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I'm actually okay with the upcoming Senna nerfs.

Illabethe··4 votes·2,981 views

HP per level lowered from 85 to 75

Absolution (Passive) Soul drop rate on minions killed lowered from 5.55% to 1.85% Clones no longer drop souls

Piercing Darkness (Q) Bonus AD ratio lowered from 50% to 40%

Last Embrace (W) root duration changed from [1.45/1.65/1.85/2.05/2.25s] to [1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25s]

Dawning Shadow (R) AP ratio damage increased from 40% to 50%

So basically:

  1. Play passive as hell, because your already 1 shottable Senna is going to have up to 170 less HP.

  2. So Basically: Don't adc Senna or you won't get stacks reliably off minions (only champs and large cannons)

  3. I'm not going to throw a tantrum off a 10% drop in AD value; The HP nerf already says play more passive, and this does the same. (Or build AP....)

  4. I Still think W should be reduced to a flat 1.5 seconds, because the 2.25 scaling still promotes what made her strong as an adc.

  5. Won't complain about an AP buff on an AD champ.

I think this is probably enough to put Support Senna to about a 50.8% WIn rate, and Adc Senna to about 51%, but people will still complain, because Nautilus and other champions she is hard CCing with as adc are NOT recieving nerfs.

20 Comments

Hahahahyena4 votes

i think they need to nerf her damage way more since shes still going to do a better job as an enchanter than the actual enchanters. shes still going to deal a shitload of damage while still having high support power and thats riot's problem with these new releases, they dont know that a champion is supposed to have weaknesses somewhere

Illabethe1 votes

She REALLY doesn't do a ton of damage. I don't know how to get that through to you. It's like you think that a support should not have a skill that knocks off 20% HP. News Flash: Sona knocks off 60-70% in a single Q > Auto. Nami's W can knock off 25%, and Bubble can knock off a total 40%. Janna can actually solo a Jhin.

And then there's tons of offensive mages in the support slot who literally 2 skill kill.

Senna underperforms all the mages on damage, and she's on par with the damage I do on Nami, or even slightly lower.

I average 27k Damage a game on Nami. 17-19k is sometimes normal for Senna. And the only thing different about my Nami build than other Nami players: I buy item 3070 >item 3504 >item 3174 >item 3003 , which puts her at 385 AP just there.

Building Lethality on Senna you're lucky to break 20k, unless an opponent is REALLY dumb and just keeps running at you.

Hahahahyena2 votes

a support should not have a skill that knocks off 20% HP

its not JUST 20%, its 16% PLUS healing PLUS gaining extra crit chance PLUS gaining extra ad PLUS gaining extra range

Senna's next attack collects the Mist and deals 1% − 16% (based on level) of target's current health Attack damage bonus physical damage.

thats just from the first paragraph of the passive

ignoring her q which heals her PLUS her ally PLUS damages PLUS puts her passive on enemies, you get where this is going

And then there's tons of offensive mages in the support slot who literally 2 skill kill.

none of which heal PLUS damages PLU- im not gonna go over that again, her kit is just bloated to high hell

she does BOTH damaging AND supporting while everyone else has to choose between the 2

riot REALLY needs to decide between her being supportive or damaging and as im looking at the changes, shes still gonna be a monster in both fields

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Exactly. heck i don't even have a problem with her doing both, but she shouldn't be doing both super well with no trade offs like she is now.

Hahahahyena2 votes

yeah if shes gonna be a jack of all trades then she should be a master of none, but right now, why would anyone pick any other enchanter instead of senna? cause she does everything they do and then some.

heals? shes got it.

damage? shes definitely got it.

cc? yep she can do that.

team utility? she can do that too, you want free invis? have some free invis.

she needs either needs: 1) her damage and utility reduced evenly or 2) have her damage heavily reduced while keeping her current utility OR vise versa

Illabethe1 votes

  1. The 1-16% only occurs if you hit twice. And yeah...... 16% at level 18 is TOTALLY 16% at level 1.....

  2. Her crit at best increases her damage by 30%. You keep ignoring that fact. 200 AD can only crit for at best 260, reduced by armor, Randuin's and Ninja Tabis.

  3. Heal is lower than other healers, on a **15 second **cooldown, and the damage is mediocre too.

  4. She's literally a 50% Win rate support after these changes. Down from a 51% Support. SO OP.

Hahahahyena1 votes
  1. The 1-16% only occurs if you hit twice

her base combo is q auto, so she WILL proc the %damage

  1. Her crit at best increases her damage by 30%. You keep ignoring that fact. 200 AD can only crit for at best 260, reduced by armor, Randuin's and Ninja Tabis.

armor has been garbage for a while and part of her main build is item 3033 so even LESS armor, plus she also builds item 3147 and item 3031 so shes doing EVEN MORE damage.

  1. Heal is lower than other healers, on a 15 second cooldown, and the damage is mediocre too.

wow, a slightly lower heal than other champs designed for healing while getting more damage, range, and utility. what a drawback. damage is definitely not mediocre, see last point.

  1. She's literally a 50% Win rate support after these changes. Down from a 51% Support. SO OP.

cause shes the new champ??? people are still trying her out and shifting her winrate all over the place? besides, champs like Akali Yuumi Pyke are at 41-47% wr and theyre still being changed because of their bloated kits

Illabethe1 votes

  1. If she's in range to Q > Auto, she's no less vulnerable than any other support to be counterpoked. In fact she has one of the highest death rates as Support.

  2. Armor is not garbage and mitigates any lethality she gains from Duskblade or Glaive etc. The only champion on a team that generally fears her Lethality is an adc, and adc scales FULLY with crit. so most trades favor other adcs. Senna's at late game crits are only about 450-500 damage at MOST. Early game at level 10 she hits about 200. Most adcs by that point are hitting over 350-400.

  3. Average ally heal for Senna a game is 4000-7000. Average overall is 16-17k. I can heal for 30k + on Nami or Soraka EVERY GAME.

  4. She's no longer new; her weaknesses are huge, and her learning curve is NOT.

  5. Akali is the second highest skill cap champ in the game. Yuumi is 50%+, and they are simply adjusting her to more of a full support than a damage dealer. It's not a nerf. Pyke is currently underperforming because they went too far on turning him into a 1 skill champion. About the only thing left for him is his ult and the gold that comes with it. Ofc they are going to rework that. They nerfed everything else he hard so far that they gave him literally 70% of his power budget in his ult.

Hahahahyena1 votes
  1. If she's in range to Q > Auto, she's no less vulnerable than any other support to be counterpoked. In fact she has one of the highest death rates as Support.

its easy for her since she gets that added range, plus if you have bush control youll nearly always get a q auto combo off safely, and its easy to get bush control as a support than can deal both damage and healing

  1. Armor is not garbage

its garbage hun, doesnt matter how you try to spin it, riot doesnt like tanks so they nerfed armor to high hell, its garbage.

plus other adcs dont get to have heals along with their trades until adequate lifesteal comes in but at that point the laning phase is over

  1. Average ally heal for Senna a game is 4000-7000. Average overall is 16-17k. I can heal for 30k + on Nami or Soraka EVERY GAME.

nami doesnt get a global shield and damage ult or long range %health damage or a team invis and soraka doesnt deal damage.

  1. She's no longer new

that 19% pickrate says otherwise

  1. Akali is the second highest skill cap champ in the game. Yuumi is 50%+, and they are simply adjusting her to more of a full support than a damage dealer. It's not a nerf. Pyke is currently underperforming because they went too far on turning him into a 1 skill champion. About the only thing left for him is his ult and the gold that comes with it. Ofc they are going to rework that. They nerfed everything else he hard so far that they gave him literally 70% of his power budget in his ult.

and guess what they all have in common, overbloated kits, just like senna

(and the yuumi change is 100% a nerf, they just made her "lulu w the champion" they gutted her niche of popping in and out by giving her w a channel and nerfing her q. the only reason to pick her up is for her e buffs now but then lulu actually has a kit PLUS yuumi e buff)

Illabethe1 votes

  1. 600 Range in lane is nothing vs 1175/1300/900/800/725 range skills. Her Autos do not get "extra range," and unlike other adcs, she can't orb to avoid skill shots.

  2. Armor works the same way as Season 1, exists in greater amounts. The only problem: NO ONE BUILDS IT AND EXPECTS TO LIVE FOREVER IF THEY DO.

Tank Perspective on Armor: "Gee I'd like to take 60-70 shots instead of 15 before I die." Everyone else's perspective on armor: "If I can't kill them in 5 hits, I'm dead to CC."

Reality: Armor is the difference between being 2 shot and being 10-15 shot depending on the item in this game. It's not Immortality, nor should it.

(Try building a Randuin's on an Illaoi sometime and then having a Caitlyn poke her. It'll take 12 shots to kill Illaoi running away).

  1. I do more damage with Nami than Senna EVERY GAME. AND more heals. AND more CC.

And the fact you claim Soraka doesn't do damage just reeks of being a nub. Her Q is one of the most loaded offensive self healers in the GAME. She easily racks up 30k damage a game if she levels Q. It's by CHOICE that Soraka's level E (also damage) and W.

  1. Nautilus is near 20% pick rate. Garen is 14% Ashe 14%. Nami 20% Pick rate has no correlation with champ age.

  2. No. Other than Akali, their kits are pretty simple. Yuumi and Pyke are not high skill. They are Rework corrupted. There's a difference. Pyke was fine before they converted him to full Lethality.

Yuumi Change is a greater heal, heal available more often and her W is almost getting DOUBLED. Mana on hit is being brought back.

.2 Second Channel isn't going to change anything except mid fight swapping, out to shield and go back. She can still change rides.

Hahahahyena1 votes

Her Autos do not get "extra range,"

Senna also gains Range icon 25 bonus range

mmmm

Armor works the same way as Season 1

except now theres way more ways to pen through armor than before, like item 3071 item 3036 item 3147 just to name a few

building full tank is way more expensive and less efficient than just going damage now because riot doesnt like tanks

  1. I do more damage with Nami than Senna EVERY GAME. AND more heals. AND more CC.

"i do this" "i do that" anecdotes dont trump stats, right now people are picking her because she heals AND dps nearly on par WITH her adc and when she goes adc herself she excells at supporting her team WITH her support WHILE ddealing tons of damage. she needs to either have her kit toned down equally or actually nerfing either her support or adc side of her kit because right now shes overwhelming with both.

  1. Nautilus is near 20% pick rate. Garen is 14% Ashe 14%. Nami 20% Pick rate has no correlation with champ age.

nautilis: 13.3% / garen: 8.2% / ashe: 11.1% / nami: 7.5%

senna: 19.3%

mmmmmmmmm

  1. No. Other than Akali, their kits are pretty simple.

MMMMMMMM

Illabethe1 votes
  1. BC existed and was stronger. LDR is weaker than Season 1-4 Last Whisper, and more expensive. Duskblade/Lethality just got a huge nerf of Lethality per item. (only 10-18 now, not 22-28). Furthermore, we got a buff on rune armor/resist, and Mountain Drake now gives Armor/Resist. Randuin's didn't used to have Crit damage reduction. Thornmail used to only be 80 Armor. Dead Man's Plate didn't exist. Righteous Glory was reworked and made stronger.

I'll keep doing more damage on full tank Morgana than AP Morgana. By all means.

  1. I'm a diamond II Nami player. And I do both high damage AND heals. She is not overwhelming with either.

3)Don't look at just Challenger....

Fuhrer Usagi1 votes

You do know that Senna Q is just as long as those range skills and goes through everything? Plus the auto attack range is better on a AA hybrid like senna since she can get attacks off.

And I don't want to sound like an ass but you are a horrible judge of whats wrong or not. You were preaching Senna was fine while abusing her and everyone disagreed. And now riot themselves even admitted she was not fine. Your opinion on senna has already shown to be flawed vs actual stats,alot of players,streamers in challenger tier, and riot themselves.

So I don't think anyone here is going to take your word on whats strong or not about senna.

Illabethe1 votes

Wtf are you even trying to argue by saying

Plus the auto attack range is better on a AA hybrid like senna since she can get attacks off.

Restate your argument.

But no. She has to get to 600 range to stack early game. Which means she's extremely vulnerable. If you attempt to poke with Auto/Q you tend to almost ALWAYS take damage. These are the games where you get 10-13 deaths.

I'm totally "abusing her." With my almighty 43% Win rate as Support I'm totally abusing her. (I'm a Diamond Support player)

Riot hasn't admitted anything. They are focusing nerfs that are small enough to acquiesce commentators like you who think she's the most broken thing in the world at a completely normal performance rate compared to what are generally normal win rates/pick rates (They did say that if there were problems they would try to trim back her playing as an Adc, which is what they are doing, while trying VERY hard not to touch her as a Support, while you and others try to argue she's broken AS A WHOLE.

People should take my word because I'm actually attempting to experience her, whereas 59% of you can't,..... don't even want to imagine playing her/against her after watching some BunnyFuFu video where he went 60 kills with his own team's designated jungler player Vi to set him up for a snowball at level 2, and the other team agreeing not to surrender to be on Youtube.

The more ironic truth is that she's just an average champion as a support, getting banned because people imagine low skill champs having some large delta of improved accomplishment as people master her.

The actual reality is: She has a lot of counters, and the best performances you're going to find with her as a support is generally those who do NOT poke too much, but instead behave passively, and just try to acquire stacks, heal, and ult the occasional out of place teammate who needs a shield.

If you attempt to be aggressive, you will be punished. Period. If you do a lot less, you win a lot more.

This contrasts from playing her top or adc:

Top; there's not many champions who can toe to toe her directly. They have to play like they do vs any adc top: Passive, and wait for your chance to flash in and kill her. Early game, she wins hard when directly facing most tops. However, once the game gets going and she isn't top, most top champs outlevel/outscale her and usually can catch her and delete her (Garen at level 11+ with his new attack speed build can both outrun her, and kill her in 2 seconds of spin).

The only top I've seen beat Senna is a RIven. Riven can just play the game well enough that she can gap close Senna and dodge her W easily. Once she does, RIven just controls the fight.

Adc: Adc Senna is carried by the fact she can have a support. Keep in mind: I've NEVER argued she can't snowball. I've argued she's not "Broken." With a hard CC support, Snowballs are MUCH easier and MUCH sooner, since her W can stack with a support CC and give her plenty of time to snowball. After she starts the snowball, ofc she's going to gain much more stacks than she would have. Ofc she's going hit milestones earlier. Ofc people are going to rage. All I'm saying is Senna getting 53-54% as adc was because a 50% champ was enabled by supports who are also failing to see nerfs. Not because of Solo performance.

Kai Guy3 votes

Riots taking off the training wheels.

Done251 votes

{quoted} 4) I Still think W should be reduced to a flat 1.5 seconds, because the 2.25 scaling still promotes what made her strong as an adc.

It's also what makes her strong as a support. You know, her main role? :P

Illabethe1 votes

She was 51.34% as Support. Not exactly strong. Supports average 52% for good balanced ones. Nami has been over 52% for over 5 years. So has Janna.

Sillae10 votes

{quoted}

She was 51.34% as Support. Not exactly strong. Supports average 52% for good balanced ones. Nami has been over 52% for over 5 years. So has Janna.

yeah but nami and janna don't deal 13% current max health with a second auto from caitlyn's range

Malix Farwin1 votes

Her ADC is much stronger than her support rn and her Support is slightly overtuned so i think these nerfs are fine but if she needs any more i hope they can do it in a way that hurts the ADC but not support(maybe buff healing and nerf damage even further?).

I guess we will just have to see how these current nerfs land.

Illabethe1 votes

The passive nerf alone is huge for ADC.

5.55 means that per 19 minions she KILLS, 1 wisp will drop.

1.85 means 1 per about 90 CS she kills will drop.

In other words, except for Large cannons and poking champions, she couldn't gain stacks. Average games only get 60-80 stacks, and this change reduces adc average stacks to about 40-60, which isn't enough to make her range toxic, or give enough crit to matter. It also reduces her AD.

Q is an overall nerf, but also generally affects adc more, since Support sometimes chooses non AD options like item 3504 item 3174

HP gain is more of an adc nerf, because adc is meant to initiate on a support, while a support generally is supposed to take the adc's queues.

P.S. She's ranked 11-15 as a support out of 28 supports. I wouldn't call that overtuned. Riot doesn't balance around 50%. They accept less than 52% generally as "fine."

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