Riot, if you want ap carry bot to be viable:

Dasdi96·Apr 29, 2018·47 votes·14,868 views

You have to nerf fleet footwork + overhead, fix adc itemization, and rework enchanter supports. Fleet footwork allows crit adcs to have an extremely easy laning phase as they can heal all poke and can get out of all ins with the move speed buff. This combined with overhead allows them to not be able to get pushed out of lane while eventually pushing mages out of lane unless they also take fleet footwork. Second, adc itemization is way cheaper compared to ap itemization. This means an adc with equal farm to an apc will be always ahead in items. Meaning the ap has to win lane to compete, however, this is almost impossible thanks to fleet footwork. Lastly, enchanter supports are so biased towards adcs as their buffs benefit them far more. This causes the adc to get much more powerful while an ap only gets little benefit. I hope to see some changes in 8.10.

63 Comments

FakeGravityApr 29, 201819 votes

my issue is this:

need to deal with tanks? pick an adc they have squishies? crit adc siege? adc theres even ADC options for wave clear, like going shiv or picking sivir the enemy team could be Malphite Rammus Taric Yasuo Teemo and you would still want to pick and ADC

as long as ADCs are so good at so many things mages or other champions cant go botlane riot try so hard to make mordekaiser a bot champion and in the end only ziggs show up without trying for a while

SpongebobIsLifeApr 30, 20183 votes

well they've already confirmed that they are reduciung how much damage they can do squishies while keeping their damage to tanks relatively the same due to changes to ie.

secondly, they have also confirmed that somehow they are going to allow mages to do deal more damage to turrets. Not much detail was shared on how.

This is all directly from Meddler.

DeusVultApr 30, 20181 votes

Its true: Riot wants every class and champ to have a niche, yet for ADCs their niche is simply "damage" Not damage to a specific class like tanks or squishies or turrets or neutral objectives, just Tons of Damage TM.

And since they all have the same niche you never really see ADC pick that aren't meta when that champ isnt strong. Because they all do the same thing with only 1-2 minor distinctions.

CoolKnightSTApr 29, 201812 votes

I honnestly have to agrea on this. Fleet footwork is extreemly abusive during the lane fase but I think the solution would just be increasing it's early cooldown and let is scale back down later on.

underscores222Apr 29, 20184 votes

Remove the heal, or modify it to only grant the heal off attacking champs, and perhaps compensate the move speed some to make up for it. The main issue I have with it is the "fall back and sustain up" pattern that doesn't promote interaction.

DoktorKaiserApr 30, 20184 votes

Or simply remove the heal on minions/monsters and make it champion proc only. And nerf the movement speed boost, champions like Graves abuse this to no end.

MarshbouyApr 29, 20188 votes

Fleet Footwork essentially makes bot lane poke champions useless. Unless you can effectively 100-0 someone or get them low enough that they're forced out of lane, FF allows you to heal back up to a reasonable level in no time at all.

saltranApr 29, 20183 votes

Is Brand useless?

Tahminatrix Apr 29, 201811 votes

There is a difference between poking because that's what youre kit is designed for and poking because you do so much damage and they cant punish you for it because you auto win in trades/all ins

It Hertz When IPApr 30, 20181 votes

Just means the poke mages have to switch from poking the ADC to poking the support.

xelakerApr 29, 20187 votes

fleet is fine lol

chipndip1Apr 29, 201835 votes

I mean we COULD lie like this...but we could also not.

FrostQueensPlaneApr 29, 20187 votes

you really think riot adc meddler and riot adc repetoir is going to get rid of the rune that lets them coast through laning with their negative mechanics lmao

RatpieApr 29, 20185 votes

Or they can just get rid of it and adcs have to die or back just like the rest of the champs.

FlameHalbrdOkidoApr 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Or they can just get rid of it and adcs have to die or back just like the rest of the champs.

Yeah instead of buffing the champ/class in any way it feels like it was designed to get rid of weaknesses

Fleet footwork ISN'T an aggressive play making Keystone...its rate of build up is 2 long and the cap 2 high to be of any use for chasing or dueling sustain

It's not a playstyle enabler/improver as there are no champs specifically designed to need periodic sustain/movespeed in order to work/work better.

It is simply a safeguard against sustained/nonaggresive playstyles...and increases the safety against them. that's it all it does is get rid of a marksmen weakness, and that also makes it pretty useless in late game,

it's good point besides that is for sieging, but if they wanted a sieging Keystone why not market it as one

I do like it on bot lane Azir tho. But again it doesn't help me That much more... just gets rid of a weakness.

Dope SoloApr 29, 20184 votes

There is a difference between what riot says they want to do, and what they actually want to do.

RainfallApr 29, 20184 votes

you will play an apc bot then the enemy will pick nautilus or mundo and you will need 8 full rotations of all your abilities to kill them

KaìjuApr 30, 20184 votes

Honestly I would take a trade of removing the heal from Footwork if the move speed was just a little more. It's called Fleet Footwork, not "Heal me the fuck up." If they want a keystone that heals you, honestly you should just take Grasp as the early damage and heal are enough to get through lane phase but it falls off for ranged champions.

Sp33d Zer0Apr 30, 20184 votes

AP users can also use fleet footwork. Just saying.

NyarlathοtepApr 29, 20183 votes

I hope to see some changes in 8.10.

Just dont. You will only see disappointment.

ColteApr 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Just dont. You will only see disappointment.

why is this person downvoted? it's the truth and people need to wake up from the dream of riot fixing anything..

[sg-ahri-3]

MarothennanApr 30, 20182 votes

Because unless you can show us your crystal globe you can shut the fuck up. I hate this company so much lately and even I don't go ahead and say what will happen without having a clue. I can't see in the future and neither can you.

Ok sure but whyApr 29, 20183 votes

As someone who takes Lethal Tempo, it's REALLY not hard to stay alive in laning phase with their 3% lifesteal Doran's Blade and the passive lifesteal you get from Legend: Bloodline. I dunno why everyone's trading all that raw fighting power just for the sake of a small amount of sustain every 10 seconds.

BLIGHTBRINGERApr 29, 20182 votes

What if the bonus heal gained with Critical Strikes was removed and it simply just scaled with your AD and AP. Maybe increasing the AP ratios on the rune and lowering the AD ratio?

Slice n Dice emApr 30, 20182 votes

Fleet footwork allows crit adcs

who is a non crit adc? If an adc buy 1 non crit item it makes it a non crit adc? Runans has crit, rapid fire has crit. They all build crit and they all do fk tons of dmg. I don't see any adc opting to build wit's end in my games or in pro games.

Zane ZephyrApr 30, 20181 votes

Ezreal KogMaw Kaisa MissFortune Lucian

Lucian and MF usually don't build crit and kaisa doesn't need to build it since she has other build paths

Slice n Dice emApr 30, 20182 votes

kog-kaisa items, didn't have time so just copied a game from reddit european masters, if you doubt check LPL final games for the itemization.

Lucian builds crit too, so does MF. you can say that they could work with different/penetration builds but usually I don't see them picked in my games so can't really say what's more popular for them.

Only EZ doesn't build crit in that list. I guess OP should have just used 'adc's except ezreal'

ColteApr 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slice n Dice em,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VpP2F0Rx,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2018-04-30T03:23:33.191+0000)

kog-kaisa items, didn't have time so just copied a game from reddit european masters, if you doubt check LPL final games for the itemization.

Lucian builds crit too, so does MF. you can say that they could work with different/penetration builds but usually I don't see them picked in my games so can't really say what's more popular for them.

Only EZ doesn't build crit in that list. I guess OP should have just used 'adc's except ezreal'

i really like the penetration items but it's true that we have no reason to go that build considering how easy it is to pop people with crits unless they reduce crit damage from 200% to 150% and reduce crit chance so it isn't possible to achieve 70%-100% crit with ease

SpecterVonBarenApr 30, 20181 votes

Not like Ezreal is even an Attack Damage Carry anyway, he's a "mildly annoy you" carry.

saltranApr 30, 20181 votes

MF does buy crit, full lethality is dead due to the nerfs, you can go full crit or half crit - half leth

Jerry SeinfeIdApr 30, 20182 votes

Just delete fleetfootwork. Why would i ever pick pta over fleet? like i still do because i just hate fleet (or should i say warlords). There's no point in trading with a fleet footwork adc as an adc without it because even if you win the trade you lost it.

botlane became so shit as soon as warlords became meta, then it was gone and fleet was ok cuz it had no crit interaction but got you through a shitty lane. Now it's basically warlords again and bot is just boring.

AquariusGineApr 29, 20181 votes

Janna shields give AP? would it make hybrids broken ?

saltranApr 29, 20189 votes

Laughs in Kai'sa

AquariusGineApr 29, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Laughs in Kai'sa

I regret everything

SturmPioniereApr 29, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I regret everything

Janna shields give.. Adaptive?

FakeGravityApr 30, 20182 votes

now thats an elegant solution, a bit confusing for new players but so are runes anyway, it opens the gates to all other support skills design for ADCs only, like attack speed buffs, maybe giving AP or colddown reduction or mana regen now that they are gutting mana...

RISE Shlack123Apr 30, 20182 votes

Underrated post.

It Hertz When IPApr 30, 20181 votes

Doesn't her evolution require permanent stats, not temporary ones?

saltranApr 30, 20181 votes

I wasn't talking about her upgradse, but since she has AP and AD ratios in her skills, Janna shield would buff her really hard.

It Hertz When IPApr 30, 20181 votes

Ahhhhh. TBH I'd be more worried about Kog'Maw, since now Janna's shield could buff his %HP on-hit directly.

KoKobotoApr 29, 20181 votes

Try playing Veigar bot lane with Fleet Footwork. Pressure is low early but after first back the kill threat should be there.

Also please, PRIORITIZE FARMING WITH Q.

Dasdi96Apr 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Try playing Veigar bot lane with Fleet Footwork. Pressure is low early but after first back the kill threat should be there.

Also please, PRIORITIZE FARMING WITH Q.

I think fleet footwork is the way to go if you want to play apc bot. You need it to match the sustain of the enemy adc. I began taking it on Annie when I play her as carry bot and even sometimes mid in hard matchups.

SaiannaApr 30, 20181 votes

Fleet footwork allows crit adcs to have an extremely easy laning phase as they can heal all poke and can get out of all ins with the move speed buff.

And you think why it was made that way lol...

Riot powercreeps ADCs all the time. They long stopped thinking of diversificating bot lane. If anything they actually want to make sure NOTHING will get in bot lanes way.

TeCoolMageApr 30, 20181 votes

once those are out of the way, mages are going to VERY MUCH be able to bot lane, as mana changes actually heavily benefit them for duo lanes specifically (namely, level dependency is shifted into items and lvl 1 stats). Without them I would've guessed like maybe 1 in 4 games will have one side going mage carry, but if both mana changes and marksmen nerfs go through mages might be more viable bot than mid (lol assassin mid mage bot carry meta incoming)

FurriesAreHotApr 30, 20181 votes

I actually agree with everything said here. Thanks for avoiding the pointless ranting and insulting of players and going straight to the info.

Al HavocApr 30, 20181 votes

am i the only one that thinks fleet doenst heal shit in lane?

Cait MainApr 30, 20181 votes

I despise fleet rn. I wish fleet was like old fleet when it was good mid-late as a replacement for lifesteal which was amazing but now its just a get out of lane free card with a bit of sustain after. I wish they would make it trash early but amazing late or amazing in lane but completely nonexistent late (Preferably only good late).

ThefrostyvikingApr 30, 20181 votes

OP if you want marksmen to stop using fleet then you have to nerf the hells outa poke.

If the marksmen cant heal then poke takes over so hard that any one of them that is even slightly lacking becomes nonviable by default.

We were there in the start of this season.

HelmightApr 30, 20181 votes

You might find this relevant

YuGiHoMay 1, 20181 votes

i think they need to make supports that can also cater to mages as well as ad marksmen. Also more items for supports to buy to enhance the power of their ap lane partner, as it is now all i see is a way to deny an ap champ gold and take advantage of their low early mana pool item 3060 and an item thats only good with atk speed champs item 3504 . item 3109 is the only item supports can buy that benefits marksmen and mages equally and only tank supports would want that.