This Is a Good Opportunity For a Small Buff to Rabadon's

Meep Man·Nov 26, 2016·74 votes·2,852 views

Now that Rylai's is getting nerfed and Mages are going to have overall less AP, I think this is a good opportunity for a small buff to Rabadon's to make it a better item to purchase since currently it is an overall weaker item statistics wise when compared to other items.

Rabadon's Deathcap Ability Power: 120 -> 125 Build Recipe changed to: + + from + + (Combine Cost reduced to 850 from 1265)

It's just a small buff that makes it a little easier to build, removing that horrid combine cost gap it has while also giving it a tiny more AP.

65 Comments

5000000000000000Nov 27, 201610 votes

As a non mage main, what's the point of getting Rabadon's over Void Staff? I thought Void Staff was better for damage than Rabadon's at almost all points of the game. Is it basically just another damage multiplier on top of Void Staff? Raw AP is better for utility scaling and not so much for damage, right?

Meep ManNov 27, 20165 votes

When you are Veigar

kile147Nov 27, 20161 votes

Or Viktor, since he gets 180 AP from his passive/item.

RisenDarkKnightNov 27, 201619 votes

It depends a lot on the champ and how much MR the enemy team has. If you already have sorc shoes, liandrys, and mpen runes, you already do true damage to squishies if they didn't build MR items, so void is useless for you so you should get deathcap. On the other hand, if you are going lucidity boots or the enemy team is building a lot of MR, void is much better than deathcap.

At high elo, where enemies usually itemize MR appropriately, void is usually better (that's why you see it more than deathcap in LCS), but in low elo where you often see comps with no tank at all, deathcap is usually better.

LankPantsNov 27, 20164 votes

On the other hand, if you are going lucidity boots or the enemy team is building a lot of MR

Sorcer's shoes make Void staff stronger due to the way how magic pen stacks unless you reduce your enemies MR below your flat pen amount with Void. Void applies first and reduces enemy MR before the flat pen and every point of MR gives less raw durability than the last so your Sorcs end up hitting more valuable MR with a higher % reduction.

Against a target with 42MR void gives 0pen: 8.15% increased damage 11pen: 9.64% increased damage 26pen: 12.51% increased damage

This is why people at high elo tend to itemise Void Staff, it has nothing to do with people building high MR, Void Staff is also better against squishies.

Void plus NLR costs 3900 gold, within 100 gold of Deathcap. Those two items give 140 AP, 20 more than Deathcap before it's passive, around 20 less than a naked Deathcap. At best the Deathcap passive is giving you +70 AP in the mid game, 70 AP isn't going to be a 12.51% increase to your damage, ever, for anyone. There's an argument for Deathcap over Void on Veigar and only Veigar because he likely gets more than 70 AP from it.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20161 votes

archangel users usually have an excess of 80 AP from their mana pool actually.

Also it's good to get both, and deathcap is a good last/second last item while void staff is a second - fourth item

LankPantsNov 27, 20161 votes

archangel users usually have an excess of 80 AP from their mana pool actually.

Archangel users will never even consider Deathcap over Void, just because of who they are. If you're building AAS you're a sustained damage champ and if you're a sustained damage champ you really need pen.

Also it's good to get both, and deathcap is a good last/second last item while void staff is a second - fourth item

Void is good at any time, Deathcap is questionable at any time. Even as a last item you can question whether the damage is significant enough to buy it over a Luden's, which gives bonus MS which is often times more valuable than just more damage.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20163 votes

Luden's is definitely lower damage than Deathcap, it's meant to be a mid game item to assist roaming.

Lots of champions that specialize in waveclear also tend to be bad with Luden's as it's wasted on the minion wave most of the time.

If the enemy team is building MR, I understand getting Void staff but most Archangel users don't get void staff as sorcerer's + Liandries gives 30, which most ranged champions have unless they specifically itemize against you (usually sacrificing a slot where BT or PD would go for ADCs to get Maw, and long range mages can't even build abyssal scepter). DCap is good when you're the main source of magic damage and the ADC can kill the tank him/herself easily, it's the mid laner's job to destroy the back line regardless of whether they have sustained damage or not. Even from runes, every 1 MR glyph is 1 AP glyph less, and is negated by mpen marks which is why AP MR glyph pages are reserved to be against AP assassins who have their kill pressure early.

And then there's champions like Orianna and Vel'koz who tend to have scaling for things other than magic damage.

NineTailedMysticNov 27, 20162 votes

Deathcap is equal to Infinity Edge, as Void Staff is to Last Whisper. I'd much rather have 700 AP vs no MR targets than 400-500 AP and 35% pen

LankPantsNov 27, 20162 votes

You won't have a 200 AP advantage with a Deathcap. Voidstaff is 1.15k gold cheaper, incidentally NLR is 1.25k gold. You can realistically give the person with Voidstaff a NLR, so the difference is likely to be about 130 AP with the numbers your suggesting.

The minimum realistic MR anyone VS a mage will have is 42, that's base plus MR blues. You should have 26 flat pen on the majority of mages. When you have 26 flat pen and you're hitting a target with 42 MR Void increases your damage by 12.5%.

We're also talking about a fairly late game mage here, so they're likely to have base damages in the range of 1.2K. With those numbers you need ratios of about 2.6 before Deathcap becomes better against a squishy target. Which you may have on some high end burst mages, but is it really worth the giant drop in damage VS tankies for a small increase in damage VS squishies.

Void is almost always a better item.

NineTailedMysticNov 27, 20163 votes

Or, they're best in conjunction.

And it still doesn't resolve the issue that Dcap is a chore to build.

Nathaniell1Nov 27, 20161 votes

Lets take your 42 MR stats and 26 penetration With Rabadon = 13.8% reduction (100/116) With void staff = cca 1% reduction base dmg 750 - lets assume 300 dmg ult + 250 dmg Q and 200 dmg W and + 2.0 AP scaling

morelo 100 rylai 100 50 AP from runes/masteries hourglass 70 void staff 80 NLR 60 460 AP total dmg=750+920=1670*0,99=1653 VS morelo 100 rylai 100 50 AP from runes/masteries hourglass 70 Rabadon 120 AP 595 total

750 + 1190=1940 * 0.86 = 1668

Well.. looks kinda same to me

LankPantsNov 27, 20161 votes

If it's the same then Void is winning out huge. The target can always buy an item like QSS or Abyssal to increase their MR or in some cases you'll be hitting a tankier target. Why would you go Deathcap in a case where it's the same against a minimum MR target? It needs to be far better to justify it.

notmebuthimNov 27, 20161 votes

Tanks you get item 3135 squishy you get item 3089

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 27, 20166 votes

or you get both

TotalJerkNov 28, 20161 votes

Void staff is like the old last whisper in that at a certain point its efficient against everyone.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 27, 20162 votes

Overall you can say voidstaff is always better unless you have high AP ratios and low bases.

DasCabbageManNov 28, 20161 votes

Scalings have a large play in it. Utility mages like penetration.

VesemirNov 27, 20161 votes

If you play Veigar etc.. Rabadon is your core.

SaiannaNov 27, 20161 votes

Someone said that if you play against anyone with at least 60 MR or more, then void staff becomes cost efficient. Anyone below = not really.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20164 votes

I think CDR should be added into DCap lol

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20168 votes

Get out.

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20161 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/qeA0jZAlsCHAI/giphy.gif

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20161 votes

http://www.silverdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/exit-get-out.gif

Sire HippingtonNov 27, 20164 votes

I think rabbadons already gives enough ap, i'd rather see a simple price reduce on it and some more ap(and price increase if needed) across other items.

AthronNov 27, 20163 votes

I think the problem with deathcap is the fact it's just raw stats till u get the item and it's a very expensive one so it doesnt feel like getting it early seems that wise cuz it takes too long and then what lead u had could fall off cuz u didnt have any powerspike in items, raw ap is still good but a bonus is what im hinting at, unlike broken ad items how they give you good bonuses out of the components (phage, dirk, sheen, recurves bow, hexdrinker etc).

So why can't we get something similar for ap's? I understand ap/ad are completely different, but just something like making a new component item for deathcap with a bonus being something like, increases total ap by 10% or 15%? that way it wont feel like a huge item to grind.

Thoughts?

DivewingNov 27, 20163 votes

This is literally the last item I get one Azir and unless the game goes 45+ minutes, i normally dont end up getting it at all. It's such a horrid build path and cost that it's honestly not worth building over voidstaff, which then makes it the last item to build which takes forever and is so useless until completed because it's just a stat stick.

If it could have some mini-rabadons to build out of THAT would go miles towards making me feel better about it.

Who Feeded YouNov 27, 20163 votes

but this makes no sense...

item 1058 + item 1026 + = 140 AP ?

yoshi2790Nov 27, 20161 votes

Passive:

125 + 35% = 196.75 on the item alone.

Irelia BotNov 26, 20162 votes

I would argue that it should be 100 base AP and increase total AP by 40% making it a good mid to late game power boost but not the best option to rush.

Meep ManNov 27, 20163 votes

That's a potential option, but more dangerous since handling Rabadon's balance-wise is like handling a nuke. If it's not changed very carefully, it explodes in your face, similar to Nunu.

HazyCloud7Nov 27, 20162 votes

AP Itemization does not need any more AP reduction. Already lost 10 on abyssal, 30 on zhonyas, 20 on athenes, 20 on RoA, and now 25 on Rylai's just this season.

You are trying to create a solution to a non-existent problem, midlaners aren't even rushing deathcap. It's purchased as a 4th item at the earliest.

SweedishGunnerNov 27, 20162 votes

We could just not completely gut Rylais...but hey this is Riot's knee jerk reaction and it'll be another season until Rylais is balanced again.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 26, 20161 votes

well if you want to add ap to it... gotta add cost to the over all price

3800 is alot but the 125 ap plus its passive would need an over all price adjustment

maybe to 3975

Meep ManNov 26, 201615 votes

Rabadon's is already gold inefficient by itself (being 92.72% gold efficient where other completed items are commonly gold efficient by themselves), buffing it's AP provided by 5 wouldn't really rock it's world. Only items that have add things to a champion's kit they wouldn't normally have (AoE damage through Cleaver items, Armor Shred with Black Cleaver, Perma-Slow with Frozen Mallet) gold inefficient excluding their passives. Rabadon's is gold inefficient even with it's passive by itself currently.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 26, 20161 votes

but that that extra 5ap is increased by its own passive as well..

120 +35% = 120+42= 162 ap

125+35% = 125+ 44 = 169 ap

Meep ManNov 27, 201610 votes

I know, but even 7 more AP wouldn't make it stat efficient by itself, landing it closer to 97% stat efficiency.

PermabannedGarenNov 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Toast Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VUAbFFKq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-26T23:50:20.584+0000)

Rabadon's is already gold inefficient by itself (being 92.72% gold efficient where other completed items are commonly gold efficient by themselves), buffing it's AP provided by 5 wouldn't really rock it's world. Only items that have add things to a champion's kit they wouldn't normally have (AoE damage through Cleaver items, Armor Shred with Black Cleaver, Perma-Slow with Frozen Mallet) gold inefficient excluding their passives. Rabadon's is gold inefficient even with it's passive by itself currently.

Why do you think Rabadon's is gold inefficient? The other items you have bought literally increase the stats it gets you.

A typical mid laner like Orianna builds this: item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 item 3116

Counting the 30 AP from runes and masteries, this would bring her to a total of 500 AP, not counting Rabadon's passive.

Said passive would give her 175 AP. This in effect means that Rabadon's is granting her 300 AP.

This effectively makes it worth 6,525 gold.

Rabadon's is not meant to be an efficient purchase in of itself. It is meant to amplify the power of your other item's stats. That makes it a late game item.

HazyCloud7Nov 27, 20169 votes

This can't be serious. Its already 3800 gold...

Kitty ClarissaNov 27, 20161 votes

Imho buff item 3157 AP ammount by 10. buff item 3285 AP ratio by .1

that way AP can get alittle more damage Rabs is fine but its not really good to build because in assassin meta/tank item 3157 is a must if you dont wanna be picked off item 3165 / item 3174 / item 3070 too item 3158 / item 3020 / item 3009 boots of choice for mages item 3116 / item 3285 for a damage boost item 3135 when people start to build MR / item 3089 if nobody builds MR i guess.

But atm Rabs is not build on most mages since item 3116 is more cost efficent and grants you 400 hp with 100 ap. it is crowding out item 3285 item 3089 alone in the NLR section.

DivewingNov 27, 201614 votes

actually its a lot more simple than that. Deathcap is too shit to build.

It costs heaps, and you get no unique passive, or in fact any bonus at all other than stats, UNTIL completion, which is then reliant on having other items first. The other main issue is it takes so long to build that by the time you do, the other team already has at least 1 mr item, and the ap bonus % you get would be outclassed by Void Staff anyway. This basically leaves it as the literal LAST item to build, but again, it's shitty build path and horrendous cost means you have to sit on potentially up to 2500 before you can recall to finish it. Subtract 500 for every elixir you buy during this point too.

THIS is why mages have resorted to rylais. For the vast majority, their damage cannot compete with ADCs anymore, and/or lack the punch to break through MR, so Rylais is built to make consecutive casting/kiting significantly easier (this is also why the pro players have been cycling through the Burst Mage of the Month ever since Azir was nerfed).

AP items in general - and by extension the mid lane meta - have been on a rather steady downhill ever since DFG was removed (not saying it's the cause, just saying it's where it started)

AcidTheWarlockNov 27, 20161 votes

I have literally never bought a Deathcap.

It needs something else besides raw AP (not CDR or mana though) as a component so it's not such a bitch to build into, considering NLR and Blasting Wands are pretty shit when you would want to build Deathcap.

DasCabbageManNov 28, 20161 votes

I have to disagree. Deathcap is meant to be a tool for high scaling, Item dependant mages. (IE. Veigar) It is meant for these high scaling champs that build things like roa and other high-AP items. Sometimes champs scale better with Flat AP opposed to penetration. (IE. Zyra scales well with pen)

TeCoolMageNov 27, 20161 votes

Okay serious response time:

I think it's important to note that Rabadon's is an item that trades cost efficiency and utility for slot efficiency, but also has a really weird build path and is a weak item in general right now.

The problem is that lots of champions that scale late game tend to get gold inefficient items early only if they

provide relevant stats early (defensive item to aid farming)
are core and absolutely required (tear)

So Rabadon's gets relegated into an always last item. It gives only AP and relies on other items. It's anti-snowball, while also being only a contender, not a dominating pick, when looking for a sixth item.

Honestly, I think it should be reworked as it's the only completed item to be literally nothing but a single stat. A single stat given in an anti-build-diversity way. In fact, I'd much rather have it be a 200+ AP item with literally no other stats or passives as that would open up so many build paths where you can build a full tank or utility item like item 3107 and still have it be effective.

Rabadon's needs to be reworked so that it can be bought earlier on, be built easier, doesn't punish being behind, can be bought to possibly extend a gold lead, doesn't punish low-ap builds, and in general function more effectively in its role which is to give a huge power spike.

BearsOnCrackNov 27, 20161 votes

Well i'm only building this on veigar en cass, no other mages.

Earl EulrichNov 28, 20161 votes

just lowering the cost would be sufficient.

DasCabbageManNov 28, 20161 votes

This "small buff" you show is actually quite large... keep in mind, the combine cost plays a huge factor in how soon you get the power spike. Rabbadons is supposed to be an item you build when ahead because of its expensive combine costs. Risk = Reward.

TotalJerkNov 28, 20161 votes

Two item 1026 is a nerf. It makes the build path worse. It just needs to be cheaper.

Teridax68Nov 28, 20161 votes

Unpopular opinion here: I think Rabadon's should probably just be removed altogether, and the follow-up should be a) more AP on other items, b) price reductions to Amp Tome, and c) AP ratios on abilities increasing per rank.

As of now, Deathcap serves only one purpose, and it's to give more AP. Not only that, its percent amp passive means you only get major amounts of AP if you've already committed to building a lot of it already, which doesn't really help out supports who might want to boost their own power with a chunk of raw ability power. In an era where itemization has moved away from stat sticks, Rabadon's Deathcap is still the AP stat stick, with no gameplay, a niche that isn't particularly interesting ("more AP" is something you're already considering when purchasing AP items anyway), and a set of decisions towards buying it that is so restrictive that it's usually either a must-buy on mages, or not worth considering at all in most cases, at least not until very late into the game.

At a time when mage items are also losing a lot of their raw statistical power, Rabadon's is, in a way, a bit of an indirect nerf to mages: its existence means mages need to choose between utility and more raw AP, when the standard has shifted towards them being able to acquire both in one go. Eliminating it and shifting its power towards the rest of mage itemization and kits would render their power progression a lot more consistent, and allow them to get the utility they need late-game without having to skimp on damage. Scaling AP ratios would also allow AP-scaling supports to make much better use of the ability power they'd acquire through items, and giving mages a mix of fixed and scaling ratios would let them be powerful exactly when they need to be, without having to rely on artificially expensive Amp Tomes to keep their snowballing in check.