Why are people getting upset over Domination being made more accessable to Mages?

Eedat·May 8, 2018·44 votes·12,220 views

Lots of Mages want Electrocute and some even want Predator. Ultimate Hat is barely used because its overshadowed by the majority of stuff in Sorcery. I'm confused why moving it to Domination to give Mages a better path in the tree is such a terrible thing. Also considering how most people feel forced into Sorcery. No assassin would EVER give up Sudden Impact for it.

Like I just really am having a hard time understanding this. Are people missing the point? This isnt a nerf at all. Its a buff to give Mages more options

EDIT: Another point I was think is that Ultimate Hat is overshadowed by Manaflow Band. By moving it to Domination, Mages now have access to both. You can take Domination primary or secondary and now have access to both

88 Comments

Quiet DudeMay 8, 201837 votes

When has the boards not been upset by change? That’s the real question.

IcyPepperMay 8, 20188 votes

Isn't that just human nature?

Quiet DudeMay 8, 201810 votes

It was a rhetorical question. Which you answered with a rhetorical question. So well played.

IcyPepperMay 9, 201810 votes

adjusts monocle

warpenguin555May 8, 201817 votes

Because Sorcery is already trash and Ultimate Hat's replacement isn't good on mages

EedatMay 8, 20189 votes

Sorcery isnt trash. I just doesnt feel right on a good chunk of Mages. So I'll ask again, why is giving these Mages that dont synergize the best with Sorcery access to Domination a bad thing?

warpenguin555May 8, 20183 votes

It's not, most of my anger's towards Nimbus Cloak anyway. Ulti hunter's a pretty good way to open up the hunter line, I just wish we weren't getting Nimbus Cloak to add on to the lack of mage synergy problem in Sorcery

AzadetheMay 8, 20182 votes

Name a mage who does better under a Sorcery Keystone than under a Domination. Don't know too many who can't proc Electrocute. Anivia maybe?

EedatMay 8, 20184 votes

Any of them that can spam out poke do just fine with it. Electrocute is a bigger chunk but its a much longer CD and much harder to proc compared to Aery or Comet

AzadetheMay 8, 20181 votes

It's really not hard to proc at all on most champs, and more importantly, the proc always hits, vs:

Aery often being used as a shield, taking away from offensiveness, and not favoring champs who can't chase/gap closer. Almost never results in a kill and very rarely ever results in recalls. The damage is usually mitigated by lane farming.

Comet has a high chance of missing if the skill is not a slow. Hardly ever results in a kill, and farming often mitigates damage.

Electrocute's cooldown reduces with level.....

Aery does 1/3 Electrocute's damage. Takes 3 times as many hits just to get the damage.

Comet does about half its damage.

EedatMay 8, 20187 votes

It actually still is MUCH harder to proc that aery and comet. Aeries cooldown is far less than electrocutes. You can easily proc it more than 3 times before electrocute comes back up. Hell, DoT mages or anyone with Liandry proc it twice per spell. Thats why champs that have slows take Comet and others take Aery. I'm sorry but you're just being really salty at this point and ignoring reason. Comet and Aery are both fine and have their places. Electrocute is good for all in champs

D357R0Y3RMay 9, 20181 votes

you can proc aery at least 5 times before electrocute comes back up

electrocute cd in early game is 50 sec

Akali is SO HOTMay 8, 20185 votes

Comet and Aery are good on a lot of mages that like to poke during the laning phase or have abilities that guarantee comet will hit.

Modl Ryden lMay 8, 20188 votes

I think we oughta do a daily reminder that each set of rune trees and their keystones aren't exclusive to any class.

Mages mains acting like they're being robbed of features.

SaiannaMay 9, 20185 votes

After waves and waves of nerfs for Mages no wonder we are hissy. No other class came even close to this sorry state. And we were treated pretty much like disposable trash several times already. Just have in mind I'm aware that some mages do good or better, but they usually have strong, reliable abilities that allow them to work with crappy items. Also mage-assassins were treated rather favourably.

The thing is: instead of making this rune viable for mages, Riot decided to rob us from the mage-related rune, which is now made for wider audience (which is good). But then.. Mages once again lost something. Why not rework it with Mages as main target?

Riot seriously has a mega hard boner for mage-trashing right now.

DisembarkMay 9, 20181 votes

Except all I ever see is mages bitch? Even when the AP item rework came, which ONLY buffed mages, it “wasn’t enough” even though it made a lot of mages straight fucking OP.

Seriously, we started seeing Ryze vs Cassio top in competitive because of how busted archangels was.

When mages dominate mid lane for 4 seasons it’s “ok”, but assassins can’t even get 2 fucking patches before I see a whine storm about them.

SaiannaMay 9, 20183 votes

Except all I ever see is mages bitch?

Cause mages are the class that gets hit the most often with class-wide nerfs?

which ONLY buffed mages

Hell it didn't. The AP item rework did 4 things:

Force some mages into supports
Rework and inbalance some mages (malzahar)
Make AP items worse (rylai/Zhyona/liandry/roa), more expensive, less cost efficient
Add support items that further increased/powercreeped ADC

Just fyi, there were some mages that did good, or better, because they have inherently stronger kits that can work in shitty enviroment. Ap assassins were hardly affected aswell, but pure mages got shat on.

I keep an eye on what Riot does with mages and I can tell you one thing. It's downward slope of nerfs and cutting corners.

When mages dominate mid lane for 4 seasons it’s “ok”

Where else can they go? Riot pushed them from jungle, they can't top and in the end of the day they still get pwned by an assassin with 2-3 working braincells. Go Bot? Well they are already there on a leash, protecting ADCs. Their power budget decreases every update. Soon they'll be no more than utility-bots. A secondary-support type. Some even build that way now. "dominate mid" my ass.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 9, 20181 votes

Before you spew so much shit how about you try playing toplane as an old style bruiser and then be glad mages are what they are.

SaiannaMay 9, 20182 votes

So hate on mages because old bruisers aren't up for the task?

If I spew so much shit, then you must be the main shit businessman in EUW lol

Btw what does TOPLANE and BRUISERS have anything to do with MAGES from MIDLANE? You get ganked by them? How about start using wards? Cause getting killed by mages nowadays is embarrassing.

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 20187 votes

People are getting upset cuz if u want ultimate hat now u have to take sorce and domination, u cant now take any other runes like P of mind for mana, inspiration or bone plating

EedatMay 8, 20188 votes

But if everyone wanted ultimate hat, why does almost nobody actually use it?

Step Sis LuxMay 8, 20186 votes

most of mages are playing with his, especially if we are looking in our games(Most people here are silver or lower), not probuilds and etc

DuskDaUmbreonMay 8, 20183 votes

Simple fact is that, no, not many people used it.

It's simply out-shone by Manaflow. Manaflow is simply a superior rune to it in most cases.

Also, tradeoffs exist. You give up mana to get more damage, simple as that.

ProfirixMay 8, 20184 votes

After the mana-flow changes the entire row of runes are trash, especially with the Nimbus Cloak change coming.

EedatMay 8, 20187 votes

I checked a bunch of sites that use Plat+ data and the vast majority of Mages take Manaflow Band over Ultimate Hat. Its not even a remotely close comparison. By moving Ultimate Hat to Domination, you can now take Ultimate Hat AND Manaflow Band

OleandervineMay 8, 20182 votes

Yeah, but most players aren't Plat+. Most players are Silver and under, or hell, unranked. You can't make assumptions about rune popularity based on what the number crunching pros pick.

AzadetheMay 8, 20182 votes

Because most mages are being played as support, not Mid. Support uses Manaflow band because they don't have Mana sustain if they miss skills (common with minion waves)

EedatMay 8, 20183 votes

Because most mages are being played as support, not Mid.

No they arent lol

AzadetheMay 8, 20183 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Tell me how many mages you see in top play in mid.

In top 10: 4.

At least 28% of all mid play is not a mage, but rather an Assassin, or an AP mage. (They also enjoy the largest ban rate)

There are 43 documented mids. 8 Get less than 1% play. 26 are less than 2% play. 32 are less than 3% Play. 39 are less than 4% play.

4 are above it.

There are 28 Mages There are 9 Assassins There are 6 Abnormal Auto attack based mids.

Thus, this is an unfair argument on its face.

However, of the 4 who beat 4% Pick rates, 3 are either assassins or an abnormal auto attack:

Leblanc Zed Yasuo

Of the 11 who beat 3% pick rate,

5 are Assassins, 2 Abnormal Auto attack, and 4 are mages:

Leblanc Zed Fizz Ekko Katarina Yasuo TwistedFate Ahri Lux Vladimir Zoe

So.... all in all.... you're right that Mages mid more than others.

But, that's heavily misleading, because the majority of all mid champs ARE mages and Assassins/Abnormals are getting picked more often than any of them.

EedatMay 8, 20184 votes

Out of the top 25 most played mids, 18 of them are mages.

TwistedFate is absolutely a mage btw

AzadetheMay 8, 20182 votes

Whatever you say. 1% pick champs are more influential picks than 5% pick champs. yup.

P.S.. over 1/2 of TF's damage comes from auto attacking. It's ignorant to call him a mage. He doesn't just throw Q's.

Have Riot put out ~ 20 more Assassin mids and see how many mages get played more than assassins.

EedatMay 8, 20184 votes

No its not. His W is an abilty that does magic damage and scales off AP. Lich bane is an AP item that scales off AP. His E is an abilty that scales off AP. He is beyond any shadow of a doubt a Mage

CosnirakMay 9, 20181 votes

AP scaling and items do not make a champion a mage on their own. Katarina Kaisa Mordekaiser and so on. I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with TF being a mage. I think he's a bit of an oddball and it depends on exact definitions and his exact build and playstyle that game, ect. But I think it's pretty clear that it isn't, 'he scales with AP and builds AP therefor is a mage.'

5301May 9, 20182 votes

What would you say TF is then, a marksman? An assassin? He's definitely none of those... His kit is most comparable to that of a mage even though his is an old design

TF doesn't have the DPS and safety of a marksman and the mobility and early game of (mid laner) assassins. He scales much differently than either of these classes. He has burst, which is what mages have had for a while, utility similar to other mages (as opposed to supports, who have more utility) and the playstyle of a champion that zones other squishy champions. Sounds like a mage...

Shaco's damage and Rengar's damage is mostly all autos and their only consistent damage spell is their Es, but other assassins burst comes mostly from spells. Does that make them not assassins? Orianna has a shield and CCs, much like other supports. Her damage is AOE and zones well, much like Brand and Zyra. Does that mean she's a support?

The correct answer to these is no. TF's kit may dip in a little bit into other classes qualities, but that does not mean he is one of them

AzadetheMay 9, 20181 votes

As I said..... he's an irregular auto attacker. Pick a Card, E are both auto attack initiated, and his R's entire purpose is to get close enough to get in those auto attacks. In Summoner's rift he rarely ever gets to spam Q, much less hit with it.

Some champs don't actually fit a label.

What would you call Kennen ?

P.S. I also consider Yasuo an irregular because he doesn't fit fighter dynamics, OR assassin dynamics. He has a unique play style.

ProfirixMay 8, 20187 votes

Ultimate Hat may have been specific to certain champs, but it was a very usable rune that clearly benefited champions with powerful ultimates. Since they moved it to Domination, and stuck it in Bounty Hunter of all places, your chance of utilizing it fully is very low (you have to kill all 5 enemy champions) if your team is not doing well.

Its replacement, Nimbus Cloak is frankly just a bad version of Phase Rush. Use your ultimate and get an extremely short-lived movement speed boost. Most mages will have no use for this mastery. Frankly some of the only champions I can see really benefiting from this is Rakan or Taric . This is clearly a support rune for hard engages.

EedatMay 8, 20187 votes

Probably because Nimbus Cloak is a Rune and Phase Rush is a Keystone. There are a ton of champs that will love this new rune but dont want Phase Rush

OleandervineMay 8, 20185 votes

Why have phase rush at all if they're adding "phase rush lite?" Nimbus Cloak is pretty bad, and doesn't make sense in a tree that WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR MAGES TO BEGIN WITH. Mages don't want to go to domination because SORCERY was supposed to be their tree.

AzadetheMay 8, 20182 votes

because they work together. Nimbus is Flat move speed. Phase is %. In other words, Phase is more effective with it.

DoozkuMay 9, 20181 votes

Just because the tree was meant for mages doesn't mean other classes can't use it. I don't see many ADCs wanting to spec into tenacity for their runes but alas, that's in the Precision tree.

OleandervineMay 9, 20181 votes

That's true, but Tenacity isn't consuming a 3rd of the Precision tree. Movespeed runes have consumed a Keystone in Phase Rush, now Nimbus Cloak, and it already had Celerity and Water Walking in Sorcery. That's now a rune at every level of Sorcery devoted to a stat that mages don't particularly need to be mages. Movespeed is suited more for roaming assassins.

ZackTheWaffleManMay 8, 20181 votes

Talon Fiddlesticks might be able to use it.

IfnethMay 9, 20184 votes

Oh, wait, I can have both Manaflow Band and Ultimate Hat?

Taliyah : Time to shake things up!

AzadetheMay 8, 20182 votes

Overshadowed by Manaflow Band/Nullfying Orb? Lmfao. The only players using either were 1) Supports who spam mana inefficiently and 2) Champs who have high mana costs like Ornn .

And it's not that we're upset with Domination being mage accessible.

The problem is it's ALREADY accessible, and they are moving all Sorcery's strengths over to it.

70% of players Diamond + use Electrocute already. It is by FAR the best Keystone for sealing kills.

Comet and Aery are "nice" but they RARELY ever impact anything other than being an inconvenience. Laners hit by them just farm/heal to get back into it. Electrocute almost ALWAYS occurs when trying to land a kill/ensure a kill.

You have no idea how many of my Morgana kills come from going through my whole combo on one champ, and then auto attacking a second and killing them with Electrocute on Q + a couple auto attacks. They don't expect it, have calculated that all my abilities are down, and just..... keep fighting, only to have that third hit knock them for 300-400 damage.

Relentless Hunter has been a mage's go to rune since in came out, due to its out of combat status vs the fact aoes don't all trigger combat, and length of cc's. If you are a mage and don't have Relentless Hunter, you die on average 2-3 more times a game than someone who does. It's arguably more important than any other rune (ofc Inspiration Magical Footwear users will disagree, but same principle).

You're right that Manaflow + Ultimate hat opens new doors, but it also essentially locks users out of other rune trees. You pretty much MUST go Sorcery/Domination to pull that off now, when in many situations, you need Ultimate hat + Resolve or + Precision.

And there's only a handful of mages who actually need Manaflow Band. I've played all these without it and done fine: Morgana Nami Sona Zoe Zyra Veigar Velkoz Malzahar Karma

There's other ways to get mana, and most champs just aren't expensive enough to need it. The ONLY champs I've played that seem to need Mana sustain, are Ornn Lux , because they have insanely high costs (and They've been bringing Lux's down) The rest generally don't have many problems once they have 1-2 items. item 3010 item 3028 item 3070 generally ensure that.

EedatMay 8, 20183 votes

Well you can say its not overshadowed all you want but I've checked multiple different sites and manaflow band is run on the vast majority of mages by a landslide over UH. Sorry, hard data is way more useful than the opinion of one person

AzadetheMay 9, 20181 votes

It's run because of a disillusion that Mana matters....

Most champs who take it, don't even NEED it. The ones who find it beneficial, it's actually usually "Supplemental" and gives them a little while between recalls.

For example: Nami Morgana Sona Soraka Zyra Zilean Ziggs Xerath Velkoz Rakan Lulu Malzahar Karma Kassadin Gragas Fizz Fiddlesticks Evelynn Ahri

None of them actually NEED it.

They could go Nullifying Orb, but most games are averaging 3 + AD champs, so why pick it? It's a niche pick to begin with, and most games don't pick it even though it's a winning pick.

They could go Ultimate hat, and many of them actually have a better win rate with it. But..... they don't because they like to rush non or no sustain mana items like item 3089 item 3285 item 3152 item 3100 item 3165 item 3151 item 3157

In the consideration of the supports: Mana Regen is simply not as strong as mana refund or mana pool totals in regards to sustaining a pool. item 3504 item 3174 item 3107 are frequently bottoming out, simply because they don't raise the base mana. Builds that go into item 3070 item 3802 and gaining kills...... recalling and purchasing..... just sustains mana more.

You're really comparing 2 runes, not three. And people are simply choosing the comfort one over the smart one. Which is why 55% of the population is in ...... Silver.