Possible Veigar Changes?

Meep Man··27 votes·2,600 views

Heres my thoughts on Veigar. He is good, pretty good, but he isn't where he needs to be yet. He stomps noobs, but he gets a noticable bit worse once people learn how to play against him. Thats like every champion except that Veigar is instantly made a lot worse by picking an AD Mid, making him a niche pick. I like Veigar's identity as THE burst mage personally, not the AP Crusher. His W could also use some changes by a little bit. A LITTLE BIT! Here me out.

Base Stats

  • Base Mana Regen. per 5 increased to 9 from 6
  • Mana Regen. per 5 per level decreased to 0.6 from 0.8
  • Base Armor reduced to 20 from 22.55
  • Attack Range reduced to 500 from 525

Base Mana regeneration buff to help his early game mana and a mana regeneration per level nerf to make him not go insane late game. Some slightly stat nerfs in order to put more power into needed buffs.

Ability 1- Baleful Strike

  • Now applies 50% normal spell vamp from 33% spell vamp

This has bothered me. Why does an AoE spell that can only hit two targets apply 33% spell vamp? This should go for every 2 hitting spell.

Ability 2- Dark Matter

  • Lands faster based on distance from Veigar, ranging from a 0.625 second delay to 1.625 second delay
  • Now has a more clear warning indicator, showing the AoE Radius; a purple (or green depending on the skin) circle will shrink towards the center of the indicator to show when the damage will be dealt, this way the opponent can know how fast it will land how fast they need to dodge

When Veigar lost his instant stun, he lost a lot of his ability to deal with Assassins or Fighters that can just instantly hop onto him, namely Zed, Wukong, Kassadin, and the like. Making his W come down quicker based on distance would benefit him a lot. It also comes down slightly slower at maximum range as a slight compensating nerf.

Ability 3- Event Horizon

  • Now reveals the area inside of it and the edges once active

I don't see why not. What is the point of trapping someone when a bush can save them if you don't have a ward and that happens more than you think.

Ultimate- Primordial Blast

  • Removed damage based on 80% of enemy's AP
  • Increased AP Ratio to 125/145/165% from 100%
  • Base Damage increased to 300/400/500 from 250/375/500
  • Range decreased to 600 from 650

As I stated before, Veigar doesn't need a duel identity. Thats part of the reason he was nerfed, because he had super burst and a super long crowd control. Which should he be known for? Veigar should be a burst mage feared by all, not just AP users. And yes, I know a fed Veigar deletes everyone, but what fed Middle Lane Assassin doesn't? I also decreased the range to help make the ability not seem like an instant ADC delete. Something like this would have to be tested however to see how it would go.

EDIT: Small ultimate damage nerfs from the first, namely to Levels 1-2. Increased the delay on W when close to Veigar slightly, decreased the delay at long range slightly.

EDIT: Baleful Strike spell vamp change and base stat nerfs to make the buffs be able to stay where they are. Reduced W close range delay to before.

43 Comments

UPfreely11 votes

veigar might delete the frontline with that ult lol

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

veigar might delete the frontline with that ult lol

Cool, but since when is the frontline the one who you want to kill. You just killed their Tank, but that Vayne back there is still perfectly alive. You may say "Ok, target the Vayne, the Vayne is instantly dead". However, unless the Vayne is extremely out of position, it is very hard for a Veigar to just walk around to the Vayne without retaliation and/or death.

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

See below

Meep Man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-05-26T21:00:09.971+0000)

2200 magic damage at full build.

Assuming you have the crappiest hp frontline in the game, Swain. He has +1900 without any items, if you add a very common item ( this is not even a tank item ) item 3027 that's 650 hp

2550 hp, meaning the glasscannon Swain mid will not die from Veigar R with this change even if he has 0 MR.

I hope he wouldn't. I know Veigar should delete people, but 2550 HP with an ultimate, undodgeable, is a little much. A LITTLE! A quick Q will also kill him and give you 7 AP. Did you factor in AP stacking as well?

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

I assumed Veigar has 1k AP and the target has no magic resist because item 3020 item 3135 (so I'm overestimating Veigar's damage here), total magic damage is 2200.

Swain ( the lowest hp at lvl 18 bruiser in the game ) has a bit over 1900 hp, with his core item he has 2550 hp, so the most squishy front line will not die from a full build Veigar R given he has 1 defensive item.

So no, in general Veigar will **never **kill the frontline with R alone.

Meep Man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-26T21:14:46.938+0000)

I assumed Veigar has 1k AP and the target has no magic resist, total magic damage is 2200.

Swain ( the lowest hp at lvl 18 bruiser in the game ) has a bit over 1900 hp, with his core item he has 2550 hp, so the most squishy front line will not die from a full build Veigar R given he has 1 defensive item.

So no, in general Veigar will **never **kill the frontline with R alone.

Oh, then yes. I agree. He shouldn't be able to do that. Good. If he was able to then cool, that would be fine if he could delete the squishiest frontline since he would be sacrafising his biggest nuke on the frontline who's job is to absorb as much damage and dispense as much crowd control and damage as possible.

YOU BEEN WARNED6 votes

2200 magic damage at full build.

Assuming you have the crappiest hp frontline in the game, Swain. He has +1900 without any items, if you add a very common item ( this is not even a tank item ) item 3027 that's 650 hp

2550 hp, meaning 1 item lvl 18 Swain mid will not die from lvl 18 full build Veigar R with this change even if he has 0 MR.

ErythaeanX4 votes

what they should just do is keep him how he is now but change his e where its like this ranks: 1.75 before it lands(nerf) 2.50(current) 3.35(buff) 4.,20(buff) 5.0(old veigar e)

this way unless they are going to max their e there is a lot of counter play in the early game and they have all the time in the world to build qss/banshe's but at the same time we will eventually get to the veigar that we know and love. just my idea

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

what they should just do is keep him how he is now but change his e where its like this ranks: 1.75 before it lands(nerf) 2.50(current) 3.35(buff) 4.,20(buff) 5.0(old veigar e)

this way unless they are going to max their e there is a lot of counter play in the early game and they have all the time in the world to build qss/banshe's but at the same time we will eventually get to the veigar that we know and love. just my idea

I'm a little confused? Are you asking for a 5 second stun? Because Veigar's E was never a 5 second stun.

ErythaeanX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-05-26T21:27:26.411+0000)

I'm a little confused? Are you asking for a 5 second stun? Because Veigar's E was never a 5 second stun.

the delay before the stun works i thought the numbers would clarify that but my bad

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

the delay before the stun works i thought the numbers would clarify that but my bad

Oh, ok. Got it! Ehhh, I feel like any change regarding the delay would be ignored since Riot seems to be dead serious with having a delay on the E and the current delay isn't horrible but still noticeable. Unfortunately.

Xerees1 votes

{quoted}

what they should just do is keep him how he is now but change his e where its like this ranks: 1.75 before it lands(nerf) 2.50(current) 3.35(buff) 4.,20(buff) 5.0(old veigar e)

this way unless they are going to max their e there is a lot of counter play in the early game and they have all the time in the world to build qss/banshe's but at the same time we will eventually get to the veigar that we know and love. just my idea

This is by far the best Suggestion. This makes him a proper late game in line with his Q farming. Assuming .35 is a buff, he would actually be useful to the team after Level 7 to 8. Forcing people to play him as a Mid champ rather than face rolling supporting.

Xerees2 votes

{quoted}

what they should just do is keep him how he is now but change his e where its like this ranks: 1.75 before it lands(nerf) 2.50(current) 3.35(buff) 4.,20(buff) 5.0(old veigar e)

this way unless they are going to max their e there is a lot of counter play in the early game and they have all the time in the world to build qss/banshe's but at the same time we will eventually get to the veigar that we know and love. just my idea

This is by far the best suggestion. The reason why Veigar got a nerf was because he was played as a support in asia who would complete destroy the opponent's early game adc. By having these changes Veigar would become a mid-late game champ in line with his Q farming.

Pi32 votes

Well.. 170% of AP is lots.. Imagine a Veigar with nearly 2.5k AP. Which, is not rare anymore considering you are playing against people that doesn't know Veigar. (Let's be honnest here, not many people play Veigar anymore. So it's normal for more recent players to not know he can stack.) But I can see how this buff would make him a played champion. I already played Veigar quite frequently before. And THAT buff, would make him way more interesting.

YOU BEEN WARNED3 votes

I don't want to see a 2.5k AP Veigar, I want to see a 1.5k AP Veigar who is not steamrolling the game.

I don't think reaching 2k is possible even if you're a challenger smurfing in bronze.

qetzel1 votes

The W buff will not happen for readability purposes. If you don't know the speed of an incoming skillshot, how will you be able to dodge it? It is a shame, because otherwise that would be the best suggestion you made.

Meep Man3 votes

{quoted}

The W buff will not happen for readability purposes. If you don't know the speed of an incoming skillshot, how will you be able to dodge it? It is a shame, because otherwise that would be the best suggestion you made.

Thats an easy fix. It could now show the AoE like many other warning indicators and have a second circle close into the circle, the damage being dealt when the second circle reaches the center of the AoE.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Soraka

qetzel1 votes

Alright then.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

He'll probably be OP with all of them, namely the W & R will make him a generalist that can beat anything with a moderately safe laning phase. I like your idea a lot, but I think it's his AP gain per Q that needs adjustments instead of the R. It's not as noticible as people often think, a super fed/stacked Veigar will still only kill 1 person and die.

I'd love if Q gets more range in exchange for 1 more sec CD overall as the AP stacking itself isn't that important to Veigar.

Meep Man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-26T20:51:08.395+0000)

He'll probably be OP with all of them, namely the W & R will make him a generalist that can beat anything with a moderately safe laning phase. I like your idea a lot, but I think it's his AP gain per Q that needs adjustments instead of the R. It's not as noticible as people often think, a super fed/stacked Veigar will still only kill 1 person and die.

I'd love if Q gets more range in exchange for 1 more sec CD overall as the AP stacking itself isn't that important to Veigar.

Interesting. However, I find that AP stacking (Leading to his Burst Mage Identity) is the main identity that he should be the only one to do and therefore his kit should revolve around it. I will adjust properly. Thank you for your input. I think that if the Q got any noticeable extra range then he would really destroy anyone that entered his lane without much counterplay besides "DODGE ALL THE Qs!" He become a worse Spear Nidalee, except with a 2 target instead of 1 target spear. I also kind of like the idea of Veigar being a TINY bit of a generalist. He is generally seen by most as a simple, burst Mage with a unique AP stacking concept, so thats what I tried to focus this around. I find that his Q stacking is overall fine (on average getting 100 or so extra AP per game exclduing Rabadon's).

Trídent1 votes

Good changes, I like the E and R, but the R scaling should be toned down a bit Not too sure bout the W +1

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

Good changes, I like the E and R, but the R scaling should be toned down a bit Not too sure bout the W +1

I kind of want to take the Riot approach here and nerf other aspects to keep his burst. For example, increase the mana cost and adjust base stats.

Trídent2 votes

his burst is fine, but his safety.... eheehehehehehehehehheheh

his E used to save my life all the time

Silents4291 votes

Um. Are you suggesting he gets all of these changes or just throwing suggestions out?

Because no way in hell should he get all that.

Crett1 votes

E - Event Horizon FACE ME: Enemies within the cage deal 50% reduced damage to Veigar

How broken would it be

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

FACE ME: Enemies within the cage deal 50% reduced damage to Veigar

How broken would it be

Incredibly. Veigar would win every team fight.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-05-27T00:41:11.484+0000)

Incredibly. Veigar would win every team fight.

And impossible to assassinate unless you catch him completely off guard

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

And impossible to assassinate unless you catch him completely off guard

Yep. The only person who could possibly assassinate him would be Yasuo since his crowd control could CC Veigar long enough for him to not be hit by Veigar.

Crett2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VvBbQZNz,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-27T00:59:17.991+0000)

Yep. The only person who could possibly assassinate him would be Yasuo since his crowd control could CC Veigar long enough for him to not be hit by Veigar.

if Veigar W'd himself before the tornado hits, yasuo might get gibbed mid ult LOL

The Lexer1 votes

lol that'd be amazing!

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

He'd become poppy, oh my god!

Birdamus Prime1 votes

I honestly don't see the problem with Veigar as is. He (and almost every other "old" mage, like Anivia, and a few others) have always and probably always will have issues with manaless AD bullies like Zed. It's just the sad truth that assassins will always be obnoxious in middle lane.

He is in many respects like Nasus, his niche is farming early and mid game to become an unstoppable god in late game. Playing him like an assassin is kind of a waste of his potential given the ability for Q to hit two people in a team fight, and for W to shred people that happened to have got hit by someone else's CC.

In a pinch, if you've farmed correctly, the vast majority of "Carries" can be deleted with a single R, or worse case, a Q R. And if they got silly, gunblade+R + Q.

If you are playing into an assassin bully in mid, just let their playstyle be their undoing. See them telegraphing a potential all in on you? Drop the rage case ontop of yourself, and a W. There is something satisfying about a Katarina, Talon, or some other gap closing jerk jumping right into their inevitable death.

TotalJerk1 votes

With efficient farming, His stacks become relevant much earlier than Nasus.

Curling Veigar1 votes

I actually really like this.

stevedoesmc1 votes

veigar has pretty ridiculous mana regen late game, he is the garen of mana

kile1471 votes

I think the best buff would be for his Dark Matter ability. It's a powerful move but right now it's basically unusable against champs until you have at least 3 points in your stun because it takes so long to land.

I've thought that another possible way to improve that ability would be to give it a much larger, secondary AoE which would apply like 10% damage and a slow (10%-20% maybe?). That way if they don't dodge the blob by too much they will still be slowed, which would give him an easier way to land his stun. This would give him access to 2 different combos essentially, he could lead with his stun as usual so he can land his dark matter directly and deal full damage, or use his dark matter splash to set up his stun which would be more reliable at the cost of a good chunk of damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

ive posted this in another thread on topic of veigar. gonna leave this here aswell:

what if they increased the area of dark matter and have it deal more damage in the center, and have it drop off to 50% to 60% on the outer edge? (similar how the aoe effect of hydra/tiamat works).

you still have to remember that there is a large ap scaling on the ability, and the delay and area are not much different than brands w for example. its pretty much a standart for a regular long range aoe ability of that size.

but if the damage would fall off, and the spell would deal more in the center (as a reward for locking someone down with a stun to hit him with the center of the spell), the area could be made larger so he can at least get some reliable damage out of it.

it would be a bit harder to walk out of it, but at the same time he wouldnt hit for the full damage if you do move out of the way. so the ability would basically be a bit more reliable without being opressive. just a middleground between getting hit by a crapton of damage from large range, and the ability often being entirely wasted for the veigar.

it would just make hitting a stun with veigar more rewarding at the same time.

The Lexer1 votes

I agree with everything except the ult changes. I think you have to keep the 80% AP just because its such a unique aspect to Veigar.

Meep Man1 votes

Thanks everyone for the comments! Im going to look at all these and adjust accordingly. The main question I have is should the ultimate change stay or let Veigar keep the 80% AP of enemy as damage?

TotalJerk1 votes

Veigar really doesn't need more mana regen, his new Q is already spammy as fuck, right now. I'd just like it if they would shift his power budget around so he isn't just a poke mage that trades a little range for more damage.

Also, it's perfectly acceptable for a champion to have a dual identity. It's better he have a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses as opposed to being a champion that only excels at a single thing but becomes totally useless if the ideal conditions of a single massive weakness is met.

And yes, I know a fed Veigar deletes everyone

Not even a fed Veigar. He stacks AP so hard now that leaving him alone in a lane is as bad as doing it to Nasus. I don't even rush heavy AP items right off the bat, because I still have solo kill potential with Q stacks.

ArkenStorm1 votes

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