (as they've said they're still looking at the numbers.)
Although even if these aren't tweaked, I'll just give you an example where double defense could be utilised -
Say you're an alistar pre level 6 and you're objective is to engage and take as much heat off the adc as possible through staying alive. But fuck, how do I stay alive longer?..
Looks at viewer
By having 10 extra AP + ignite and killing the guy before he gets an extra auto off saving yourself from taking ~60 extra damage. Compared to the 16 or so having 6 extra armor would have saved you.
Not saying 16 hp will never save you... but I can tell you this much. I can count the number of times I saw anyone live with 16 or less HP this season on my fingers. I'd need a calculator to compute how many times I've seen someone get bursted in under 1.5 seconds.
DaCurtis1 votesYou can have ignite with the armor runes too, but w/e.
Also 16 extra health? Where are you getting that number from? Your ass?
Alistar lvl 3 gets 43.782 effective health per 6 armor. With that extra tankiness, the outcomes are limitless for what he can use that extra time for.
Also btw, my initial post was saying that now everyone will be a little tankier cutting damage, and I was right - with 12 armor Alistar would get 87.564 efective health lvl 3. That's fucking huge.
And of course the counter argument is that the extra ad/as will be more effective against it effectively mitigating it - but like I said before, Alistar isn't supposed to be bursting people, and if you expect ali to be taking 10ap to be bursting people instead of surviving, something has seriously fucked up LoL.
The Bad Touch1 votesYou can have ignite with the armor runes too, but w/e.
Also 16 extra health? Where are you getting that number from? Your ass?
Alistar lvl 3 gets 43.782 effective health per 6 armor. With that extra tankiness, the outcomes are limitless for what he can use that extra time for.
Also btw, my initial post was saying that now everyone will be a little tankier cutting damage, and I was right - with 12 armor Alistar would get 87.564 efective health lvl 3. That's fucking huge.
And of course the counter argument is that the extra ad/as will be more effective against it effectively mitigating it - but like I said before, Alistar isn't supposed to be bursting people, and if you expect ali to be taking 10ap to be bursting people instead of surviving, something has seriously fucked up LoL.
Level 3 Alistar with Relic has 799 hp and 49 armor. Increasing that armor to 54 translates to the difference between 1192 eHealth and 1229 eHealth BUT this is only vs physical. You seem to be ignoring that ignite does 130 true damage and the magic damage that is going to be factored in.
So in reality that's 669 hp for 1043 eHealth and 1074. Figure a pretty standard 50% physical 50% magical mix and the difference is 521.5 and 637.
So yes it's 16 hp. :)
Now if you include the heal summoner an the Alister heal into this the base health value would be 746 for a grand difference of about 2 hp.
Long story short 5 Armor is the illusion of survivability. It's 1/3 of a cloth armor.
Let me put it to you this way. Champion A walks back to lane with a cloth armor. Champion B walks back to lane with 2 long swords. Who wins? Same gold value difference within 10%.
Or if you prefer 2 cloth armors suddenly being "too tanky" for a BF sword.
