There straight up should not be a type of damage in this game that is 100% uncounterable no matter what you do. That's stupid, anti-fun and has absolutely no place in a game branding itself as needing strategy to win. If something has no counter strategy than it should not exist.
Marshbouy43 votes% HP true damage is not inherently bad, but using it too frequently or adding too much of it into a kit is not a good idea. It should exist as an incentive for risky plays or fulfilling specific requirements.
TwitchInMyPants2 votes% HP true damage is not inherently bad, but using it too frequently or adding too much of it into a kit is not a good idea. It should exist as an incentive for risky plays or fulfilling specific requirements.
I agree, Vayne hasn't always been a damage problem. IMO she's most balanced when her W is treated as secondary damage and you max Q or W is upgraded first mainly to fluff it up. When she's maxed Q there has been the issue of her being too bursty and dashy, these are early season styles of Vayne. But the majority of her damage was loaded into physical damage and W was an extra that kept her relevant vs tanky characters.
The 3 hit is ok but it shouldn't be tied to a 2 hit condition (COUGHPHANTOMHITCOUGH) and it shouldn't be the most rewarding part of her kit. For some reason a lot of the time when Riot has buffed Vayne, its been her W. When historically she's needed nerfed on her W a little and mostly on Q and R damage in the early seasons.
The recent R changes are about the only thing that's new but that just limits counterplay from auto attack champions, she's still vulnerable to long range and burst. I think item changes and/or rebalancing her kit would make her less of an issue.
DeusVult5 votesif vayne W only dealt true damage during her ult, I would probably be fine with it.
but since it doesnt, and it always deals true damage, and all vayne has to do is hit you 3 times ( 
makes it 2 lul) then fighting vayne is never fun
combine it with her kit and how painfully hard she counters melee champs (Q reposition, Q+R stealth on low CD, E self peel + possible stun on a lowish CD, passive means that once they try to disengage that you get to chase for free) and you can see why a large portion of the playerbase of League hates vayne
ModAcademy Kayn40 votesThe counter strategy, get this, isn't to build against it. It's to play against it. Fiora without her ult is the easiest example, you just need to actively keep your weakest side away from her. Even when she Ults, you can deny her a single vital just by standing in a wall. Vayne's a little trickier, because her play around isn't in 1v1s, especially since both Fiora and Vayne are duelists. Her play around is in teamfights, where you need to get her to switch targets, or where you can abuse her short range to lock her down.
The main thing Rageblade does, which is the problem, is that it lowers the time it takes for Vayne to proc her things. This gives her a better late game, but it's because she has less of a window to force her to switch targets before she gets that damage. I think that's where the problem lays, that Vayne has lost some of the 'play around' she should have because of RageBlade.
Winner Bot32 votesYour idea about counter-playing instead of counter-building is smart, but wrong.
Counter-plays refer situation-specific acts. For example, the way to counter Nasus is to deny him from stacking. This is a strategy that is very exclusive to playing against Nasus. Another example, the way to counter Renekton is not to go in when his fury bar is red because it gives him a huge boost in trading power. This is also very specific to playing against Renekton.
Now, back to your case of Fiora. Suppose Fiora's vitals are changed to dealing bonus physical damage instead of max HP % damage. Does that change the way you play against her? No, you still have to prevent her from hitting your vitals.
Therefore your argument is wrong in a sense that it has nothing to deal with Fiora having max HP % damage. It a champion design issue. Playing against a champion's strength universally applies to any matchup, and has NOTHING to deal with max HP % damage.
Marshbouy31 votesBut the difference between fiora doing physical/true damage is this.
A tank could just stack like 500 armor and facetank fiora ultimate without a problem. No counterplay would be required whatsoever. The presence of true damage prevents this.
kingDeDeDarius7 votesA tank that does that will: A: have less bonus hp B: have less bonus me C: not be able to build much of anything offensively D: still be remarkably susceptible to percent armor pen Also, fiora should be a mid-late game champ so I see no issue with her having to build items to become a tank Slayer. Besides, you act like there wouldn't be compensation for her loss of percent true damage other than bonus physical damage. She could easily be given better stats to make her more well rounded, or give her a percent armor pen ability
Z3Sleeper16 votesAnd that’s why Conqueror, BC and Last Whisper exist.
Cuz unless you build to tank shred, a tank is supposed to tank your damage. It’s why they’re called tanks.
LTK KoRo3 votesCuz unless you build to tank shred, a tank is supposed to tank your damage. It’s why they’re called tanks.
unless your champion got designed as a tank shredder, then you don't need to build tank shred items, or at least not as many.
i hope you guys know that different champions have different strengths right, even the most bland class called adcs have different champions with different niches
Z3Sleeper4 votesBut Fiora's % max health true damage is hardly a niche. It's just kinda there.
Like, she's only a tank shredder because she has % max health true damage. If it was just % max health damage, she wouldn't be a tank shredder unless she built to be.
You could slap % max health true damage on literally any champion and say "there's your tank shredder, it's intended".
LTK KoRo14 votesFiora, as a champion got designed to be a grand duelist who basically should win duels vs anybody after getting some items, but her weakness is basically being truly useless in teamfights. I won't argue if design like that is good or not, but that is point of her.
Fiora got her true %hp damage not because devs thought "lets just put it here and see how it works lul". It's here so she could melt tanks and squishies at similar rate, without being too skewed for any of them. Let's imagine that Fiora gets on vitals:
and
, but as a melee squishy bruiser she can't afford to buy both of theseSo, the point is that Fiora %max hp true damage exists not because devs are monkeys, it exists so her dueling potential is similar against every kind of opponent, which is 101 of her intended design. Im not saying that im fan of %max hp true damage, but any other option would either require BIG overbuffing in order to fulfill her fantasy, or she would be champion with much more weaknesses than strengths.
The Anivia OTP1 votesTruly useless in teamfights right ? (stare at fiora's R)
Sir Saltarin4 votesYes.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesYes, because in a teamfight there's no way in hell she should be getting her R off fully.
And even compared to other champions that aren't that great in teamfights, Fiora brings very little to the table in a teamfight. She's a relatively squishy DPS melee who doesn't have real burst of any kind and has no backline access. All she has to offer is a potential heal from ult that isn't even necessarily going to happen and a potential stun from her W. A juggernaut can serve amazingly as an anti-diver/anti-assassin, and can function as a frontline. An assassin can remove high-priority targets from the field. Most other divers and skirmishers have reliable CC or backline access, or at least reliable team-wide utility.
Fiora can win a 1v1 against basically anyone, but having nothing reliable to contribute in a teamfight means she's pretty useless in one.
Iron Rubric3 votesBut the difference between fiora doing physical/true damage is this.
A tank could just stack like 500 armor and facetank fiora ultimate without a problem. No counterplay would be required whatsoever. The presence of true damage prevents this.
The amount of gold needed VS pen items in the game
xDogMeatx5 votesi think its kill threat thats the issue while said champ is either going 1000 miles an hour and/or drain tanking a whole team. i think thats a issue also.
Paroe6 votes[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA4TR7xv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-27T15:22:34.556+0000)
The counter strategy, get this, isn't to build against it. It's to play against it. Fiora without her ult is the easiest example, you just need to actively keep your weakest side away from her. Even when she Ults, you can deny her a single vital just by standing in a wall. Vayne's a little trickier, because her play around isn't in 1v1s, especially since both Fiora and Vayne are duelists. Her play around is in teamfights, where you need to get her to switch targets, or where you can abuse her short range to lock her down.
The main thing Rageblade does, which is the problem, is that it lowers the time it takes for Vayne to proc her things. This gives her a better late game, but it's because she has less of a window to force her to switch targets before she gets that damage. I think that's where the problem lays, that Vayne has lost some of the 'play around' she should have because of RageBlade.
You... cant outplay an auto attack, sir. Unless its kalista youre talking about and you are or are with an ivern.
The problem with %HP damage in general is the base damage attached to it is always strong enough to be an ability in its own right. It it were just %HP damage it would be fine, but its high %HP true damage with a 1.0 (or in vaynes case 2.25) AD ratio attached to it thats the major issue.
ModWulf Helhammer4 votesHe told you how to counter it in Vayne's case.
She's not getting HP true damage with every auto attack, but with every 3. That means to counter it you have to stop her from being able to proc it. This comes in multiple forms, from either keeping her from being able to hit you, or forcing her to keep switching targets to survive.
kingDeDeDarius15 votesTelling people to just stop her from autoing three times (2 with stupid rageblade) is so wrong. It's like saying "just cc them" (skill shots are hard to land on vayne and most cc is skill shots) or "just run" (and almost nobody can "just run" away from a vayne), or "just kill her" (not original, unique, or intuitive counterplay because, technically, it applies to ALL champs)
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesTell me: what's the best way to counterplay a Darius? What's his main weakness?
Tahminatrix 9 votesBad teammates.
lol I had to say it.
Late game darius doesn't like quick fights / being bursted down since his tankiness comes from longer fights and landing his q repeatedly, although its harder to burst him and might be costly, bursting him is definitely a reliable answer when possible due to his lack of innate mobility and tendency to not buy gargoyle (but that's just the players)
Vayne on the other hand has spammable dashes and movement speed towards enemies, usually making it a guessing game as to where she is going to dash and you cant trade with her then get out before she gets her third(or second with rageblade) auto because she will have more movement speed when chasing you.
Vayne is also "weak" against burst but instead of having large amounts of innate tankiness (which she can buy gargoyle for since it doesn't reduce her true damage) she is also very unreliable to hit and is able to determine how a groupfight goes as long as her team doesn't get immediately wiped.
FlameHalbrdOkido1 votesThis pretty much hits the nail on the head, there really isn't much of a viable strategy to counter Vayne's %hp true bonus damage. For a ranged champion with a dash and MS boost with no important skill shot to land...3 basic attacks isn't enough of a gating mechanic for the power her it provides, especially during her Q when her Q has even LESS gating. You can't build against it and you can't outplay, if Vayne wants 3 AA's on you what are u supposed to do? She's got an answer for most retaliation with her dash+Knock back. Oh and it doesn't have any type of CD either.
At least Fioras passive has a small internal CD, and it can be played around and outplayed. But Vayne? That just isn't the case, she's supposed to play like some sort of monster hunter, but that's not how she plays at all, she plays like an assassin, but she isn't limited to squishies. Its not very fun and less so when ur a tank and by urself because u have NO options.
It would be nice if they updated her so she took more skill, but that %HP true dmg needs some gating.
Tahminatrix 1 votesThey should just give her more auto attack range and/or stop her W from being specialized against tanks....riot has been compensating the fk out of her to make her work and force her into the meta despite a lack of the champions who she hard counters.
So yes, max hp % true damage needs severe nerfs or even removal then buff some flat damage on her w or rework it
FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA4TR7xv,comment-id=00060002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T16:45:25.642+0000)
They should just give her more auto attack range and/or stop her W from being specialized against tanks....riot has been compensating the fk out of her to make her work and force her into the meta despite a lack of the champions who she hard counters.
So yes, max hp % true damage needs severe nerfs or even removal then buff some flat damage on her w or rework it
Giving her more range would seriously mess with her balance given her dash and knock back, she'd b more annoying than Trist with her slipperiness. I'm fine with her W having its specialty against tanks because it fits her theme as a monster hunter however it needs to gated more heavily than just 3 AA on a champ that's encouraged to build AS, like the other instances of %HP true dmg, and she needs to lose the aspects of her kit that either allows her to play like an assassin or allows her to kill squishies as easily as tanks
They can do stuff like gate the true dmg, or %HP dmg behind a CD, her ult, or other mechanics, such as her position around the target like Fiora.
Perhaps every 3 AA does bonus dmg, and then that quandrant/third of that side of the champ goes on CD so Ws bonus dmg can only be applied from a different side.
Or they can use another mechanic that forces more engagement from Vayne on a single target, like every 3 AA knocks a bit of the target off in a random direction around the target (maybe in one of the 3 directions) if vayne collects the part she strengthens her bonus on her target for the next AA.
Tahminatrix 2 votesI don't think you understand what I was saying. Your very first sentence clearly shows that you have no idea what Im talking about.
Im still gonna go on about this, what were you thinking that I meant? Seriously....I want her attack range increased so we can take crutches out of her kit like her tumble and knockback, but you say her tumble and knockback would still be a problem?!?!?! THATS WHY WE ARE NERFING IT, THEY ARE CRUTCHES TO MAKE HER WORK AS A LOW RANGE ADC.
Her low attack range and being specialized against tanks are the reason why she is like this. Riot even buffed her to the point where you literally cannot say she is specialized against tanks anymore, she functions perfectly well without tanks existing, specialization requires being weaker against something else in order to have extra power against something.
Ofcourse taking either of those away will mess with her balance, because riot gave her so many crutches in order to make her work with those drawbacks.
Her being specialized against tanks means riot had no choice but to buff the ever loving crap out of her in order to artificially FORCE her into the current meta despite a serious lack of tanks.
Her short range means she has to have all of that mobility + knockback in order to even be functional as an ad carry.
You take away those weaknesses and then take away all of the crutches that riot gave her.
Right now , vayne has disability insurance, a seeing eye dog, a crutch, a walking stick, a mobility scooter, hearing aids, black glasses, food stamps, and life support. ALL TO MAKE HER VIABLE.
ZackTheWaffleMan9 voteskite him
Paroe4 votes[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA4TR7xv,comment-id=000600020000,timestamp=2019-03-27T16:29:09.196+0000)
He told you how to counter it in Vayne's case.
She's not getting HP true damage with every auto attack, but with every 3. That means to counter it you have to stop her from being able to proc it. This comes in multiple forms, from either keeping her from being able to hit you, or forcing her to keep switching targets to survive.
Right. Just stop the 450MS+ 550 range marksman from basic attacking you once into a Q for a double proc since her Q is an auto attack reset that applies silver bolts or even just not being in basic attack range for 2 seconds because vayne gets 1.7ASP with just greaves and a zeal item. If vayne were 325 base MS with no MS on her passive and a non-cancelable animation on her E you would completely have a point. Vayne should be like kog'maw; super damage, weak to all ins, low mobility.
But youre telling us to just not get hit by a champion who borders hyper mobile? That should NEVER be the counter play to targeted damage unless theres an equally powerful passive counter like dodge chance. What youre saying is no different than telling us the counterplay to zed is to just not get ulted, or that the counterplay to jhin is to just walk away, or that the counterplay to Irelia is to just not get hit by her Q.
FakersDumbCousin1 votesVayne has extremely low AA range, if she is walking up to auto you in a team fight why is your team not engaging on her? Her and Kog maw are both hyper carries of different forms; Kog being a safe long range artillery carry and Vayne being a close combat duelist carry. All it really comes down to is people not being able to postion in team fights/know when to group (ADC's love farming side lanes alone with a zed on the enemy team). My point is unless you miss position yourself or get hard cc'd Vayne should never be getting "free" damage off
Paroe3 votesVayne has extremely low AA range, if she is walking up to auto you in a team fight why is your team not engaging on her? Her and Kog maw are both hyper carries of different forms; Kog being a safe long range artillery carry and Vayne being a close combat duelist carry. All it really comes down to is people not being able to postion in team fights/know when to group (ADC's love farming side lanes alone with a zed on the enemy team). My point is unless you miss position yourself or get hard cc'd Vayne should never be getting "free" damage off
550 is not "extremely low". Its average. Anything below 500 is low. 375 is extremely low. 225 is special melee. 175 is extended melee. 150 is melee.
The thing about vayne is that you cannot out position her. Between her Q, invisibility, AD steroids, CC, and movement speed vayne will NEVER be in a situation where you can just position to safety unless you just went over a wall and vayne cant follow... Even then, depending on what wall and her vision she still might catch you.
aggron8820 votesI agree, tank shredding is fine in some champs but vayne gives 0 counterplay, is totally abusive.
9437214811 votesI agree, tank shredding is fine in some champs but vayne gives 0 counterplay, is totally abusive.
Vayne, Fiora, whoever else they decide to give it to. It shouldn't exist. True damage is already a horrible concept, %HP true damage is a crime against gaming.
Marshbouy8 votesthis is one of the funniest comments I've ever read on the boards
The thigh guy18 votesAgreed. But people screech “tank meta tank meta” if at any point tanks are playable, so pretty sure it’s just here to stay forever.
Salvor Hardın17 votesVerf Nayne
Critmaster Garen15 votesit has its place when there is mechanical and/or strategic counterplay to it, even when there is no counteritemization to the damage type itself.
vital hits have the potential to be entirely denied by her opponent if he plays the fight well. meaning not only the possibility to hug walls, but also juking out her q to deny her hits on those vitals.
max health % true damage is only 10% over a full lvl 16 spin. you can easily kite out of that on almost every champion and fight him during the cooldown window on the ability. hes also heavily restricted in which target he can apply the damage to, as it is only one specific target on the enemy team.
is a piece of shit, and there is no counterplay it. if the ability was outplayable and/or heavily restricted like in the other cases and alter her gameplay in some shape or form, then it would be fine. as it stands, her w has no justification to even be in her kit. its just tacked on power onto her basic attacks and reliable power where other champions have conditional power.
FakersDumbCousin2 votesI cant help but laugh that a Garen main would happen to forget that your ult does true damage to the Villain as well which is non dodge able or flashable once the animation starts. Or how you are so "kiteable" with your 60% tenacity and damage reduction buff(drops to 30 after intital .75 seconds), topped with a Q that breaks slows and increases your speed silences btw and is an auto attack so again applies true damage.
And Vayne is heavily restricted, she has no HP with very very low range, and remember that she is a duelist so dont try to fight her 1v1 fight her with your team like League is a team based game.
Critmaster Garen2 votesOr how you are so "kiteable"
yes.
and i didnt forget. even if we ignored that the ult scales with % missing health and not with % max health, and creates some counterplay this way by only dealing notable damage against enemies already at low health, then its still restricted in that garen only has the true damage available against a single target on the enemy team and cant willy nilly chose his target and still deal the same damage like vayne can.
remember that she is a duelist
so is fiora. (so is garen for that matter. he doesnt bring anything to teamfights. the only thing he exists for is duelling the villain. but lets put that aside for a second).
fiora, as a duellist, still has mechanical counterplay to her passive.
the champion being a duellist doesnt excuse shitty champion design and lack of counterplay that vayne displays.
Rebonack10 votesTrue damage is useful when you want damage that is effective against hard targets without instantaneously popping soft targets.
%HP damage is used when you want a damage source that scales through the game without being too strong early or too weak late.
True %hp damage then is useful when you want a damage source that's target agnostic. It doesn't matter who you're hitting or what point in the game it is, it will always be equally useful.
True %HP damage then should be used on champs with short to medium range who have relatively low target selection since they often can't pick who they are dueling.
boricCentaur16 votesUmmm I don't think you know what strategy is if you don't think %hp true damage should be in the game. If the enemy team has a fiora on it picking a tank will be less effective, if the enemy has a lot of tanks picking vayne as a adc will be effective, and if you pick a vayne the enemy can pick cait so enemy will have the better team fight but your adc can kill the tanks faster, Those are examples of strategy there are gives and takes. Don't lie and say there is no strategy when there is a lot.
Also you can build against it both 
,
are tank items that counter it and if your not a tank then it is basically a wasted stat on you.
kingDeDeDarius8 votesFalse. The problem is vayne is also super strong against SQUISHIES
boricCentaur13 votesIs vayne strong vs those squishies because of the true damage NO. Vayne's w will do around300 true damage to them late game so she is basically getting another e worth of damage and not the stun damage but the normal e damage.
Thefrostyviking3 votesProblem is that she also gets crit ontop that juicy true damage, so everything she hits dies.
Others usually have to choose between crit or onhit, vayne gets both and true damage.
boricCentaur11 votesHow does this have anything to do with the true damage from vayne killing squishies? Vayne having good itemization is irrelevant to my post.
Thefrostyviking2 votesThe guy who responded to your first comment stated that your statement about Vayne being mainly effective against tanks was incorrect as vayne is also good against squishies.
You responded with a comment stating that that is not becuase her built in true damage, i commented saying its her itemization that lets her do that.
And the items a champ uses is part of their strengths, like how Ezreal got nerfed by having double tear build removed from the game to have him stop using it.
Now the problem presented is that Vayne and Fiora are too good generally because their kits+itemization makes them effective against everything, highly so quite often unless heavily nerfed, which is made possible by the max health true damage that scales of standard items for their class.
hiyares2 votesUmmm I don't think you know what strategy is if you don't think %hp true damage should be in the game. If the enemy team has a fiora on it picking a tank will be less effective, if the enemy has a lot of tanks picking vayne as a adc will be effective, and if you pick a vayne the enemy can pick cait so enemy will have the better team fight but your adc can kill the tanks faster, Those are examples of strategy there are gives and takes. Don't lie and say there is no strategy when there is a lot.
Also you can build against it both
you know whats funny when vayne hits through your 300 armor with about 2k of your 5k health in true damage in about 2 seconds and then trying to lock her down with her what 1 second dash/invis..............armor isnt as much of a counter to much in the game atm with how true damage is used in some characters rage blade and such adding to the perent damage in different ways.
zlumpy5 votesIt is ok when it is implemented in a certain way. Like a short range small % over time that you can just move away from. Or if it is on an item that results in giving up power in items in order to counter build a problem on an opposing team. The problem is when they saturate the game with too many sources of it or make too many large % hits that are hard to avoid.
It has a place when limited and done within reason. Too bad it went well beyond that point a long time ago.
4th3t0s1 votes
just get rid of this shit already
DorkunedAuras2 votesIt's... not % Hp though?
4th3t0s1 votesIt's still part of the problem of having what should be gimmicks that balance within a champion's kit instead being too widely accessible and causing chaos. You're right though.
DorkunedAuras6 votesEither smite is true damage. Red vs Blue doesn't change that fact.