... The so called "mains" create post after post, explaining how the champion in question is fine as they are, how the rework will destroy them etc. And every time they are proven wrong. I'm just getting so tired of it. When will people understand that Riot has done the testing needed, and they know way better what is good for a champion and what is bad for it than you ever could with only theorycrafting.
Linna Excel4 votesWhen will people understand that Riot has done the testing needed, and they know way better what is good for a champion and what is bad for it
Not happening. Too many wrong reworks (Cass, Soraka, Karma) for us to give that benefit of the doubt to riot. Or reworks that didn't really help the champ (Sejuani). Or sidegrades that made a champ clunkier (Sona).
IMO the best reworks were Miss Fortune and Sivir because riot didn't really break how those champs were played. They were also 2 reworks that the fans of those champs didn't really complain about (well, MF for losing mage fortune until that was reverted after she went live).
Flemman3 votesWell, for some rework, it's not really about fighting power (because we all expect riot to not release a much less powerfull champ :p) but more about champion style completely change.
For exemple, the recent cassio rework took away her harass in lane to focus on late game carry only (and we know poeple like it or trist would never be pick) It's deffinitivelly not the same playstyle so, it's plain normal that main of this champ will rage a bit about it
Linna Excel3 votesThis, if you screw up the feel of the champ or how it plays in a bad way for the mains of a champ, it doesn't really matter how strong it is.
Zarkkast3 votesLike Flemman said, it's not about will the champion be viable or not. It's about the feel of the champion.
Karma as it is today is an amazing champion, both as support and mage. But old Karma was completely destroyed. Same for Trundle. They're almost entirely different champions right now.
They did an amazing job for Heimerdinger, for instance. He still feels the same and even better. Sona is still good, but she doesn't feel the same anymore, her playstyle has shifted from backline support, like Nami, to hug-your-ally, like Braum. Same thing happened to Gragas and Nidalee, no one's saying they're bad champions now, they're just different champions. There are ways of making a rework without destroying the champions core playstyle and identity.
YGW Caspie2 votesYes, I agree Sona rework was a great success. In all honesty they HAVE messed up reworks multiple times, and if as a company you have access to people who have put hundreds if not thousands of games on ONE champion then perhaps they have valid input. Not saying the community is right and A LOT of the time they do overreact or underestimate Riot and yes Riot have gotten better at reworks but that doesn't make them immune from actual criticism and there is no problem with actual criticism.
Also the so-called "mains" put in countless hours and time onto that champion and a lot of the time have better knowledge than Riot on that champion specifically. This doesn't mean they are an expert in game balance, but it also doesn't mean Riot knows the best direction either it's not like they are some God we should just all bow down to and accept their word as truth, they too make mistakes and as a community we should be allowed to respectfully criticize and brainstorm.
Destínum2 votesYou are correct that we are allowed to criticize, but I just feel like it leaves the point of critique too often, and just goes into "I'm scared of change".
I'm not saying Riot is perfect either, but besides the Karma rework (which was still a big succes gameplay-wise, but a faliure in presserving her identity) when have Riot actually messed up with a rework? Skarner, sure I guess, although that has been fixed. I personally can't come up with anyone else.
12tales1 votesI'd argue that the Kassadin rework didn't necessarily do as much as it could have to deal with what made him such a dominant pick. Removing the Silence was a step in the right direction, but keeping the massive AoE slow and the 3 second cooldown flash-that's-better-than-flash left him at a point where he's either stifling to play against, or useless, depending on where his numbers are at any given time.
Not that that was a huge fuck up, mind you - he's certainly in a better place than he was before the rework - but I don't think the rework was a complete success, either. Also, the communication while the rework was in progress was pretty lackluster.
Destínum2 votesHe still wasn't completely balanced when the rework went live, but reworks are supposed to fix a champion in the longrun, not short term. Now when he's had follow up balance changes, I'd say he's actyally in a good spot.
12tales1 votesHe's certainly not too powerful, but I dunno how great his actual kit is. I think that the decision to keep both Force Pulse and Riftwalk kinda forced Riot to put massive restrictions on both abilities, instead of preserving one or the other. Now Kassadin's in this really awkward place where none of his skills are really relevant until they're maxed, he can't actually use his ultimate out of combat, and he basically lacks viable itemization paths - no matter how you build, you're missing something that's crucial to his ability to function.
So, he isn't a balance concern, but it still kinda sucks to play him. And if they buffed him, it'd suck to play against him instead. Not to the same degree as before the rework, but still.
YGW Caspie1 votesIt depends when you started playing League ... I remember countless Ryze reworks with a bunch of them failing. Karma rework honestly I wouldn't consider a success but I wouldn't consider it a failure either it's just kind of neutral. I do agree though that some people are just scared of change.
I've played since S1 and Riot have definitely messed up reworks and even if you look at their current record they still haven't been resoundingly successful. In fact I can't think of a rework that was successful on its first go, it almost always had to be patched and sometimes reworked again, does that mean they don't fix it eventually or get closer to where it should've been, definitely not. Riot does a fairly good job but that doesn't mean the community knowledge can't help them get to that spot quicker.
Like I said before when you have people who main a champion for countless amounts of games with hours of experience in many many situations then that knowledge if they're willing to share it can be very beneficial when considering the best routes to rework champions and overall can make their reworks MORE successful. Does that mean Riot should listen to every criticism, no because not every criticism is valid but to dismiss all points even the valid is not beneficial to the game or company.
Look at the Heimerdinger rework when it was released... it was so OP it was played top lane with hilarious success even in the professional scene and then it got nerfed to where it is now but on release his big turret did as Phreak would say "Tons of Damage". Another example would be the initial Gragas rework which most would probably consider a success in its current state but on its release it was a whole different story. Sometimes they mess up the reworked kit entirely or partially for example I think most can agree that Karma's reworked W is more or less a failure, and sometimes they do something silly like change Maokai's ult to follow him which was a great change but it was too good for teamfights and eventually they had to nerf it so it only lasted so long. Actually the more I think about reworked Karma the more I really wonder if it was successful.
EDIT: Now that I think about it what about the Lucian changes they did (the one after they nerfed his attack range) the community and even pros thought it was going to make him horrible then they realized what Riot did and he went from a great pick to a great pick but for different reasons and ended up needing to get his "removal of slows" on his e removed from his kit because of how broken his mobility was and arguably still is. Another example could be champions like Eve, Rengar, and even Twitch, Riot definitely had a bad run with reworking stealth champions.
Now I'm not saying I hate Riot or think they are doing a bad job but I am saying that they don't always know what's best for the game because they don't always know what we the players are going to do with the changes they bring. I think the biggest success they had was the rework on the support role though.
Destínum2 votesThere's a difference between a rework being a success and a rework being completely balanced at release. People didn't start playing Heimerdinger untill his VU, which was about half a year after his rework. Gragas was buffed several times after his rework because people didn't know how to play him, then he was nerfed again. Same goes for most reworked champs.
YGW Caspie1 votesI agree but that doesn't mean the community can't help them hit that mark sooner. And I did mention reworks that were also failures like Rengar for example.
Ryze also went through 3 reworks. V1.0.0.61: rework V1.0.0.111: rework V1.0.0.139: rework
Dosey1 votesheimerdinger is almost the same thing after his rework if anything they could have buffed old him and gotten the same if not better results
MrSc0tty1 votesSkarner, Yi on rework release (lol), Kassadin for sure, Rengar, Olaf, Taric with S4 support changes, Sejuani.
Sona Karma Xerath Heimer and Sivir are the success stories. There have been a lot of missteps.
Cloud Potato1 votesI can't really say there's been a rework that's put a champion in a worse spot, because the champions who have been reworked have been ones with problematic gameplay. Good old Olaf is frequently brought up, but he was undeniably broken before the gutting. I think he's in a better spot now than when he was gutted, although many would say that's not much consolation.
Speaking about Fighters in general though until the problematic ones are out of the way the reworked ones will likely have trouble fitting in; we still have Shyvana and Mundo shitting up top lane with their... balls of statsiness... and I do't know why Renekton was put up as the bar when he has a low-counterplay combo available to him. Skarner, another Fighter that got reworked, is for the most part outclassed by Vi, who is in turn outclassed by Lee Sin. There are some differences in playstyle, yes, but Vi's initiation is so fast that you'll likely end up in the same spot after ulting than Skarner would, and Lee is, well, Lee.
There are other factors at play of course, but I feel like the reworked champions will see good play eventually. But if you have a champion with a healthy playstyle, and another champion who is slightly worse but has less counterplay available, the unhealthy one will pull more weight due to having to consider their opponent less. It's just how the game is at the moment, and it will take ages to fix. I do think Riot could stand to fix things up faster, though. I don't know how many people they have working on reworks but seeing two champions each PBE cycle would be awesome. They're doing a pretty good job of it (we have Viktor and Soraka right now) but there are a few cycles with one or zero. I feel like reworks should be one of the highest priorities, but I can see people disagreeing.
YGW Caspie1 votesI feel as if the argument of whether or not Riot's reworks puts a champion in a "worst" spot is a good argument to begin with. If they did rework a champion and it ended up in a worst spot then it's as if they have learned nothing. What the goal should be is to rework a champion and have it be better, not equal or worse. I don't mean stronger either I just mean better.
Sona for me is actually in a worst state than it was before. This is obviously arguable but in my opinion the Sona rework is unhealthy for the game in a way that provides difficulty in balancing. A Shield + Heal on a fairly low CD isn't really going to ever be balanced for laning it's either going to be too strong or too weak and her small auras are in the same situation, either they are going to be really strong or really weak. Conceptually I think a condensed but visual aura is a good idea but overall I think they missed the mark by quite a bit. I think it's a little sad when the best part of that rework is just that the enemies now dance faster. I feel as if we are going to see quite a few balance changes in Sona's future. Maybe I'm wrong though and she's actually balanced right now.
And while I'm on this topic of reworks I should bring up the "utility scaling" aspect of the supports since I consider this part of the support rework and I also consider it a failure. Building AP hardly works in practical situations except on a few supports which also happen to be supports with good damage scaling and no utility scaling. Look at items that supports tend to build when they play champs with utility scaling and you'll understand what I mean. Basically utility items is better than utility scaling and the only thing that utility scaling does is just give a reason for that champ to be played mid or top.
Cloud Potato1 votesUtility scaling isn't a bad idea in theory. Shields and heals already scaled from AP before the S4 changes. But Supports (position) didn't build AP then, and they won't now. They can't afford it. Even if they could, it's easier to default to the 'my Support is good because of how strong I am without items' meta choices. It doesn't help that they're stuck buying a gold generator and a Sightstone, delaying the chance to buy real items by a lot despite the extra gold generation. Utility scaling is great for Supports not going in the SUpport position, though. We just need one who isn't a piece of shit to fight against to turn up.
I tread on eggshells talking about Sona, because a lot of her issues is how she feels to play rather than objective power, because she's one of the best teamfighting Supports in the game. Her early game sucks to compensate in a world full of Supports (position) dedicated to protecting the ADC early game with peel, which she don't have before level 6. The concept of a hypercarry Support (champion) is a cool one, but she has to fight with the reality that the ADC is more important than she is. That heal + shield is friggin' dope though. She needs to be killable with how strong that is (and she certainly is killable), and I'm not sure if I like that. But I think she's balanced at the moment, or at least close to it. But the world she lives in certainly isn't balanced.
Thanotos Omega1 votesAgreed,
Rew7111 votesI wouldn't say that these changes were seriously thought over. They more than likely saw that she had too much power for a heal and realized no champion could get pass this now. I should know, playing as and against her. Her kit is the major kit that most fear. And for this to be a 450 champ makes it all the more harder with allowing everyone to get use to her and the major help she benefits. Some things I still disapprove of, such as Udyr's stun lasting only a second when other stuns last longer. This doesn't give him enough time to change and do the damage you would like. Don't get me wrong though, I still wreck as Udyr and this could be overlooked IF they get rid of that dumb 4 seconds until they can be stunned again rule. That my friend is the dumbest thing to put on a melee champ with no ultimate.
12tales2 votes...IF they get rid of that dumb 4 seconds until they can be stunned again rule. That my friend is the dumbest thing to put on a melee champ with no ultimate.
I'm pretty sure Udyr would be by far the most powerful champion in the game's history if he was able to perma stun anybody he hit in bear stance.
Rew7111 votesi should had been pacific with that one. use to it was every 4th hit like turtle and phoenix but this has gotten ridiculous. them doing this makes him less strong but it also makes it harder for certain occasions like in the jungle and such. If they were to shorten the time as you leveled (at least -0.2 seconds per level) it would help greatly. Yasuo's E like Udyr's makes him very tricky to get but for someone like Udyr who uses mana shouldn't have this drastic block to make him a fair opponent. it makes no sense to do this to champs who become popular after serious skin releases.