That warwick nerf explanation

Bears Dont Care··4 votes·1,660 views

While we don't want to take away Warwick's new-found status as a power-pick, lowering the frequency of his Infinite Duress ganks (which, when executed well, mean kills for his laning friends) will help **cement a weakness (low-utility ganks without R) into what is an already well-rounded werewolf. **

I cannot disagree with this any greater. What utility? His AD steroid? It holds no worth until he has his R, that is literally what his ganking and late game revolves around, his R. Meanwhile you have Junglers such as Lee sin, Kha'zix, and Rengar who are nowhere near as reliant on a single ability as Warwick. The nerf is absolutely unnecessary because most junglers are fine as soon as they begin building off of machete.

He is very underpowered, he is not at all well rounded when you consider the current status of the game. Considering the implementation of Kallista, how can it be stayed that Warwck is at all well rounded? Epecially when there are better jungle picks?

I was hoping that Warwick revamp was coming soon, but I have doubts it will ever happen

30 Comments

Narasimha5 votes

Its because he dominates the new jungle. Him and Nunu especially.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Really? We're going by win rate? Okay, I guess Warwick is a better jungler than Lee sin because win rate. Amumu is too cause...win rate.

Shut the fuck up about win rate, its stupid.

AtheosisX3 votes

Really? We're going by win rate? Okay, I guess Warwick is a better jungler than Lee sin because win rate. Amumu is too cause...win rate.

Shut the fuck up about win rate, its stupid.

Yeah because hard statistics should be ignored when they don't support one's position, right? A 54% win rate in Diamond means far less than your opinion am I right?

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Yeah because hard statistics should be ignored when they don't support one's position, right? A 54% win rate in Diamond means far less than your opinion am I right?

It isn't a hard statistic because...

  1. It is a team game. This means team composition, coordination, and communication are extremely important. Characters that are strong solo naturally will have a higher win rate than characters more reliant on their team.

  2. Pick rate. The lower the pick rate, the easier it is to inflate the win rate. LCS wise. Lee sin was picked 50+ times. Warwick? Was he even picked in NA lcs?

  3. Ban rate. A more likely indication of the strength of the character. Lee sin is over 80% in terms of ban rate Warwick? Was he ever banned?

There is a reason WW doesn't see play in the LCS. There is a reason no one goes "OMFG RIOT NERF WW HE TOO STRONK!"

Your win rare is not directly correlated to Champion viability. Apply some basic logic.

Rengar Would like to have a word with you on how he is reliant on having an empowered ability ready before every fight. No emp Q, no damage, no emp e, no gank.

Use 5 abilities. E is ready.

Hayaishi2 votes

Yeah because hard statistics should be ignored when they don't support one's position, right? A 54% win rate in Diamond means far less than your opinion am I right?

It isn't a hard statistic because...

  1. It is a team game. This means team composition, coordination, and communication are extremely important. Characters that are strong solo naturally will have a higher win rate than characters more reliant on their team.

  2. Pick rate. The lower the pick rate, the easier it is to inflate the win rate. LCS wise. Lee sin was picked 50+ times. Warwick? Was he even picked in NA lcs?

  3. Ban rate. A more likely indication of the strength of the character. Lee sin is over 80% in terms of ban rate Warwick? Was he ever banned?

There is a reason WW doesn't see play in the LCS. There is a reason no one goes "OMFG RIOT NERF WW HE TOO STRONK!"

Your win rare is not directly correlated to Champion viability. Apply some basic logic.

Rengar Would like to have a word with you on how he is reliant on having an empowered ability ready before every fight. No emp Q, no damage, no emp e, no gank.

Use 5 abilities. E is ready.

And thus his nerf was aimed for his soloq dominance.

Why is it that hard to understand?

AtheosisX1 votes

And thus his nerf was aimed for his soloq dominance.

Why is it that hard to understand?

Because he doesn't seem to understand that not every champ is intended for pro-level organized team play?

AtheosisX1 votes

I'm not a huge fan of the nerf, and I don't really get why they would nerf his early ganking potential since that's already his weakness. That said, I do think his sustain is going to make him very good in this new jungle. So in the end it probably isn't the end of the world. The truth is that most people probably rarely made use of that 90 second cooldown. Ganks are rarely that timely.

Mat7itan1 votes

I understand why they nerfed him and I'm glad they did. While at lower tier people typically won't gank every 90 seconds I've got a friend who mains jungle, and when he plays WW I get a kill every 90 seconds (I main mid)... nothing like taking a little poke just to bait the enemy in so that they suddenly can't do anything for almost 2 seconds so I can with the press of a few buttons safely land all my skills and essentially 100 to 0 them.

SpeedWobble1 votes

item 3025 item 3022

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Warwick dominates the jungle itself yeah, but he's still a bad jungler overall Nunu is different though.

AtheosisX1 votes

Warwick dominates the jungle itself yeah, but he's still a bad jungler overall Nunu is different though.

He is not a bad jungler. He has a high win rate across pretty much all levels of play. And that's in the old jungle.

AnomalousChimera1 votes

Low-utility means little to no utility, which definitely applies to Warwick when his ult is down. Just saying.

Hayaishi1 votes

Warwick is not underpowered, even his Win Rate says otherwise.

AtheosisX1 votes

I call bullshit on that. First of all he's only ganking your lane? Second of all higher elo players are better at avoiding WW ganks, not worse.

Saelani1 votes

Rengar Would like to have a word with you on how he is reliant on having an empowered ability ready before every fight. No emp Q, no damage, no emp e, no gank.

AtheosisX1 votes
  1. It is a hard statistic. A set, non-variable number measuring a set of events is a hard statistic. What you are saying is like saying the criminal conviction rate is not a hard statistic because every criminal conviction has different circumstances. It doesn't matter. The end number is what it is: a hard stat.

  2. LCS play is not a measure of general champion viability. It is a measure of viability at the very highest level of play with extremely coordinated team strategies (in this context WW is too vulnerable to CC and ganks too late to be used over champs like Lee Sin). To dismiss win rate in Diamond and then site LCS is absolutely absurd when talking about champion balance in this game.

  3. Win rate is in fact correlative to champion strength. It is not causal. Do you understand the difference between these two words?

Bears Dont Care1 votes
  1. It is a hard statistic. A set, non-variable number measuring a set of events is a hard statistic. What you are saying is like saying the criminal conviction rate is not a hard statistic because every criminal conviction has different circumstances. It doesn't matter. The end number is what it is: a hard stat.

Pardon, I used the wrong terminology at the time, what I am referring to is known as stand alone evidence. Evidence that can stand by itself, that is capable of supporting an argument without the need of interpretation or an explanation of the circumstances. The win rate doesn't function n such a fashion because of the nature of the game being team based. This is entirely different from fighting games which can be evaluated on win rate, due to the 1v1 nature of the game or even 2v2 or 3v3 nature of the game.

  1. LCS play is not a measure of general champion viability. It is a measure of viability at the very highest level of play with extremely coordinated team strategies (in this context WW is too vulnerable to CC and ganks too late to be used over champs like Lee Sin). To dismiss win rate in Diamond and then site LCS is absolutely absurd when talking about champion balance in this game.

It is not absurd, when you are looking to determine if a champion is viable, then you need to assume the highest level of play. You cannot look at Diamond and say "this is an accurate view of a champion's capability." when it really isn't because many important factors are completely missing and absent.

Otherwise, Lee sin would never be deserving of nerfs when his win rate is below 50%.

  1. Win rate is in fact correlative to champion strength. It is not causal. Do you understand the difference between these two words?

I did not say it was causal, I said it was not correlated, in that there is no direct relationship between the two. Again, if we run along with the idea that the two are correlated, then both warwick and Amumu are better junglers than Lee sin. We know they aren't, we know they have severe weaknesses that can be exploited that Lee sin does not possess. We know that Lee sin is a dominating jungler who fits into any comp and that WW and Amumu are not.

Except that by your flawed argument that win rate correlates to jungler strength, Lee sin wouldn't even be considered a top tier jungler. So, you need to accept they either or related, aren't related, or are loosely related. Based upon years of data, we know there is little correlation and that the viability of a character cannot be based upon winrates.

AtheosisX1 votes

Pardon, I used the wrong terminology at the time, what I am referring to is known as stand alone evidence. Evidence that can stand by itself, that is capable of supporting an argument without the need of interpretation or an explanation of the circumstances. The win rate doesn't function n such a fashion because of the nature of the game being team based. This is entirely different from fighting games which can be evaluated on win rate, due to the 1v1 nature of the game or even 2v2 or 3v3 nature of the game.

The problem with this theory is that it is ignoring the fact that everything else is equal. So if one champ has higher win percentage over a large enough sample it can be assumed that everything else being equal one champ is probably a bit stronger than the other. Now this is not perfect obviously, and many other factors should be considered. Still win rate is not meaningless, no matter how much you want to believe it is. There's a reason Urgot permanently dwells at the very bottom of the win rate list, and it's not bad teammates.

It is not absurd, when you are looking to determine if a champion is viable, then you need to assume the highest level of play. You cannot look at Diamond and say "this is an accurate view of a champion's capability." when it really isn't because many important factors are completely missing and absent.

Otherwise, Lee sin would never be deserving of nerfs when his win rate is below 50%.

LCS is only one of many factors to be considered in balancing this game, and the truth is that if it is used as the primary factor this game will only get more and more unbalanced. First of all LCS is an extremely small sample size in terms of players. No players, no matter how good they are, are equally good with all champs. So when you use LCS as your primary measuring stick you are including player skill to an extremely heavy degree. An analogy could be made to a sport like basketball where in recent years center play has degraded, therefore shifting emphasis away from centers as anchors for offenses. Does this mean center play is not still able to dominate? No. It means there are few to no centers who can dominate at present. So to assume that a champ is terrible because they are unplayed in LCS is extremely faulty, because you never really know if it's the lack of a player that can play them at a high enough level to be competitive or if they are genuinely bad (until you look at other factors like win rate across various divisions).

Beyond that not all champs are designed to take advantage of the high skills of pro players. That is by design. They have a lower ceiling and usually a lower floor. Warwick and many others are considered starter champs that are easy to play and succeed with with minimal skill. These champs will never appeal to the pros unless they are outright overpowered because they are limiting to their exemplary play-making abilities.

I did not say it was causal, I said it was not correlated, in that there is no direct relationship between the two. Again, if we run along with the idea that the two are correlated, then both warwick and Amumu are better junglers than Lee sin. We know they aren't, we know they have severe weaknesses that can be exploited that Lee sin does not possess. We know that Lee sin is a dominating jungler who fits into any comp and that WW and Amumu are not.

Except that by your flawed argument that win rate correlates to jungler strength, Lee sin wouldn't even be considered a top tier jungler. So, you need to accept they either or related, aren't related, or are loosely related. Based upon years of data, we know there is little correlation and that the viability of a character cannot be based upon winrates.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what correlation means. Correlation is not on it's own something that one can ever draw a decisive conclusion from. It can merely be used as an indicator, and it can be wrong. To use another crime analogy, when a drug kingpin takes over a neighborhood and the murder rate in that neighborhood skyrockets there is a correlation between the two. The correlation indicates that the kingpin is the cause, but further inquiry is necessary to know for sure. Win rates are like this. They do not prove that a champ is overpowered, balanced, or underpowered, but they are a good indicator to start with. Pick rate by the way has an inverse correlative relationship with win rate for various reasons (thus the Lee Sin win rate which is likely very indicative of opponent familiarity and many players not being as skilled with him). That said Warwick is actually pretty popular, and is still rocking a very high win rate.

My overall take is that Warwick is quite strong at the moment, especially in solo queue. I do not think he needed a nerf, but the reports regarding the new jungle being so favorable to him may have justified it. Your claim that Warwick was bad before these nerfs on the other hand is based on nothing but a lack of play by the pros, and to be blunt that is not proof of anything on its own other than he may be a liability in terms of advanced team strategies and/or his lack of early game ganking likely has made him unappealing versus the early gankers that dominate the pro scene.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

The problem with this theory is that it is ignoring the fact that everything else is equal. So if one champ has higher win percentage over a large enough sample it can be assumed that everything else being equal one champ is probably a bit stronger than the other. Now this is not perfect obviously, and many other factors should be considered. Still win rate is not meaningless, no matter how much you want to believe it is. There's a reason Urgot permanently dwells at the very bottom of the win rate list, and it's not bad teammates.

Except the problem with that theory is that if we assume it to be true, then lee sin is a weaker champion than both Amumu and Warwick. We know this to be false, and we know that in reality when high level of play occurs, they actually sit towards the bottom and middle in terms of viability. Win rate may be an indication, may, but it cannot dictate anything even with a massive sample size simply because of the dynamic nature of the game.

LCS is only one of many factors to be considered in balancing this game, and the truth is that if it is used as the primary factor this game will only get more and more unbalanced. First of all LCS is an extremely small sample size in terms of players. No players, no matter how good they are, are equally good with all champs. So when you use LCS as your primary measuring stick you are including player skill to an extremely heavy degree. An analogy could be made to a sport like basketball where in recent years center play has degraded, therefore shifting emphasis away from centers as anchors for offenses. Does this mean center play is not still able to dominate? No. It means there are few to no centers who can dominate at present. So to assume that a champ is terrible because they are unplayed in LCS is extremely faulty, because you never really know if it's the lack of a player that can play them at a high enough level to be competitive or if they are genuinely bad (until you look at other factors like win rate across various divisions).

Your analogy does not function well because Champions are constant until otherwise changed by Riot. Players in baskeyball vary biologically and physically and so one cannot do such an analogy because of such factors. While the LCS is a small sample size, we also understand that the choices made is based around the capability and gameplay of each character. When you evaluate the little gameplay Warwick has seen int he LCS and analyze his tools on top of it, then there is no surprise that Warwick sees little play compared to Lee sin.

The LCS is a very accurate measure of champion capability because at such high levels of play, the skill gap becomes smaller and smaller and the tools your champion possesses become more and more important. Unlike Basketball where physical differences are existent and thus, while skill may be relatively equal, a physiological difference can create a difference in performance.

Warwick doesn't see play in the LCS because he doesn't possess the same tools necessary to be successful in teamplay. When you consider the changes in each season, the importance of utility for junglers/top laners, this explains Warwick's lack of play. He excels in 1v1 yes, but the game isn't built around it outside of early game. mid game and late game is what matters and that is where Warwick begins to fall off in comparison.

Beyond that not all champs are designed to take advantage of the high skills of pro players. That is by design. They have a lower ceiling and usually a lower floor. Warwick and many others are considered starter champs that are easy to play and succeed with with minimal skill. These champs will never appeal to the pros unless they are outright overpowered because they are limiting to their exemplary play-making abilities.

To summarize, Warwick isn't "good" enough. He cannot make the plays that Elise, Lee sin, Rengar, and Kha'zix can make. This was why he was even slated for a revamp because even Riot recognizes that the current environment causes Warwick to be less viable to other junglers. The mobility creep and itemization changes also compound onto this issue.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what correlation means. Correlation is not on it's own something that one can ever draw a decisive conclusion from. It can merely be used as an indicator, and it can be wrong. To use another crime analogy, when a drug kingpin takes over a neighborhood and the murder rate in that neighborhood skyrockets there is a correlation between the two. The correlation indicates that the kingpin is the cause, but further inquiry is necessary to know for sure. Win rates are like this. They do not prove that a champ is overpowered, balanced, or underpowered, but they are a good indicator to start with. Pick rate by the way has an inverse correlative relationship with win rate for various reasons (thus the Lee Sin win rate which is likely very indicative of opponent familiarity and many players not being as skilled with him). That said Warwick is actually pretty popular, and is still rocking a very high win rate.

I understand very well what you are implying by your correlation argument and I am stating that you are wrong. There is no correlation of champion strength towards win rate, and we see many example where a champion will possess a higher win rate than upper tier junglers simply on the basis of opponents being

  1. Unfamiliar.
  2. Incapable of coordinating properly (solo queue is a solo warrior fest).
  3. Popularity.

As such, win rate doesn't present any correlation relevant towards champion capability. Simply because of the issues that you yourself have also presented. You're only going to see accuracy for win rate at the extreme ends.

My overall take is that Warwick is quite strong at the moment, especially in solo queue. I do not think he needed a nerf, but the reports regarding the new jungle being so favorable to him may have justified it. Your claim that Warwick was bad before these nerfs on the other hand is based on nothing but a lack of play by the pros, and to be blunt that is not proof of anything on its own other than he may be a liability in terms of advanced team strategies and/or his lack of early game ganking likely has made him unappealing versus the early gankers that dominate the pro scene.

Actually no, Warwick has been played a few times, and we have seen him come out victorious but there were several issues at hand. The first and foremost was one you mentioned. A lack of early game presence and early game pressure. The other issue was that in mid-game and late-game, Warwick is incapable of carrying out plays necessary to win the game. Warwick can leap onto an ADC, but you also must consider that any CC will break his ultimate and the ADC will be able to escape.

He cannot kick the ADC out of position like Lee sin, or quickly assassinate them like Rengar and Kha'zix. A lack of CC also means he has no pickng capability, and if you watch the few LCS games he is present, he largely spends his time in the jugnel and during team fights running back and forth. You may think he is strong, but this is only in the environment in solo queue where gameplay is less than sufficient for evaluating performance.

AtheosisX1 votes
  1. You keep bringing up Lee Sin, when I already said play rate has an inverse correlation with win rate.

  2. Claiming there is no correlation between win rate and champion strength is silly in my opinion, but it's entirely up to you to hold that position if you like. Diamond level play and the win rates there are a highly correlative as far as I'm concerned. In the end that's the nature of correlations though, they prove nothing on their own. Other factors have to be considered. LCS play is another factor, but it is not the only factor.

  3. Yes the issues you point out with Warwick are issues. It is known. That doesn't mean he's bad as you claim. He is not. Even with these nerfs he is far from bad. Not being a good choice in pro play does not make a champ bad. Sorry.

Bears Dont Care1 votes
  1. You keep bringing up Lee Sin, when I already said play rate has an inverse correlation with win rate.

We have already been over this, Lee sin is not the only example.

  1. Claiming there is no correlation between win rate and champion strength is silly in my opinion, but it's entirely up to you to hold that position if you like. Diamond level play and the win rates there are a highly correlative as far as I'm concerned. In the end that's the nature of correlations though, they prove nothing on their own. Other factors have to be considered. LCS play is another factor, but it is not the only factor.

You cannot claim there is a correlation when we understand that there are several issues at hand for such an argument. While you may feel diamond play holds a high correlation, you would then need to explain the stark difference between it and LCS/Challenger.

  1. Yes the issues you point out with Warwick are issues. It is known. That doesn't mean he's bad as you claim. He is not. Even with these nerfs he is far from bad. Not being a good choice in pro play does not make a champ bad. Sorry.

Yes...he is bad. You are making the distinction that for a champion to be bad, they need to be urgot status. A champion can be bad even if he is better than urgot status, because bad is relative.

@Hayaishi: Dude, we all know the issues with Rengar have always been due to LCS big plays and nonsense like that.

AtheosisX1 votes

I really don't have to account for the stark difference between Diamond and Challenger/LCS. 99.99999% of LOL players play in that or below. The game needs to be balanced for them as well as your beloved pros.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

I really don't have to account for the stark difference between Diamond and Challenger/LCS. 99.99999% of LOL players play in that or below. The game needs to be balanced for them as well as your beloved pros.

You can't account for people who aren't good, because then you end up with champs who end up broke as hell, they get nerfed to unviabilty and the cycle just repeats.

AtheosisX1 votes

You can't account for people who aren't good, because then you end up with champs who end up broke as hell, they get nerfed to unviabilty and the cycle just repeats.

Diamonds aren't good now? Your LCS obsession is just dumb. Balancing this game based solely on freakishly good players that comprise one in a million talents is an absolutely retarded notion. And again, not all champs are intended for pro-level play.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Diamonds aren't good now? Your LCS obsession is just dumb.

You're an idiot, no such thing was said. Stating that the game should not be balanced around individuals who are not good =/= stating diamonds are not good. You're looking far too deeply into things for the sake of making retarded statements. Cut it out.

Diamond players are good, as are challengers, the difference is that they are solo queued. The coordination and communication just isn't there for them to function the same way. So you can't accurately measure the effectiveness of those champs because it is solo.

And again, not all champs are intended for pro-level play.

That is true, but to suggest that some champions are good, is a fallacy. If a champ cannot function at a high level of play, they aren't a good character relative to the others.

AtheosisX1 votes

So by your logic nearly all the champs in this game are bad. Got it. You really are obsessed with pro play and it warps your perceptions.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

So by your logic nearly all the champs in this game are bad. Got it. You really are obsessed with pro play and it warps your perceptions.

According to your logic, any champ can be considered good so long as they have a decent win rate. Warwick, Amumu, etc etc. Which we just know isn't true. You can't state "Warwick is good, but he just isn't good for high level play which is why he isn't picked." You need to define what you consider "good." Are you speaking relative to other champions viability at a role? Or are you talking in terms of design?

You're really obsessed with the scrub play and it warps your perceptions. Let's not go and try to degrade each other's viewpoints with obnoxiously stupid statements yeah?

Hayaishi2 votes

So by your logic nearly all the champs in this game are bad. Got it. You really are obsessed with pro play and it warps your perceptions.

According to your logic, any champ can be considered good so long as they have a decent win rate. Warwick, Amumu, etc etc. Which we just know isn't true. You can't state "Warwick is good, but he just isn't good for high level play which is why he isn't picked." You need to define what you consider "good." Are you speaking relative to other champions viability at a role? Or are you talking in terms of design?

You're really obsessed with the scrub play and it warps your perceptions. Let's not go and try to degrade each other's viewpoints with obnoxiously stupid statements yeah?

Every champion works in soloq.

Amumu and ww and even fiddlesticks are the best junglers in soloq. Their playstyles fit soloq more than Lee Sin's. Which is why the win more than him.

In competitive play junglers dont farm alot, and champions that are dependent on their ultimates are not reliable enough which is why they dont see play (amumu yi fiddlesticks ww)

Now WW Yi amumu and fiddles are strong in soloq arguably too strong and that is why WW gets nerfed based on his soloq performance.

WW sees regular play in high elo and has an above average win rate, he was never underpowered. competitive and soloq are 2 different games and riot treats it as such.

Again WW was probably too good in soloq and his win rate justified the nerfs, is that simple.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

I played warwick jungle today 4 games so far posstive kda on all and all wins. Even I thought the nerf was gonna be a nail in the coffin...I was wrong.

Battlemagi1 votes

I completely agree, but I only starting playing him season 3, to Nerf Warwick's basic mechanics because of a flaw with the item they created is dumb. I was good with Warwick before that item came out, and I didn't even use Feral Flare, I ran Elder Lizard, and I had a 75% win ratio with him in ranked, I was 9/2 with him.

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