so they're nerfing neekos q but not her ult?

Dr Dog··35 votes·14,184 views

seriously, at max rank it has 650 base dmg and a 1.3 ratio, her charge up can be covered by stealth while she flashes in with it, it gives her pretty big shield, massive dmg, an aoe STUN not a root, a stun that last for 1.25 secs and thats at a static 90 sec cd and a whopping 54 sec cd with 40% cdr which you usually get, i dont understand how they couldnt see that when going about nerfing her the cd going up and scaling going down on this spell should 100% be the first move

96 Comments

Vlada Cut19 votes

130% AP RATIO R MAN. 130%.

Dr Dog9 votes

ya. theres no reason for it to be that high unless it was gonna have a decent cd and less cc

Illabethe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-21T22:46:17.339+0000)

ya. theres no reason for it to be that high unless it was gonna have a decent cd and less cc

Or the fact it's one of the harder ults to hit.

If you can't pop Neeko out of a Disguise by the time she reaches your team, YOU DESERVE TO BE ULTED.

Boomerangbro6 votes

{quoted}

Or the fact it's one of the harder ults to hit.

If you can't pop Neeko out of a Disguise by the time she reaches your team, YOU DESERVE TO BE ULTED.

Its fine to be ulted, but not by an AOE 1500 damage stun.

PanmasterAtArms4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-21T22:41:23.025+0000)

130% AP RATIO R MAN. 130%.

TAPTAPTAPTAPTAPTAPTAP

Nicolasbo1432 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vlada Cut,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-21T22:41:23.025+0000)

130% AP RATIO R MAN. 130%.

I just hate the cc immunity she gets and the shield, the dmg is fine sometimes as she puts herself in risky spots. But shes like a walking olaf.

Hibeki5 votes

risky spots? You can literally zhonya

Illabethe8 votes

{quoted}

I just hate the cc immunity she gets and the shield, the dmg is fine sometimes as she puts herself in risky spots. But shes like a walking olaf.

CC immunity? She CC's herself....... You have .75 seconds before she lands in which you can literally kill her. If her AP is high enough to be worried about on her ult,

  1. She isn't building Move speed.
  2. She isn't building strong enough to survive .75 secs vs decent teams.
  3. Zhonya's isn't always up, and can be forced out pre her ult simply by harassing her.
Boomerangbro2 votes

{quoted}

CC immunity? She CC's herself....... You have .75 seconds before she lands in which you can literally kill her. If her AP is high enough to be worried about on her ult,

  1. She isn't building Move speed.
  2. She isn't building strong enough to survive .75 secs vs decent teams.
  3. Zhonya's isn't always up, and can be forced out pre her ult simply by harassing her.

Except for the fact that if you're focusing the person on their team that just gained an impressive shield instead of the adc, then you mightttttt just lose that teamfight anyway.

Illabethe2 votes

{quoted}

Except for the fact that if you're focusing the person on their team that just gained an impressive shield instead of the adc, then you mightttttt just lose that teamfight anyway.

The shield isn't enough to compensate her squishiness or the very fact you literally have to be a dundard to actually let her walk up inside your team (even if she's disguised as a Melee ally; She doesn't have that melee ally's gap closer kit, so she has to use W or Flash or both).

Most Neekos don't even get many successful ults off, unless vs a melee team that dives her.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

The shield isn't enough to compensate her squishiness

oh yes it does especially when during half of the channeling time she will be invisible

so what now, are you going to tell me that you have 1k mastery points on neeko like you did on pyke to hide how he was horribly broken?

go ahead

Nicolasbo1431 votes

{quoted}

CC immunity? She CC's herself....... You have .75 seconds before she lands in which you can literally kill her. If her AP is high enough to be worried about on her ult,

  1. She isn't building Move speed.
  2. She isn't building strong enough to survive .75 secs vs decent teams.
  3. Zhonya's isn't always up, and can be forced out pre her ult simply by harassing her.

she ccs herself, but all stuns. roots, ccs against her are useless, plus she gets the huge shield. I agree that she isn't that strong, Im just saying she shouldn't have so many parts of her ultimate, Its literally a better nunu ultimate. plus in a chaotic team fight, she will not get focused down.

Illabethe1 votes

{quoted}

she ccs herself, but all stuns. roots, ccs against her are useless, plus she gets the huge shield. I agree that she isn't that strong, Im just saying she shouldn't have so many parts of her ultimate, Its literally a better nunu ultimate. plus in a chaotic team fight, she will not get focused down.

If she Roots herself, why do you need to root her? If she can take no other actions while Ulting, why do you need to stun her? You're basically arguing that Sion's ult should be CC-able, Darius's Ult should be CCable..... etc.

Nicolasbo1431 votes

{quoted}

If she Roots herself, why do you need to root her? If she can take no other actions while Ulting, why do you need to stun her? You're basically arguing that Sion's ult should be CC-able, Darius's Ult should be CCable..... etc.

Because stuns, silences, etc. should have an effect on AOE channel lets such as Nunu, it doesn't make sense that she has all these aspects to her kit. It would also introduce more counterplea. Sion's ultimate shouldn't be CC-able, because it fits his playstyle, and UNSTOPPABLE is read above his character. Same with Zac ultimate, Olaf ultimate... etc. (they all have unstoppable effect written above its character). However, neeko defies this, and its kind of confusing to see this mage go up into the air and not have the words unstoppable on it. I think they should make her ultimate unique and not just a 1k dmg wombo combo to everyone.

Illabethe1 votes

{quoted}

Because stuns, silences, etc. should have an effect on AOE channel lets such as Nunu, it doesn't make sense that she has all these aspects to her kit. It would also introduce more counterplea. Sion's ultimate shouldn't be CC-able, because it fits his playstyle, and UNSTOPPABLE is read above his character. Same with Zac ultimate, Olaf ultimate... etc. (they all have unstoppable effect written above its character). However, neeko defies this, and its kind of confusing to see this mage go up into the air and not have the words unstoppable on it. I think they should make her ultimate unique and not just a 1k dmg wombo combo to everyone.

Except it doesn't break her playstyle.....

  1. Nunu has a slow applied to his entire ult to prevent opponent action/escape.

  2. Nunu has scaling DOUBLE that of Neeko.

  3. Nunu actually has reliable mobility in his W.

  4. Nunu's ult is an ALWAYS actionable (just less if he dies/gets interrupted).


There are SEVERAL mages who have ults who finish as long as the mage is still alive: Anivia Bard Brand Janna Kennen Morgana Rammus Rakan . None of these mages will cancel their ults on any condition but their own death, sometimes not even then.

Furthermore, Lux 's ult has an identity of always finishing unless she dies mid cast. That's the same exact rules as Neeko's ult.


There's a reason Neeko is only 49%, and her win rate decreasing as games go beyond 25 minutes...... Her ult/damage is unreliable on a relatively immobile champ.

Cats Are Food14 votes

She's got a nunu ult on a stick that doesn't require charge time. Then it stuns, shields her, and breaks auto-attacks.

Still Virgiñ13 votes

Her Q was the problematic part of her kit. not her easily avoided ult.

Reaper Claws11 votes

So when did an ult that cannot be seen charging up when the champion is in disguise become easily avoidable?

Saianna9 votes

Since the moment someone had to make just any argument to dismiss the idea that her R is kinda OP.

lol

Reaper Claws3 votes

Yeah lol

TheSingularity2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Still Virgiñ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-21T23:41:00.877+0000)

Her Q was the problematic part of her kit. not her easily avoided ult.

For the majority of mid lane mages, it is not easily avoidable. They lack on demand dashes outside of the one off flash, and are slowed during it's so called channel

Still Virgiñ6 votes

The majority of mid lane mages are not going to let you walk into them and land a free ult.

Disguised or not, it doesn't matter. If you allow any champion to walk into your for free in order to land a key ability, then you will die.

Her W is only a 0.5s stealth, so she cannot use it to hide her channel either, Also everyone has a way to easily break her disguise as she walks towards you.

TheSingularity1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Still Virgiñ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-12-22T04:52:29.459+0000)

The majority of mid lane mages are not going to let you walk into them and land a free ult.

Disguised or not, it doesn't matter. If you allow any champion to walk into your for free in order to land a key ability, then you will die.

Her W is only a 0.5s stealth, so she cannot use it to hide her channel either, Also everyone has a way to easily break her disguise as she walks towards you.

She lands E and she will gladly stroll up to u. It's about 1.3 times larger than it actually shows with the projectile and one cannot hide behind minions. Sooner or later one is going to hit you purely based on probability and when it does, she's gonna stroll on up and press R

IP Masquerena4 votes

Then why isn't anyone crying about Lux?

She does the same thing, hit Q, hit E, hit R that procs her passive, auto you to proc passive again, dead, and unlike Neeko, Lux doesn't need to come close to you.

You see, you can't base your argument on "sooner or later it will hit", because that applies to kinda anyone who needs to hit 1 thing to kill you. Veigar traps you in a cage? Sooner or later he will land Q and E then R you to 0 hp, if even needed. Zoe bubble? Sooner or later it will land.

Anything can land "sooner or later", but unlike the examples above, who can harass you from long range with other stuff, Neeko needs to get closer, and oh, guess what, if you have a bit of lane management and knowledge, she kinda can't do much, she comes to harass? You harass back, since you know, you also have abilities, unless you randomly throw them then sit in the middle of the wave, she still has to make a trade off, harass you or push the wave? If you don't give her the chance to do both at once, it's a win-win for you.

And yes, I did play vs Neeko mid, not just vs, but as as well.

Dracocrash2 votes

{quoted}

Then why isn't anyone crying about Lux?

She does the same thing, hit Q, hit E, hit R that procs her passive, auto you to proc passive again, dead, and unlike Neeko, Lux doesn't need to come close to you.

You see, you can't base your argument on "sooner or later it will hit", because that applies to kinda anyone who needs to hit 1 thing to kill you. Veigar traps you in a cage? Sooner or later he will land Q and E then R you to 0 hp, if even needed. Zoe bubble? Sooner or later it will land.

Anything can land "sooner or later", but unlike the examples above, who can harass you from long range with other stuff, Neeko needs to get closer, and oh, guess what, if you have a bit of lane management and knowledge, she kinda can't do much, she comes to harass? You harass back, since you know, you also have abilities, unless you randomly throw them then sit in the middle of the wave, she still has to make a trade off, harass you or push the wave? If you don't give her the chance to do both at once, it's a win-win for you.

And yes, I did play vs Neeko mid, not just vs, but as as well.

because... lux snare can be blocked by standing behind minions, her ult ap ratio is literally HALF. HALF of neekos. 75% vs 130%, doesn't stun. Lux doesn't have gimmicky stealth and transformations.. why compare them?

IP Masquerena4 votes

AP ratio matters mostly when you, you know, have AP, so during the lane, Lux's ult deals way more damage than Neeko, and her whole combo deals way more damage.

Also, Lux's Q is only partially blocked by minions, as it roots 2 people, not just 1, so unless you have 2 or more minions between you two, she won't root, but that also points that no Lux will throw Q when there are so many minions, increasing the chances that she will hit.

Lux's combo at level 6 deals with just a Lost Chapter and Doran's Ring, aka 55 AP, and the 20 from stats equaling 75: Q: 70 + 0.7 AP = 70 + 53.5 = 123.5 E: 150 + 0.6 AP = 150 + 45 = 195 P: 70 + 0.2 AP = 70 + 15 = 85 R: 300 + 0.75 = 300 + 56.25 = 356.25 P: 70 + 0.2 AP = 85

Total - 844.75

That's a "standard combo" without microing her passive, if she does, it's:

Q: 70 + 0.7 AP P: 70 + 0.2 AP E: 150 + 0.6 AP P: 70 + 0.2 AP R: 300 + 0.75 P: 70 + 02 AP

Total - 844.75 + 85 (just add another passive proc) = 929.75

Now Neeko's level 6 combo, same items and runes:

(will go with total damage for Q, since it's assuming all 3 pops hit)

Q: 310 + 0.9 AP = 310 + 67.5 = 377.5 E: 80 + 0.4 AP = 80 + 30 = 110 R: 200 + 1.3 AP = 200 + 97.5 = 297.5

Total - 785. 59.75 lower than Lux's basic combo

And if Neeko also hits her W passive 3rd hit, we add:

W (P): 50 + 0.6 AP = 50 + 45 = 95

Total - 880 - 49.75 lower than Lux's combo when microing her passive, but 35.25 higher than Lux's basic combo

So yea, Lux totally outdamages Neeko in a combo as that 50/60 damage is more than enough to get kills Neeko would not get, and has better harass range. And since Lux's Q passes through 1 minion, if a Lux is good, she can aim in well enough for you to think you're safe and get him still.

Your argument was that "Neeko will hit her E eventually and you will die", mine was that "Well, so can Lux, and you're more dead to her than to Neeko" in the early game. Also, not to mention that even if Neeko hits her E, she still has to come close to use R, Lux doesn't really. Assuming Lux decides to say "screw it" to her 2nd P proc after R, she will deal almost 25 less damage than a Neeko combo without her W (P) and being very safe, while Neeko has to actually go and be in danger.

"But late-game her ult deals more damage"

So what? To get to a 6 item power spike, she needs farm and kills, but it's much harder for her than for Lux, so most of the time, a Neeko vs Lux will have the Lux be ahead of Neeko until that 6 item power spike because she can get more kill early on the enemy laner, their ganks are equally good, even tho Neeko can change the way she looks, a smart enemy should not let her get close regardless, so she still has to use her E from a longer range, but then, there's nothing different about it compared to Lux, who, can also use her Q to make her E an easier hit.

So yea, even tho Neeko has a better ratio on her R, her combo deals less than Lux until late in the game.

Łμst4 votes

Don't mention you can literally reset lux's ult late game with a good R.

IP Masquerena4 votes

When I played for Lux's mastery chest I used Lux's R 3 times in like 15 or so seconds late-game.

My Q rooted 2, ult killed them and almost killed another squishy, I got my ult back and sniped him, then a few seconds later used it again.

I'd like to see Neeko do that.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Don't forget Lux's Q always roots for 2 seconds. At rank one, Neeko E only roots for 0.5 seconds if another champion gets hit, or for 0.7 seconds if you're the last champion. Even if she gets the godly double minion passthrough (which is pretty much her version of looking for a Thresh hook), it will only root the last champion hit for 1.8 seconds. Without that full root duration, you're not landing your full Q, much less getting in range for your R.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Better Example; Zyra E-R.

Sooner or Later that Zyra E is gonna hit you through your minions, and then she's gonna land her R on you from range. Then, if even a mere 3 plant attacks hit you, you've taken more damage than Neeko's entire R. Last I checked, no one said Zyra was OP lately.

You also forgot that Lux R pops her passive for an extra 190+20% AP damage, and is on a much shorter cooldown. Lux doesn't need gimmicky stealth to perform her combo. Neeko does. Someone else beat me to doing the full math on this one, check that out. 75% also isn't literally half of 130%.

Illabethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-22T16:24:08.027+0000)

Better Example; Zyra E-R.

Sooner or Later that Zyra E is gonna hit you through your minions, and then she's gonna land her R on you from range. Then, if even a mere 3 plant attacks hit you, you've taken more damage than Neeko's entire R. Last I checked, no one said Zyra was OP lately.

You also forgot that Lux R pops her passive for an extra 190+20% AP damage, and is on a much shorter cooldown. Lux doesn't need gimmicky stealth to perform her combo. Neeko does. Someone else beat me to doing the full math on this one, check that out.

While the argument exists....... Zyra pro users generally don't Distance R.....

R is Zyra's strongest anti diver kit, and team aggressor, so it usually gets used up close.... as a deterrent/trade maker, than as a long distance risky R where people can walk out of it.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Swain, then. Lands E through minions, roots you then pulls you, proceeds to R while shotgun Q'ing you to death. Both Swain's E and R deal more damage than Neeko's E and R respectively, and his R grants bonus health instead of a shield, which remains even after the duration ends. He also heals while its in effect.

Poske2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Still Virgiñ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VqA9pUTF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-21T23:41:00.877+0000)

Her Q was the problematic part of her kit. not her easily avoided ult.

Picks Neeko R > Flashes. Nukes entire enemy team wins a game

R flash needs to go R shouldnt work with zhonya (nunu r doesnt afterall)

dmg needs to drop

FakeGravity2 votes

nunu dont get to move while channeling, neeko R is more comparable to morgana's R but much stronger most of the time

Still Virgiñ2 votes

Have you ever played neeko?

Zhonyas only works during her ult channel ( 1.25 seconds ) it cannot be used anytime after that.

If zhonyas is used during the channel, then that just means you can avoid her ult even more easily now right?

Again she can only flash during the channel.

It sounds like you guys never played neeko at all.

Sewer Side7 votes

Neeko’s R is literally the only thing she has going for her post lane.

You aren’t going to land a 3 second snare post lane and stand in her Q for all 3 procs.

SpongebobIsLife7 votes

if you've ever played neeko, you'd realize that in most situations, it takes skill and perfect timing to get a good one off. It also forces her, as a mage, to get in the middle of a teamfight. There are several times I get blown up before I even get the chance to finish my ult.

And yes, I know you can build zhonyas, but it slows down your power spikes so much.

CudyDarkyz6 votes

I don't personally understand why people think that a 130%ap scaling is super high i mean Taliyah lvl 1 Q is 210 +135%ap Ahri lvl 1 R is 180 +105%ap if 3 people all get hit its 540 +315%ap Ekko lvl 1 R is 150 +150%ap Evelynn lvl 1 R is 125 +75%ap but if a target is below 30% it becomes 250 +150% Fiddlesticks lvl 1 R is 625 +225%ap Fizz lvl 1 R is weird due to the range thing 150 to 300 and 80%ap to 120%ap Gangplank lvl 1 R 420 +120%ap without any upgrades Heimerdinger lvl 1 R 503 +183%ap rocket ult Karthus lvl 1 R 250 +75%ap a bit low for this but adding it because it will always hit 5 people Kennen lvl 1 R 300 +150%ap Malphite lvl 1 R 200 +100%ap Morgana lvl 1 R 300 +140%ap Neeko lvl 1 R 200 +130%ap Nunu lvl 1 R 625 +250%ap Velkoz lvl 1 R 450 +125%ap Viktor lvl 1 R 490 +305%ap Ziggs lvl 1 R 200 +73%ap middle is 300+ 110%ap Zoe lvl 1 Q 125 +150%ap

Łμst6 votes

Is no one even going to mention that Veigar and Lux have more burst than Neeko does...? Lux literally has more range and has a reset on a kill for her R.. Veigar has infinitely stacking AP and cdr on his W and his ult late game does upwards of 2-3k damage if played correctly... his W can do the same on less than 2 second cd... People need to stop complaining about neeko when her passive LITERALLY does nothing but change her appearance, her W is every third auto she does more damage which on an AP burst mage is pretty useless, the movespeed is something needed though and her R is so weak its a joke. I kill neeko EVERYTIME before she gets her ult off its terrible to watch them have a full 1.25 seconds before they gain their shield and .75 after to deal the damage and stun.

Deathhawk8881 votes

Not even Velkoz or Ekko ults have that crazy of a scaling. The only I can think of that has more is Zoe Q

Rathar Dashing6 votes

Vel'Koz R has much higher base damage, and deals true damage on top of that. Ekko R also has a higher scaling on the damage it deals, and that's not counting the healing component (which is also higher if you've lost at least 40% max health in the last 4 seconds).

Nunu's W has 150%, his R has 250%, Morgana has 140% on her R, Zerath has 219% if you hit all 5 shots (and well over double the base damage), Swain has 170% (+105% for his R2), Heimerdinger RW has 183%, and Veigar has up to 150%.

Marshbouy2 votes

All of the champions you listed have large stipulations attached to the abilities such as a long charge time (that can be interrupted), multiple projectiles that must be hit for optimal damage, or are single target.

Neeko's is AOE and applies all of the damage at once.

Infernape1 votes

Ekko's ult is slightly higher in terms of scaling (150% on Chronobreak vs 130% on Pop Blossom). The base damage is a huge difference. Neeko's rank 2 ult deals slightly less than Ekko's rank 3 ult in terms of base damage (425 vs 450). At rank 3, it's 650 base damage.

Neeko can do 1000 damage before MR is taken into account with just 270 AP at level 16. The scaling and base damage is bonkers for an ability that has that short of a cooldown, is AoE and has hard CC attached to it.

Łμst1 votes

But a veigar and lux can do more from a safer distance without taking so much damage.. Neeko literally has to flash into a team fight to get a good R off and if she gets burst faster than she can burst she will always lose.. Try kassadin, veigar, lux against her and she will probably afk.

Infernape3 votes

Meanwhile Veigar's R is single target, not AoE.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Throughout the years, Riot has always done the following:

Create a problem Nerf something other than the problem Nerf something other than the problem and the problem Congrats triple+ nerf.

Serious note here:

Think about this.

Old Malzahars Ult dealt 550 + 130% AP over 2.5 seconds on one target... And he had to stand still

Neeko's Ult deals 650 + 130% AP AOE Damage.

So technically the max R damage she could reach in a team fight would be 3,250 + 650% AP

[i.e. Baron pit fights]

In addition she can move around before the jump to adjust the AOE.

As well as apply a slow so people can't run away as easily

And if it goes off, they all get stunned.

"Well whats the trade off?"

Well... She gets a shield-

"That doesn't sound like a-"

-That increases with the number of enemies around her.

"..."

Oh and it scales with AP, her primary stat!

Hello?

Rathar Dashing2 votes

The trade-off is that it's incredibly easy to predict and avoid. Malz is point & click suppression that also deals %max HP AoE damage that scales well with AP. Malz will always be useful in a teamfight because he can always make one enemy champion useless, but if Neeko misses her ult she dies very quickly.

taleofsonata1 votes

Neeko is a burst MAGE, how many time do people have to tell you that? Too many times? Even Riot SAID it in her Trailer, in her description and ETC.

TwinkiePro1 votes

{quoted}

Neeko is a burst MAGE, how many time do people have to tell you that? Too many times? Even Riot SAID it in her Trailer, in her description and ETC.

Veigar barely beats that against a single target. And thats when they are missing at least half their hp.

Rathar Dashing2 votes

Veigar also has much better CC on his cage, lower cooldown and higher scaling on his W than her Q, and can't miss his R. He also doesn't need to put himself in danger to do any of these moves, and has an inifinite scaling passive.

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