When is AP itemization against tanks going to be improved?

Yenn·Oct 10, 2017·17 votes·1,127 views

Kind of sad that it's taking so long to address this, and AP itemization being terrible in general.

Is it really that hard to add another component to Liandry's/Void Staff?

38 Comments

PopcornBunniOct 10, 20173 votes

Add an item that's a cross between item 3091 and item 3071 , chipping off percentages of magic resistance for each spell cast/auto attack.

It won't solve everything, but AP is always going to be a very hard area to tackle since AP itself varies greatly in value between each mage, the damage is always going to be gated by cooldowns instead of the Auto-focused damage of ADCs, and weaving autos with spells is minimally impactful without gutting your itemization by building item 3100 item 3115

With marksmen, their spells aren't negatively impacted by the items they build, and, in fact, most have good enough spell base damage and scalings , or spells which are designed to synergies with auto attacks so much, that they would be massively GIVING UP damage by building all of the highest AD values in an attempt to scale,

Mages face the same issue, giving up huge spell damage to improve their autos, but don't have the benefit that ADCs get where a single item like item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 or item 3072 provides SEVERAL beneficial combat attributes.

item 3165 's is the closest, and was specifically MADE to do just about everything intentionally. It's telling that pure AP casters like LeBlanc are rushing a hybrid item, item 3146 and willingly giving up AP to get 40 points of a stat they can't use well, just because the active and spell vamp help them more than actual mage items.

And that isn't a because Gunblade itsellf is anything remarkable, even for the hybrid users that can utilize it most. It is just that normal caster items are so fucking bad that hybrid items do their job better.

NGNL AsianOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Add an item that's a cross between and , chipping off percentages of magic resistance for each spell cast/auto attack.

It won't solve everything, but AP is always going to be a very hard area to tackle since AP itself varies greatly in value between each mage, the damage is always going to be gated by cooldowns instead of the Auto-focused damage of ADCs, and weaving autos with spells is minimally impactful without gutting your itemization by building

With marksmen, their spells aren't negatively impacted by the items they build, and, in fact, most have good enough spell base damage and scalings , or spells which are designed to synergies with auto attacks so much, that they would be massively GIVING UP damage by building all of the highest AD values in an attempt to scale,

Mages face the same issue, giving up huge spell damage to improve their autos, but don't have the benefit that ADCs get where a single item like or provides SEVERAL beneficial combat attributes.

's is the closest, and was specifically MADE to do just about everything intentionally. It's telling that pure AP casters like LeBlanc are rushing a hybrid item, and willingly giving up AP to get 40 points of a stat they can't use well, just because the active and spell vamp help them more than actual mage items.

And that isn't a because Gunblade itsellf is anything remarkable, even for the hybrid users that can utilize it most. It is just that normal caster items are so fucking bad that hybrid items do their job better.

I mean then cass would just makes tanks unviable and kogmaw would be even more broken late game

PopcornBunniOct 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=NGNL Asian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vi59ZGBa,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-11T01:27:01.370+0000)

I mean then cass would just makes tanks unviable and kogmaw would be even more broken late game

As a staunch tank and tanky build player, I'd be fine with Cassiopoeia being a tank melter mage. Kogmaw's underlying issues go beyond the scope of abuse of a particular item or another.

The more pressing issue with AP items is that ADC items have three abusable stats that work with both their autos and their spells (AD, Crit, AS), while casters are stuck with raw AP numbers (which as said vary greatly in how important they are for each character's scalings) and CDR, which is maxed out very easily and which is found only as useful as it can be on battlemages with already low cooldowns.

As-is, a pretty substantial chunk of mages are effectively "nuke bots" which unleash a full rotation or a raw ult, then become largely useless for 60-120 seconds.

The other largest portion of mages end up being CCbots for the ADC to melt because they have items that work at every stage of the game and don't hinder their trading ability.

NGNL AsianOct 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As a staunch tank and tanky build player, I'd be fine with Cassiopoeia being a tank melter mage. Kogmaw's underlying issues go beyond the scope of abuse of a particular item or another.

The more pressing issue with AP items is that ADC items have three abusable stats that work with both their autos and their spells (AD, Crit, AS), while casters are stuck with raw AP numbers (which as said vary greatly in how important they are for each character's scalings) and CDR, which is maxed out very easily and which is found only as useful as it can be on battlemages with already low cooldowns.

As-is, a pretty substantial chunk of mages are effectively "nuke bots" which unleash a full rotation or a raw ult, then become largely useless for 60-120 seconds.

The other largest portion of mages end up being CCbots for the ADC to melt because they have items that work at every stage of the game and don't hinder their trading ability.

Kogmaw does both ad and ap damage. And TRUE DAMAGE with ardent. He also has ADDITIONAL flat magic damage per aa. with the upcoming keystones, tanks will need a buff in their hp stats, idc how much armor and mr i should i build, i have 300 armor, 210 mr and 3.5k hp and yet kog melts me. Bless taht stuff.

To kog, your armor, your mr, your hp doesnt mean shit once the sup gets ardent censor.

Tristana just does magic damage wtih energizers and crits, and that extreme atk spd stereoid on her Q and 2 disengaging abilties hence making tristana janna lanes one of the HARDEST to kill.

Twitch is just the most disgusting adc to me rn, his stealth mechanic is very disgusting to deal with, idc about control wards, late game, you dont have much space for that(choose a control ward or a potential 3k gold item). His ult is a giantic fuck you to the front to back strategy as him with hurricane and all those items just melts adcs while hitting tanks, hence his lifesteal will be quite high. Pair him with a ardent censor and he melts you even more.

Caitlyn is underrated honestly, idc about nerfs, with ardent, she procs headshots more, she does amazingly well in a meta where ie shiv rfc is a lot adc's standard build. She has an incrediblely oppresive laning phase,

Any other adcs i dont really have a problem with.

NoPaxtOct 10, 20173 votes

Are mages supposed to melt tanks or is that another role's job?

AhrisOct 10, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stark of Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vi59ZGBa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-10T08:52:15.159+0000)

Are mages supposed to melt tanks or is that another role's job?

I think it is mages job to be a carry as well, so yes, they should be able to melt tanks and not simply denied by one mr item.

RalanrOct 10, 20175 votes

No. Mages are primarily burst damage which is countered by durability. DPS mages rarely need more than what's offered to actually hurt tanks.

Mages aren't actually that big of a carry role. They can remove champions but they lack direct pushing power.

AhrisOct 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

No. Mages are primarily burst damage which is countered by durability. DPS mages rarely need more than what's offered to actually hurt tanks.

Mages aren't actually that big of a carry role. They can remove champions but they lack direct pushing power.

Yeah I hope they will fix that next season. Isn't fair ADC gets all the spotlight.

Critmaster GarenOct 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I think it is mages job to be a carry as well, so yes, they should be able to melt tanks and not simply denied by one mr item.

there are mages that are intended to be carries and they deal already enough damage to tanks and fighters.

most mages are not meant to melt tanks, and are supposed to be cc/burst threats.

AhrisOct 10, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vi59ZGBa,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-10-10T20:03:25.673+0000)

there are mages that are intended to be carries and they deal already enough damage to tanks and fighters.

most mages are not meant to melt tanks.

All ADCs are tank killers, some are better than others, but in the end they all are in some degree can duel tanks. For example, Vayne destroys tanks, and so does Varus to some extent.

Then there are some ADC who has no % health damage to tanks, yes some are meant to be tank killers, but they can still duel tanks and kill them. Not as easily as say the two examples I mentioned earlier. Due to this reason, the fact that some APC is completely shut down by presence of tank or just one MR item should not be the case. Similar to how ADCs are not denied by one armor item.

Also who is it to say mages are not meant to melt tanks? APCs are meant to be carries so late game they should be able to easily beat tanks(easily as in similar to ADCs potential to kill tanks). The difference would be that APCs will be gated by skill shot landing and cd while ADCs are right clicking sustained damage.

The Yetii RiderOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

All ADCs are tank killers, some are better than others, but in the end they all are in some degree can duel tanks. For example, Vayne destroys tanks, and so does Varus to some extent.

Then there are some ADC who has no % health damage to tanks, yes some are meant to be tank killers, but they can still duel tanks and kill them. Not as easily as say the two examples I mentioned earlier. Due to this reason, the fact that some APC is completely shut down by presence of tank or just one MR item should not be the case. Similar to how ADCs are not denied by one armor item.

Also who is it to say mages are not meant to melt tanks? APCs are meant to be carries so late game they should be able to easily beat tanks(easily as in similar to ADCs potential to kill tanks). The difference would be that APCs will be gated by skill shot landing and cd while ADCs are right clicking sustained damage.

Mages are meant to be mid game threats, marksmen are late game threats.

There is no reason to make mages as powerful as marksmen late game. Mages are infinitely more powerful than marksmen, if their DPS is equal.

AhrisOct 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vi59ZGBa,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-10T23:16:42.832+0000)

Mages are meant to be mid game threats, marksmen are late game threats.

There is no reason to make mages as powerful as marksmen late game. Mages are infinitely more powerful than marksmen, if their DPS is equal.

Marksman are point click reliable dps, mages are skill shot dependent and gated by cd. Reliable dps should not be stronger than skill shot dps.

The Yetii RiderOct 11, 20172 votes

Mages have huge range.

Mages have greater CC.

Mages have considerably higher AOE damage.

If mages were anywhere close to the effectiveness of a carry versus a single target late game, they would eat entire teams alive.

AhrisOct 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vi59ZGBa,comment-id=0003000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-11T00:29:17.983+0000)

Mages have huge range.

Mages have greater CC.

Mages have considerably higher AOE damage.

If mages were anywhere close to the effectiveness of a carry versus a single target late game, they would eat entire teams alive.

Mages have decent range(so does some adc like Jinx and Tristana). ADC has equal amount of CC as Mages imo(Jinx triple snare with no cast time, Trist point click aoe knock back, Kalista aoe knock up, etc). Some ADC has more AOE damage(Jinx, Xayah, Sivir, etc).

Aren't mages supposed to be a fearful aoe mage? Right now tanks can ignore them.

The Yetii RiderOct 11, 20172 votes

Tanks are supposed to ignore them. Divers, juggernauts, assassins, supports, marksmen and other mages cannot ignore them. You are making this a larger issue than it is. If the mage cannot kill one person on the team they focus the other four champions.

Marksmen do not have an equal amount of CC to mages. That's numerically incorrect.

Morgana Lux Orianna Lulu Syndra Annie Zyra Swain Leblanc

The point is the duration, a marksmen usually has an emergency "get away from me" CC effect that no one really cares about. It might give the marksman more time to deal a bit of damage but really it's mostly about avoiding ganks in the early game. Mages have long range, powerful, chainable CC.

SlythionOct 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Kind of sad that it's taking so long to address this, and AP itemization being terrible in general.

Is it really that hard to add another component to Liandry's/Void Staff?

Mages are meant to burst, a tank is designed to not be bursted. There are only a few mages that would theoretically be allowed to "melt" tanks (as they're dps such as Cass) but how you would balance that without them being another example of crit vayne where you just kill everything is beyond the brainpower im willing to put into this atm.

YennOct 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Mages are meant to burst, a tank is designed to not be bursted. There are only a few mages that would theoretically be allowed to "melt" tanks (as they're dps such as Cass) but how you would balance that without them being another example of crit vayne where you just kill everything is beyond the brainpower im willing to put into this atm.

DPS Mage cannot melt tanks mid game in the current state of the game, unless they're fed to shit.

As Vel'koz, I need a good 20 seconds of landing everything to kill a mid game Sejuani or Cho'gath unless I'm ahead by 7 kills, while either of them can 100 to 0 me if they touch me.

RalanrOct 10, 20173 votes

Tanks are at their strongest mid game. I can't imagine a dps mage (who are better in the late game) should be able to melt them easily at their strongest point.

YennOct 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are at their strongest mid game. I can't imagine a dps mage (who are better in the late game) should be able to melt them easily at their strongest point.

When I say mid game, I mean this season's 'late game,' because the vast majority of games don't go past 3 items. Which is why we have this problem.

AP carries have no way to mitigate the impact of tanks during the most important part of the game, because the game isn't going to last long enough to complete Void Staff or Liandry's. It makes carrying or compensating for a losing lane as an AP champion impossible unless you can lock down the game in the first 10-15 minutes.

Meanwhile, AD champions have low cost components that give them immediate benefit to whatever they're building them for. AP having to drop a lump of 2650-3000 gold to get any anti-tank utility is not okay, especially when the tanks you need to counter aren't even specifically itemizing against you.

Melting them and taking the entire duration of a team fight to kill just one tank (who at the same time will 100 to 0 you if they make contact) are two different extremes. If I'm ahead and I see that tanks are getting fed, I should be able to switch my build to help counter that and not have to wait for enough gold to complete a full item.

RalanrOct 10, 20174 votes

So let me get this straight: instead of advocating for an actual late game, you want everyone to have their late game come mid and have the mid game be non existent?

Radiant SeraphOct 14, 20171 votes

You mean like what Riot did with crit ADC's in midseason?

SlythionOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

DPS Mage cannot melt tanks mid game in the current state of the game, unless they're fed to shit.

As Vel'koz, I need a good 20 seconds of landing everything to kill a mid game Sejuani or Cho'gath unless I'm ahead by 7 kills, while either of them can 100 to 0 me if they touch me.

Alright, let's continue this conversation without using clearly broken class outliers to represent the norm of one side. As for Vel'koz, he's not known to be a tank buster to my knowledge. He may have true damage, but his only sense of dps comes from his ulti in which he is immobilized during the cast, not an ideal pick against a tankier comp.

As Ralanr so perfectly stated: "Tanks are at their strongest mid game. I can't imagine a dps mage (who are better in the late game) should be able to melt them easily at their strongest point"

dps is designed for late game while tanks are designed for mid game. You think it sucks about not being able to burst tanks at their prime time in the match while your still trying to scale? Imagine how bad it would feel for tanks to be melted during their strongest moments by a champion that's only going to scale harder into the game.

You're suggesting a change in the power relations of league that will trash tanks and isolate the entire playerbase just because it doesn't feel good to be weaker than someone.

Do I agree that ap itemization sucks? Yes, but it's not because they can't counter tanks, it's because it's a binary pos compared to all the situational shiz that adc's have handed to them for cheaper.

YennOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Alright, let's continue this conversation without using clearly broken class outliers to represent the norm of one side. As for Vel'koz, he's not known to be a tank buster to my knowledge. He may have true damage, but his only sense of dps comes from his ulti in which he is immobilized during the cast, not an ideal pick against a tankier comp.

As Ralanr so perfectly stated: "Tanks are at their strongest mid game. I can't imagine a dps mage (who are better in the late game) should be able to melt them easily at their strongest point"

dps is designed for late game while tanks are designed for mid game. You think it sucks about not being able to burst tanks at their prime time in the match while your still trying to scale? Imagine how bad it would feel for tanks to be melted during their strongest moments by a champion that's only going to scale harder into the game.

You're suggesting a change in the power relations of league that will trash tanks and isolate the entire playerbase just because it doesn't feel good to be weaker than someone.

Do I agree that ap itemization sucks? Yes, but it's not because they can't counter tanks, it's because it's a binary pos compared to all the situational shiz that adc's have handed to them for cheaper.

You're ignoring that 90% of the outcome of the vast majority of ranked games is decided in the first 15-20 minutes. This is why people say games hit late game when the ADC hits two items.

AP casters still need 4-5 items before they hit 'late game,' which virtually never happens unless you're playing in Gold or Silver.

SlythionOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You're ignoring that 90% of the outcome of the vast majority of ranked games is decided in the first 15-20 minutes. This is why people say games hit late game when the ADC hits two items.

AP casters still need 4-5 items before they hit 'late game,' which virtually never happens unless you're playing in Gold or Silver.

That sounds like a broader problem that needs to be addressed instead of just bowing to the decreasing gametime creep by bumping up the scaling of ap items...

YennOct 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That sounds like a broader problem that needs to be addressed instead of just bowing to the decreasing gametime creep by bumping up the scaling of ap items...

{quoted}

So let me get this straight: instead of advocating for an actual late game, you want everyone to have their late game come mid and have the mid game be non existent?

This is a change that Riot specifically made in order to make pro games more exciting to watch.

This isn't going away, so AP needs to be adapted to this new pacing.

SlythionOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is a change that Riot specifically made in order to make pro games more exciting to watch.

This isn't going away, so AP needs to be adapted to this new pacing.

except (and I could be wrong, but I remember reading this somewhere) the average pro game length has hardly changed in the past couple seasons

YennOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

except (and I could be wrong, but I remember reading this somewhere) the average pro game length has hardly changed in the past couple seasons

You can prolong games with coordination, but prior to this, the early parts of the game were boring to watch.

The Yetii RiderOct 10, 20173 votes

Why should it be? Tanks beat Burst. Tanks should take on two APs and live for ten seconds if they itemize against it.

PrimofPOct 10, 20172 votes

Yeah let's just makes tank's base movement speed 200 and reduce their resistances to -50. It's sad the utility, range and burst masters of the game don't one shot everyone from 1300 range.

ReySolomonOct 10, 20171 votes

The season is going to be over so there's no point in this unless you are talking about the new season that's coming then yes please give the mages/ap items attention all I saw this entire season was buff tank items or ad items or nerf to the extreme over and over.

I can't wait to see how the new season is gonna be like!

The Bearded BardOct 10, 20171 votes

The problem is Liandry's is insanely effective on the champs it's good on, and kind of weak on everyone else. If Liandry's was good on everyone, AP itemization against tanks would be fine.

Redhood MonOct 10, 20171 votes

let's play Velkoz and disintegrate people.

EinarUlfarOct 10, 20171 votes

Meddler's taking a look at AP Itemization sometime after preseason drops. Definitely before mid-season; he made it sound as though he wouldn't wait long after S8 begins to take a swing at AP itemization.

Titanium70Oct 10, 20171 votes

Actually I'd consider it fine if we had a good Rock-Paper-Scissors system of different types of DMG.

ADC>Tank>Mage / DPS>Sustain>Burst the problem is this also requires Mage>ADC / Burst>DPS and... yeah... no. Not these days. In this as someone called it: Burst per Second Meta. ^^

Sure going this way we'd still need some viable itemization for AP-DPS Champs like Azir or Cassio but imo their issues should e fixed via kit - not necessarily items which can be 'abused' by Burst Champs.

Itemization should be never be able to negate your weakness completely - at max it should be able to cover it a little if necessary.

Still - the current AP Itemization is boring beyond belive and really need some work done!

The Last BalladOct 10, 20171 votes

Some more ap/as items along the lines of item 3115 and item 3124 would be nice though.

EedatOct 10, 20171 votes

I dunno if Void needs buffs as it's already a very strong item. The problem a lot of mages are going to face is that they're more burst heavy over DPS. Burst is never going to be as effective against tanks.