make frozen heart good again

Big Lincoln·Jun 22, 2017·88 votes·2,606 views

lost armor, lost 5% on its AS debuff

tank update changes (putting more resists into items that already have health too) further devalued FH and despite being in an ADC heavy meta this item is hardly bought?

buff plz

69 Comments

Nanuk PihoqahiakJun 22, 201722 votes

I think it'd be cool (No pun intended), if instead of the enemy losing a flat amount of attack speed, it instead made it so it slowed their attack and movement speed over time for being in proximity to them, up to a cap. I think this has flavor to make it stronger overall.

AmazoXJun 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angus The Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VmQmt6xg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-22T07:55:31.935+0000)

I think it'd be cool (No pun intended), if instead of the enemy losing a flat amount of attack speed, it instead made it so it slowed their attack and movement speed over time for being in proximity to them, up to a cap. I think this has flavor to make it stronger overall.

Wouldn't that just be too OP against Auto attackers?

It depends on how fast it debuffs how much % of Attack Speed I suppose.

Nanuk PihoqahiakJun 22, 201713 votes

I think it'd give it more of a place than it's had. Currently, the aura is negligible for a lot of ADCs and other auto attackers due to resets or ways to get out of range of the people using it. You typically don't get Frozen Heart for the aura, but rather the armor and high amount of cooldown reduction. It's been long overshadowed by Iceborne Gauntlet, and could probably stand to have the aura updated.

AmazoXJun 22, 20171 votes

Fair enough, It sounds strong, I like the idea, But it would need number adjustments so it doesn't become OP.

Naomi CoffeeGoatJun 23, 20173 votes

Pretty sure Riot will just end up reworking the item. Riot is not a fan of auras anymore.

ErockandrollJun 22, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't that just be too OP against Auto attackers?

It depends on how fast it debuffs how much % of Attack Speed I suppose.

I think the MS would be an even bigger issue. It would give a completely new niche as an anti kiting item, since the MS slow would make auto attacking more dangerous. (Is that a Healthy niche?)

Personally, if they wanted to make Frozen Heart a stronger niche item, I'd make it a stronger caster item. Perhaps give it some kind of mana sustain. Another possibility would to add 100 extra mana, and another sapphire crystal the build recipe, that would help caster tanks itemize a little better.

EschetonJun 22, 20174 votes

Yes, lets actually make a tank item thats tanky enough to matter after Black Cleaver debuff that also deals with the free movespeed from aa's they get.

ArakadiaJun 22, 20174 votes

That's sounds like a large nerf. Basically it has to ramp up now.

Glory ln DeathJun 22, 20172 votes

Ramping attack speed reduction seems like a good idea, but the movespeed reduction seems like a bit much, and too generally effective. It should be good against AD champions, and especially good against auto-attack based ones, but have little effect on other champions.

Bronze DemonJun 23, 20172 votes

they have enough protections from items, ranged advantage, + support champion and their items.

ms reduction makes tanks do something rather than just being able to survive 2 seconds more at full build

Chembaron YamadaJun 23, 20172 votes

But it would feel inconsistent in design. You would have an aura ramping up a debuff around you, making your auto attacks weaker every second.

The intuitive counterplay would be: leave the zone of the aura. But if it reduces movement speed as well, it would contradict that built in counterplay, since you will have a harder time getting away every second around that enemy. So what exactly are you supposed to do in that situation? Just accept that your auto attacks become worthless?

Bronze DemonJun 23, 20172 votes

-15% AS and 200 armor do not make

1.8 AS, +50% crit damage, 80% crit chance, 200 AD, 15% lifesteal, 8% current hp dmg, 35% armor pen AAs worthless.

that is the same as saying xin zhao's passive makes armor and defense against AAs worthless.

Chembaron YamadaJun 23, 20171 votes

Don't take the word "worthless" too serious here, please. ^^ I was exaggerating to make a point.

You get an aura which is decreasing the effectiveness of the enemy's auto attacks every second he stays near you. Intuition would tell us that you should leave the zone of the aura to counter that. But when the aura is giving a movement speed debuff as well and it is ramping up, too, that means that the item has a built in mechanic to counter its own counterplay.

From a design point of view, that seems wrong for me.

YaskamasandwichJun 22, 201716 votes

A buff to tank items?! BLASPHEMY! If they wanted to focus on tank items then they would have only focused on then during the tank update! Marksmen items must be the only items to grant god hood! You take your heresy ideas against our Marksmen dieties and get out of here! /end of sarcasm.

Oh you also forgot to mention on top of all those stat needs, the price usually increased.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20176 votes

They're buffing tanks next patch. Nice circlejerk.

OP Garen SupportJun 22, 20172 votes

Poppy

Hammer Shock (Q) enemies max health damage increased from 7% to 8%

Maokai

Base health increased from 540 to 565
Nature's Grasp (R)  
    cooldown lowered from 120/110/100 to 120/100/80
    range increased from 2500 to 3000

Gnar

Boomerang Throw (mini Q) - damage increased from 5/35/65/95/125 to 5/45/85/125/165

Crunch (mega E) range increased from 475 to 600.

Dem tank buffs so op I will go and play them botlane as an ADC.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20176 votes

Why the hell would you play a melee champion bot lane?

Also you forgot the Sunfire and Cinerhulk buffs. That Maokai ult buff is huge and so is the Gnar buff.

OP Garen SupportJun 22, 20172 votes

I was simply making fun of you saying tanks getting buffs meanwhile its nothing. You are right it is a buff but 1 not worth mentioning how insignificant the buff is.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20171 votes

Poppy's buff is pretty decent. Maokai buff is huge for his ult. Gnar, who isn't a tank, is getting +40 base damage which is huge. Sunfire is getting better to build, which is huge.

OP Garen SupportJun 23, 20172 votes

Meanwhile tank builds still lack 500 hp and HP scaling champion did not receive any compensation. Yeah "buffs" we are still at huge nerfed state. Maokai ult sucks ass I see noone playing him anyway.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20172 votes

Meanwhile tank builds get more armor and the champion named Poppy gets free addition percent armor and magic resistance.

500 is huge for Maokai ult.

Then again, what would you know? You just downvote people who disagree with you when you're wrong.

OP Garen SupportJun 23, 20172 votes

Funny. I feel the same way you spouting nonsense meanwhile downvoting me :D

Ah i see you did not understand me. Riot removed globally around 500 hp from core tank items. It was a huge nerf for these champions : Darius DrMundo Garen Nautilus Maokai Malphite Sion Vladimir Volibear Zac Chogath TahmKench Galio Gragas Gnar Kled Shen Skarner

All these champs have HP scaling abilities where are their compensation? Riot shit on all these champion meanwhile buffing ADC and adc items left and right Dont bs me with lethality got nerfed, lethality should have never been used against tanks in the first place. Most AD items got more AD in exhcnage for less damage now tanks die faster then before. Not to mention item 3026 became core AD item while t was used by AP casters as well.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20172 votes

Riot globally added 10 armor to core tank items and nerfed % armor pen globally, which buffs EVERY SINGLE GOD DAMNED CHAMPION YOU LISTED JUST AS EQUALLY.

AP casters have hourglass. They do not need Guardian Angel.

OP Garen SupportJun 23, 20172 votes

You are pissing me off by how stupid you are seriously. Conversation over.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20171 votes

Any health based healing those champions got is worth the same because they have more armor. Percent health damage is always worth the same no matter what.

Kled's smaller form has more survivability with armor.

The lack of use of logic you don't use is annoying.

OP Garen SupportJun 23, 20171 votes

None of the tank update was worth it for tanks. Ask any tank main. The truth is tanks melt in seconds so the "nerfs" on lethality means nothing.

"AP casters have hourglass. They do not need Guardian Angel." -Oh really? We mage mains used it a lot as well .

item 3157 vs item 3026 item 3814 item 3139 item 3046 item 3812

Yes its so "logical" to make and universal item into ADC item because they clearly lacked defensive items.

You are gold V started 1 season ago you are still new to this game to give a sound logical evaluation of the situation. You dont play Tanks or Mages yet you argue with me who plays every role that Im the illogical 1. Go and play a few games as tank and build only armor and you will see how awesome that little armor is.

You lack the experience needed to properly evaluate what Im trying to say. You are not a noob because you managed to reach gold but you are a newbie.

HP>armor any time HP saves your life it works both VS AP and AD armor only works vs AD.

Tanks lost most of their damage output ADC's did not.

Lethality was introduced so that assassins can kill tanks meanwhile the assassins true job is to kill the AP and AD carry.

Lethality should have never been used by ADC's Riot screwed up with it.

Riot introduces new things that may be either good or bad.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20171 votes

Just hourglass? If we counter all AD defensive items, then we have to counter all AP ones too. No cherry picking. item 3157 item 3102 item 3030 item 3027 item 3151 item 3116 That's 5 AD to 6 AP.

Attacking me as a person doesn't make you sound better. I've played a tank, Poppy. It was very overpowered at the time, and I still think her W is overpowered in certain matchups. I play against tanks, not fun fighting full armor Galio and my basic attacks deal 50-100 damage. My person doesn't matter, because I'm correct regardless and you're attack me just because you don't want to agree.

Your amount of logical failures here makes me think you're the "newbie" here.

HP>armor any time HP saves your life it works both VS AP and AD armor only works vs AD.

See, was it hard just to begin with this?

Tanks aren't supposed to have damage output. They have CC, and surprisingly, Zac is broken because of his CC.

Do you know how lethality works? DO YOU KNOW HOW FLAT PEN WORKS? HOW THE BLOODY HELL IS THAT GOING TO HELP YOU KILL A TANK?

The job of lethality is to be flat armor pen that scales up with the target's armor per level so it's always equally valuable at all stages of the game, instead on absurd early.

OP Garen SupportJun 23, 20171 votes

are those ap items anti AD? See you are spouting BS. You are inexperienced yet you argue like you got more experience. You are still a noob compared to me with nothing to back up your claim. I was wrong to argue with you ebcause you are not someone who can have a meaningful discussion you are blind only seeing your side I see every side.

Bob the ToastrJun 24, 20172 votes

You literally just put items with both ap and health. Here I will do the same for ad items. item 3022 item 3184 item 3052 item 3104 item 3044 item 3071 item 3748 item 3078 item 3053

Those are all defensive items right?

Glory ln DeathJun 22, 20176 votes

What Sunfire buffs? The only thing that's changing is one of its components is getting a price reduction and a stat reduction. Sunfire itself isn't changing at all.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20172 votes

You mean you get the same DoT component damage for cheaper? Sounds like a buff.

Glory ln DeathJun 23, 20174 votes

With less stats? That doesn't upgrade into an item that helps what you want to do after laning phase is over? Yeah, Bami's got buffed slightly, but Sunfire itself hasn't been touched, and the passive is still crap now that it has no range and deals basically no damage to champions. Tanks generally aren't going to be splitpushing, so why do they want an item whose niche is waveclear once laning phase is over?

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20172 votes

Doesn't matter if it has worse stats, you can buy more stats in the gold you just saved. Now you get the DoT faster for laning which allows you to hold up to Tiamat in waveclear.

Huh, why did they buy Sunfire in the first place then?

Glory ln DeathJun 23, 20172 votes

Before the Tank Update nerfs? Because it actually did damage to champions. It gave them more presence in team fights, since they were dealing damage to the champions around them. It actually had more than decent value outside of laning phase.

After the Tank Update nerfs? Because there wasn't another decent Health + Armor item that they could invest in that would help their early game.

Deadman's doesn't help their early waveclear significantly, and its passive is awkward to use for trades when you expend its charges while farming, and has the same crappy stats as Sunfire, so there's no point in getting it.
Randuin's is niche, especially in the laning phase and, again, doesn't help you waveclear or trade.
Ohmwrecker is a joke of an item in almost every scenario.

Currently, Sunfire is an early game item with the same price as other late game tank items. Once mid game hits, it starts falling off pretty quick. But tanks still almost have to get it because there is no other decent starting armor item for them.

FairyfleurJun 22, 20171 votes

The hammer shock change isn't bad at all.

kasfasJun 22, 20177 votes

We're going to build a wardens mail, and I'll make the enemy team pay for it.

We're going to MAKE FROZENHEART GREAT AGAIN!

MrHaZeYoJun 22, 20175 votes

I'd be down for a buff to it.

ValexforJun 22, 20175 votes

I'd say make it something like this:

Frozen Heart: Cost - 3100 (?) +100 Armor +400 Mana +20% Cdr

Unique Passive: When hit by a basic attack, cripple the enemy attack speed and movements speed by 10%. Stacks up to 3 times (maybe 4). Stacks last 5 (maybe 4 or 6) seconds and decay all at once.

Or maybe:

Frozen Heart: Cost - 3100 (?) +100 Armor +400 Mana +20% Cdr

Unique Passive: When hit by a basic attack, cripple the enemy attack speed by 10%. Stacks up to 3 (4?) times. Stacks last 5 (maybe 4 or 6) seconds and decay all at once. Unique Active: Slows target affected by the passive for 15% per stack (90 sec cd) (800 range).

These changes would make FH more effective against on-hit as carries, making it the alternative to the (kinda shitty atm) Randuin's that's more focused against crit attackers while not making the item particularly oppressive since, both versions, tend to punish more enemies that focus on the tank, meaning that as long as the tank doesn't get hit too much, the item's passive and active will be worthless, this might make tanks survive longer by themselves, but it's not a huge margin. Also the cost could go up to even 3300, making the dream of tank players to have an ACTUAL big ticket item come true. The armor buff would be there for the price increase obviously (a 3000+ item should have at least 100 armor imho) and because let's face it: we all want a 100 armor item that doesn't suck and that can be used on more than 3 champs.

Obviously this are just 2 suggestions I got withouth thinking too much into it so they might be unbalanced and people might not like them, but it would still be better than live FH imho...

Glory ln DeathJun 22, 20173 votes

Hmmm... Removing the aura attack speed slow takes out a lot of the items power and its niche of affecting a fight by being in the middle of it.

What if it applied the stacks when the enemy attacked you and when you dealt damage to them? Possibly requiring more stacks to reach the max.

ValexforJun 22, 20171 votes

Well, the item is mostly for people that want to get aggro on themselves, so making it stack on attacking would make it too strong on divers who usually can apply stacks quite fast. This is a defensive item, not an offensive one. It could still be an aura bu it would need to stack once per every second, which is no too good, 3 seconds are too many, you'll be dead by that time... or it could be just weak, but then we wouldn't really have a better item, which is the reason we want it changed. Obviously, I'm not a professional analyst and your suggestion could even be better than mine!

RainfallJun 22, 20173 votes

There are just so many tank items that give armor or/and mr but not health. maybe frozen heart needs a rework.

RalanrJun 22, 20171 votes

IBG, Stoneplate, FH...what else?

Most tank items are giving health (lower amounts of it) with their resistances.

Glory ln DeathJun 22, 20171 votes

Zz'rot, Locket (support tank item, but still)

Sire HippingtonJun 22, 20172 votes

item 3060 item 3190 item 3075 item 3050 item 3512

And as you sad, most other tank items by now only give LOWER amounts of health, and with less hp from other items in general, raw resistances are less effective.

Bob the ToastrJun 24, 20171 votes

When was the last time you build a Zeke's Harbinger or a Banner of command or a Thornmail?

SkiasJun 22, 20173 votes

Make it build from Catalyst and give it dominant Mana. Boom, fixed. 500 mana and 300 HP.

Cosmic WarperJun 22, 20173 votes

The problem is that it's being built even less because there is more armor and less hp on the other anti-ad tank items. If you buy frozen heart you spend a lot of time without bonus hp.