Let's talk Cho'gath!

Lao Fu the Tiger·Sep 8, 2016·16 votes·9,433 views

I love the monster. Haven't played him much recently, but he does hold quite a special place in my heart, since he was one of my top picks in Season 4.

Currently, his win rate is around 48%, which in itself isn't too terribly bad, but given his relatively simple kit, isn't necessarily good either. This silence nerf certainly won't make him irrelevant at all, but does indeed further push away his viability, which is niche at best right now. Can we have some context as to future plans for the massive monster?

57 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 8, 201615 votes

We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity, feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too.

Full change list for anyone that hasn't seen it:

W - Feral Scream

Cooldown:: 13 >>> 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9
NEW:: Acquires targets post-cast rather than pre-cast (it is easier to dodge)
Range:: 585 >>> 650
Silence Duration:: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 >>> 1.5 / 1.625 / 1.75 / 1.875 / 2

Timethief49Sep 8, 20162 votes

seem justified though they kinda remind me of the nunu e changes, that made it more spamable. they didnt make him see more play but maybe he has other problems too. i hope they bring him back they i can see more ap cho profiting from low cd spells than tank cho

ProfDrDeathSep 8, 20163 votes

I think the change is essentially power-neutral between AP and tank Cho. AP Cho gets more damage with it, whereas tank Cho gets more flexibility in his silence.

Meep ManSep 10, 20161 votes

Nunu has so many problems to be honest.

TheorcheroSep 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity, feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too.

Full change list for anyone that hasn't seen it:
W - Feral Scream
Cooldown:: 13 >>> 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9

NEW:: Acquires targets post-cast rather than pre-cast (it is easier to dodge)

Range:: 585 >>> 650

Silence Duration:: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 >>> 1.5 / 1.625 / 1.75 / 1.875 / 2

Maybe you should just increase the AP ratio by 2.5 and remove the silence?

They can't cast spells if they're dead.

Hello I am BirdSep 9, 20162 votes

Isn't 2.5... Like... A lot.

Like, with 500 AP, isn't 2.5 like 1250 damage?

TheorcheroSep 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hello I am Bird,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VX4ig9BH,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2016-09-09T21:06:46.022+0000)

Isn't 2.5... Like... A lot.

Like, with 500 AP, isn't 2.5 like 1250 damage?

Yep. Remove the silence, add 2.5 ratio.

They can't cast spells if they're dead.

Except Karthus.

Hello I am BirdSep 9, 20162 votes

I LOVE IT

Lao Fu the TigerSep 8, 20161 votes

Ah, okay! I suppose I had seen the change too early, resulting in Moobeat only having the silence duration typed out.

Overall, this does look like a very fair change compared to what currently exists. Thanks!

XIII VanitasSep 8, 20164 votes

In the eventuality that he's going to be affected negatively by these changes, would it be possible to reduce the cast time of his spell?

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 201611 votes

Initial reaction is that we'd be better off putting power elsewhere. Cho's got really long cast times on all his abilities, that allows them to be much more impactful than normal though and gives him a heavy, powerful feeling that's pretty distinct.

DCYOUNG888Sep 9, 20162 votes

@Meddler, has riot been able to identify what subclass Cho'gath fits in yet? I know he's considered unique so he is not in any class atm but he does have both tank and mage qualities so what does that make him?

Dark Star ChoSep 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

@Meddler, has riot been able to identify what subclass Cho'gath fits in yet? I know he's considered unique so he is not in any class atm but he does have both tank and mage qualities so what does that make him?

I'm not meddler but one thing i've heard before is "ap juggernaut"

RiotMeddlerSep 9, 20165 votes

I can see the argument, there's a lot of rule breaking versus juggernauts there though with Rupture given the range that gives him. It's why we concluded trying to push him into a category was probably more misleading than helpful in terms of discussion about how he should be balanced.

Duke AnaxSep 9, 20161 votes

He doesn't fit into any one category, but if you want to keep every champion distinct there will be some that never will. Usually they can be described as a hybrid of two though.

In case of Cho'Gath I'd probably place him between Warden and Battle Mage.

Warden because he is steadfast and can stop people from getting past him. Battle Mage, because he stays in the fray an does AoE damage.

Photos of GhostsSep 9, 20162 votes

True for Warden, if you think about it he has many ways to defend his squishies: he deals a burst of true damage which is effective against tanky divers, his autos HURT, his Q-W is great on someone he's bodyblocking. But he can also be an assassin against squishies.

SolideusSep 9, 20161 votes

Battlemage(primary)+Juggernaut(secondary) Hybrid still seems like it'd make sense, though! Why do you think that'd also be misleading? (Burst Mage + Juggernaut is another alternative)

Photos of GhostsSep 9, 20162 votes

Because Juggernauts are short-ranged for melee and Battlemages are short-ranged for ranged. He's a melee with a HUGE Q range and pretty significant W range, but the Q is very hard to hit unless it's follow-up, which means he's not an engage tank either.

SolideusSep 9, 20161 votes

Rupture is long range, but there are other juggernauts with long-ish range abilities; Mundo, Yorick, Trundle & Nasus, Olaf. It's more powerful than most of those, but it has a similar fish-and-close-in pattern.

Battle Mages have pretty long range abilities too; Swain is the clearest analogue to Cho'Gath, Nevermove being pretty much the same thing as Rupture.

Cho is pretty much a Swain with Juggernaut-esque elements; That's why I think Battlemage-Juggernaut is the most natural subclass definition for him.

Photos of GhostsSep 9, 20161 votes

Rupture is a longer ranged, more powerful Nevermove. It's basically a very slow Malphite ult. Why don't people play the Malphite-Cho combo more?

Dark Star ChoSep 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VX4ig9BH,comment-id=0001000400000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-09T11:02:42.610+0000)

Rupture is a longer ranged, more powerful Nevermove. It's basically a very slow Malphite ult. Why don't people play the Malphite-Cho combo more?

Mobility, easy to dodge and kite, low damage when cooldowns are off, limited (possible, but limited) seine potential. Gank susceptible.

Wind WhistlerSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rupture is long range, but there are other juggernauts with long-ish range abilities; Mundo, Yorick, Trundle & Nasus, Olaf. It's more powerful than most of those, but it has a similar fish-and-close-in pattern.

Yorick doesn't have any long range abilities, really, unless you count the ghouls.

SolideusSep 10, 20161 votes

Both W and E are ranged, just a bit shorter than Rupture, and are there to catch people so he can close in on them.

TheI3igDaddySep 9, 20165 votes

I'd pray that you guys are thinking about enhancing Vorpal Spikes; Cho's got all of his power smashed into three abilities and here VP is being a second passive for him.

If you still want it to be a toggle spell, can it at least give him a benefit when turned off? I was thinking that when off, it allows him to shoot out spikes, but when on, he gets a resistance boost (i.e. spiky exterior).

Cannoli VirusSep 9, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I'd pray that you guys are thinking about enhancing Vorpal Spikes; Cho's got all of his power smashed into three abilities and here VP is being a second passive for him.

If you still want it to be a toggle spell, can it at least give him a benefit when turned off? I was thinking that when off, it allows him to shoot out spikes, but when on, he gets a resistance boost (i.e. spiky exterior).

the only point to toggling it off is so you don't draw turret aggro

Leaf of the lakeSep 9, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sheep Shearer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VX4ig9BH,comment-id=00010004000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-09T03:57:03.522+0000)

the only point to toggling it off is so you don't draw turret aggro

or if you want to freeze lane

TheI3igDaddySep 9, 20162 votes

Yes, right NOW it's like that. Yet whenever he turns his E off, nothing happens. I'd want there to be some other incentive to not have the constant spikes.

Wind WhistlerSep 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Initial reaction is that we'd be better off putting power elsewhere. Cho's got really long cast times on all his abilities, that allows them to be much more impactful than normal though and gives him a heavy, powerful feeling that's pretty distinct.

Yes! I main Cho'Gath, and I think that the changes you've made are great. I'm very satisfied with the way you've handled my favorite champion. You'd never buffed him too much, or nerfed him too hard, and he hasn't really ever been in an unbalanced state. For a 2009 champion, I think he's aged incredibly well.

It's sad to see the way his W works go, though, I do admit. One of the funniest things for me in League was to start channeling your W, then have the enemy flash away from it, only to be killed by it anyway, even though they were a mile away. It was just hilarious. I can definitely understand the changes, though. That shouldn't happen.

And to be honest, although I like having long silences, the ability to spam his W more later on in the game is a worthy tradeoff. Besides, it's still a long silence. The range buff also helps compensate for changing how it targets people.

Thank you so much for handling my main with so much care.

Seto KaibaSep 15, 20161 votes

THEN KEEP THEM POWERFUL!

DeathBurstSep 9, 20161 votes

Speaking of old champs and clarity, I'm a bit surprised to see Grievous Wounds introduced back in a Champion's kit -- namely, Mundo's cleavers.

What's the reasoning about this one?

Wind234Sep 9, 20161 votes

Interesting changes. Cho'Gath's the first champ I really picked up and the first one I got mastery 5 with, so he's pretty special to me. Though, I also know that Cho'Gath is up for a rework at some point. Is that going to be a full VGU like Poppy, Taric and Yorick, or a smaller change like with a roster project? And if possible, could we get a glimpse into what's likely to be changed?

Toa of DeathSep 9, 20162 votes

Any chance you could fix his Q up a bit?

2nd ChanceSep 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity, feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too.

Full change list for anyone that hasn't seen it:
W - Feral Scream
Cooldown:: 13 >>> 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9

NEW:: Acquires targets post-cast rather than pre-cast (it is easier to dodge)

Range:: 585 >>> 650

Silence Duration:: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 >>> 1.5 / 1.625 / 1.75 / 1.875 / 2

I really don't mean to de-track this too much, but I may be allowed to ask you this still?

If Cho'gath is still allowed to have a 2 second AOE silence, why can't Garen at least have a 2 second Q silence back of his own considering that is his only CC?

Many other juggernauts have multiple CCs (ex. Darius having his E pull and W slow, Skarner with his E-autoattack combo stun CC and his ultimate, Gnar with multiple CCs of slows stuns and even an AOE displacement), yet Garen is only allowed his silence.

If having a 2 second silence is too much on him, would it possible to add something else instead?

For an example of something else other than just giving him another CC of sorts for the sake of having another, I've been thinking about is allowing him to have Frozen Mallet apply to his E spin. That way he wouldn't get a buff power spike all through-out every part of the game making him out-right stronger, and its gated by the purchase of the item. At the same time as well, it gives him another item option to build and would fit his core build very well.

Photos of GhostsSep 9, 20161 votes

Gnar is just an engage tank with a marksman/skirmisher secondary form, he's DEFINED by CC in Mega Gnar, he just can't i any way be considered a jiggernaut. And for Skarner they said that they messed up by trying to make him a Juggernaut and he's never really been one and still isn't.

WoonStruckSep 9, 20161 votes

Skarner with a 3-hit requirment stun CC and his ultimate

Skarner lost the 3-hit requirement with his update.

Sad that even a diamond player hasn't seen him enough to realize that.

2nd ChanceSep 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Skarner lost the 3-hit requirement with his update.

Sad that even a diamond player hasn't seen him enough to realize that.

I've been playing longer than you and forget things about champs that don't get played as much, gimme a break

I edited it

WoonStruckSep 10, 20161 votes

Was basically just a comment on Riot's failure to execute on Skarner, not your lack of attentiveness.

Lord DesertSep 9, 20163 votes

As someone who loves the Omnomnom of LoL, I think the pre- to post-cast change is like a dance on a blade. Cho basicly does a) Q random at enemy -> running towards them and W when theyre in range to stopp them from using escapes etc. and then Omnomnoming them after we closed the last small gap. OR b) W first and then a much safer Q and then Omnomnom them. If this change goes throu, i think the first combo will simply impossible to do, since everybody has flash or maybe an escape. They may get slowed pretty nice after a Q hit, but cho will never be able to catch someone only running towards them if they got hit by a max range Q.

The "Stats" shift like low cd, bigger range equals the silence nerf, but if the silence keeps the same "speed" this will be a huge nerf in my eyes, because now cho cant reliable "cc lock" them for long enough to get in range for is R. A "small" fix would be simply to increase the visual effect/speed of the silence. That would be the easiest thing in my eyes. But if you want MORE counterplay then there already is in chos kit, i think that would seriously destroy him, hes already super hard/bad in high elo, because of his mega huge cast times, with easily dodgable Q if you just have tier 1 boots, No threat after 1 combo use for ~8 sec. and no escapes/gapclosers.

If youre in for some more changes/updates read further if not you can stop here

I will try a diffrent format this time, starting with the TL;DR

Passiv

1,5x of the mana values/refund
doubled, if a champion, cannon minion, big monster is killed

Q,Rupture

more skillbased, bigger circle but 2 circles total. 2 versions a) normal circle + extra circle around. extra circle does not knock up, only slow OR only half the duration of knockup and slow but same dmg. normal/inner circle can be a bit smaller if wanted b) "normal" circle smaller, but longer knockup(1,5sec)/more dmg, "outer" circle a bit bigger then the original circle range but only half the knockup&dmg
casttime reduced by R rank!
circle range increased by R or E rank.

W, Feral Scream

visual speed update
lower cd and lower duration ok, but post cast effect seems to risky

E, Vorpal Spikes

passiv AS buff/ level/rank
25%/50% vs minions
toggle to defensiv, mini thornmail/+Ar&Mr/ flat dmg reduc (those changes are really powerfull! carefull balancing needed!)

R, OMNOMNOM(seriously, the name needs to be changed to Omnomnom xD)

no changes needed, pretty powerfull but its also keept in check by other his abilitys and the loss of stacks if killed.

A quick reminder, not everything needs to be used/implemented, this is just a pool of ideas! But if most of them are used, there will be a need to lower his base dmg a little, in most cases. The Intenton is not to just buff/overbuff Cho, but to improve his gameplay/viablity in higher Elo a bit. And with all the kitting/mobility and %hp/Ar reduction hes in a pretty weak spot right now.

Some more explaination

**Passiv: **

The heal feels good, specially at early levels, but the mana is a joke. As someone who has 90/70-110/100 mana costs and having the 15th lowest level 1 mana pools, and again the 15th lowest level 18 mana reg. is pretty hard. To get 1 Q refunded, with the lev18 mana refund we need to kill 12 minions... (>24 minions in the early game....). You see that thoose numbers are a joke. Defnitly needs improvment!

Q, Rupture

The total cast time of ~1,2 sec is pretty huge for his bread and butter skill, but we cant lower it that much without atleast halving the dmg. It may be possible to make it more "skill" reliant too. making it bigger in total but having less dmg/knockup at the outer circle, somewhat like AAtroxs Q.

But we could also improve it by making its range slighly bigger with his E or R rank! (but the "bigger" circle can be less effectiv like only half the knockup/dmg etc.)

Or we can shorten his casttime a bit with every rank in his R, because everyone has/gets boots which makes it even harder to hit his Q so if we reduce the casttime later in the game its seems fair to me! right now everyone can simple run out of his circle, whitout even trying to dogde it...

His E, Vorpal Spikes

Its an onhit effect which only gets +15 dmg per level... ok this may sound super bad but its an aoe onhit so it may be borderline ok. BUT the big thing is that cho, HAVING AN ONE HIT EFFECT!, has the 10 lowest level 1 AS and the 20 lowest level 18 AS. As a melee, who does not buy AS items, only has an EASY to dodge "slow/knockup" his only cc, no gapclosers or ms buffs and no AS steroids..... This makes his E rubbish.

There is some huge potenital for improvement! even trying to make the toggle an agressiv vs defensiv choice, but there should be an increase in time to toggle. no instant retoggle etc.

Overall the big Omnomnom could use some changes, maybe even on the scale of a full rework, but i think a simple Update, on the scale of Leona/Sona is more then enough for my/our beloved, minion and weird moving, big minion Eater needs :D (they sometimes even taste like rocks or like fish, very suspicous O.o!)

JafarThePandaSep 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity, feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too.

Full change list for anyone that hasn't seen it:
W - Feral Scream
Cooldown:: 13 >>> 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9

NEW:: Acquires targets post-cast rather than pre-cast (it is easier to dodge)

Range:: 585 >>> 650

Silence Duration:: 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 >>> 1.5 / 1.625 / 1.75 / 1.875 / 2

nowhere does this say that the perma-bugged hitbox it has is going to be fixed.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Dark Star ChoSep 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

nowhere does this say that the perma-bugged hitbox it has is going to be fixed.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Which part of it being bugged? The missing at mele range part? Also this would eb a good time to mention that Rupture hitbox/animation mismatch.

JafarThePandaSep 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Chogath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VX4ig9BH,comment-id=0001000a0000,timestamp=2016-09-09T09:36:53.972+0000)

Which part of it being bugged? The missing at mele range part? Also this would eb a good time to mention that Rupture hitbox/animation mismatch.

That happens a lot too and sometimes people even in the diameter of the rupture box just waltz by.

here are some of the best examples I can give without a video on how shit this W is: Any moment you click any direction to move, so when he leans back then forward to do this animation, right? so he has at least a 0.5 second channel we'll call it. Any time you'd want to quickly move after casting, the W seems to whiff and do nothing at all, even while in face range. If someone is dashing, a yasuo E for example, it whiffs even in cone radius. when cho'gath gets stunned or knocked up (example being a blitz E or thresh hook) the animation cancels the moment you get hit, even if you completed the animation and it whiffs in front of whatever you're aiming at.

Dark Star ChoSep 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That happens a lot too and sometimes people even in the diameter of the rupture box just waltz by.

here are some of the best examples I can give without a video on how shit this W is: Any moment you click any direction to move, so when he leans back then forward to do this animation, right? so he has at least a 0.5 second channel we'll call it. Any time you'd want to quickly move after casting, the W seems to whiff and do nothing at all, even while in face range. If someone is dashing, a yasuo E for example, it whiffs even in cone radius. when cho'gath gets stunned or knocked up (example being a blitz E or thresh hook) the animation cancels the moment you get hit, even if you completed the animation and it whiffs in front of whatever you're aiming at.

That goes largely into the cast, at the moment it marks the target immediately when you press the button, if the target enters the cone afterwords it doesn't hit (by design of the skill) The only true bugs atm are it missing at mele range (the cone starts further then your hitbox) and it completely missing after you dash or flash or if you dash or flash (protobelt as example) after casting but before damage application.

Both of these, or at the very atleast the second, should be fixed with this rework to the skill as there were identical issues with pre-rework darius pull which had the same conic cast as well as bugs.

Champion SkinSep 9, 20164 votes

While it might feel unfair... Doesn't it also serve to equalize mobile and immobile champions? Since immobile champions are unlikely to be able to avoid the W regardless of the delay... While mobile champions are now likely to be able to avoid the W

I guess you want Cho'gath to be weaker against mobile champions??

Seto KaibaSep 15, 20161 votes

Power neutral or buff biggest function/utility nerf cho could get

If you are talking about "clarity, unfairness and limited counterplay", then remove his 1.4+ second total cast+aftercast animations into snappy 0.05 ala yasuo, remove his stack system for flat permanent hp steal on R and make his e be more than 0.7th of a spell.

Dark Star ChoSep 9, 20165 votes

I feel his power is on point but small non-damage adjustments are necessary before power adjustments. Any of the following (or combination of) would help quite a bit.

5 ms (mobility creep issue as well as aiding jungle cho'gath)
5 mana per level lower on W (or lower early and ramp upto current costs)
Yet more R work. Perhaps lowering health or base damage to champions in favor of tenacity at 2 4 and 6 stacks.
Gain ms towards target knocked up by Q (even if we miraculously hit a gnar, riven, ezreal and so on we still can't gapclose unless we have ludens and protobelt on live)
50 Autoatatck range added on E (would aid in minion block, encourage players to keep e on and not freeze, as well as promote a more tanky/figher style then ap)
Make Q slow feel relevant (aid in mobility creep and could encourage liadries builds and q maxes over silence)

Cho'gath is already a ball of stats yet is still unique enough he doesn't need a rework, so many patches of him have focused on his Ultimate which, to be honest, is the least useful skill on an immobile champion with no gapcloser. Being a bit more creative in changes to him and eliminating any of the countless weaknesses he has would greatly modernize the champion while not becoming overbearing.

Edit: Additional thought, he is currently being out bullied and traded in every role, the silence change will hurt his 1v1 potential even further. His winrate atm is highest pre 28 yet this change benefits his team fighting (nerfing what he is good at will be a net wr decrease yet atleast feel better in the teamfight department)

Edit 2: W unreliability also further increases lord doms, botrk, and blood razor potential on him as he, once again, can less reliably peel off champions such as kindred, ezreal, tristana, vayne, and even zed (potential cause for 4 base armour or armour per level increase?)

Champion SkinSep 9, 20163 votes

Actually his W change might help his laning slightly as it will have a lower cooldown and it is Cho main harass tool... though it is also heavily mana gated and it will of course be a lot weaker against mobile champions so yeah it might just end up weaker overall

ZT XperimentorSep 10, 20162 votes

I think he's fine as is; but mostly from riot overdoing any change they attempt, then ignoring any feedback on it until it's too late.

UnbornHereticSep 9, 20161 votes

I think Cho of this sort of niche pick against combo champions. Combo champs can usually easily fall prey to his silence and/ or his rupture while his autoattacks finish them off or he uses his ultimate.