@riot please change the tooltip for resistances to display effective hp instead of damage reduction

Critmaster Garen·Apr 29, 2015·15 votes·573 views

most people dont seem to understand the concept, and that resistances are always worth the same for each point you buy, because it displays the funky defined damage reduction value in the tooltip, and thus leads people to believe that armor/mr has diminishing returns.

there seems to be a confusion as to how resistances actually work beause of that. i think effective hp are an easier concept to understand.

17 Comments

UberAffeApr 29, 20151 votes

I think the confusion came about because of items that have % penetration. When attacked by someone with % penetration every extra point of resistance is less effective than the last.

It would be nice if they added an effective health gain next to items that have resistance, similar to how they show the health gain on cinderhulk

Critmaster GarenApr 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think the confusion came about because of items that have % penetration. When attacked by someone with % penetration every extra point of resistance is less effective than the last.

It would be nice if they added an effective health gain next to items that have resistance, similar to how they show the health gain on cinderhulk

well yes. when dealing with % penetration, there are diminishing returns on the gold efficiency of resistances. meaning against someone with last whisper, every point of armor will get more expensive the more you have since more of your total armor is countered with the same item.

but diminishing returns are not a mechanic of the resistance formula itself.

UberAffeApr 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VT5uNaAl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-29T02:48:35.149+0000)

but diminishing returns are not a mechanic of the resistance formula itself.

This actually makes me change my stance, I don't think effective health should be displayed because it could be even more misleading than the common current understand.

If they get attacked by someone that has % or flat penetration then the effective health would have been misleading about how much they can tank.

Critmaster GarenApr 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This actually makes me change my stance, I don't think effective health should be displayed because it could be even more misleading than the common current understand.

If they get attacked by someone that has % or flat penetration then the effective health would have been misleading about how much they can tank.

how would it be more misleading than the "wrong" damage reduction being displayed due to armor pen? the tooltip doesnt give accurate values anyways if you take penetration into account. but it might give a better understanding on how resistances actually work.

UberAffeApr 29, 20151 votes

I haven't payed attention to what the in-game tool-tip says but to my knowledge it says the %damage reduction it will cause on incoming damage. Unless they have the wrong formula to display this I don't see why this would be wrong.

What value is being displayed in-accurately?

Matthias9119Apr 29, 20152 votes

Nothing is inaccurate. He's complaing that he feels that showing %reduction is misleading. For example, going from 0-100 armor takes you from 0% to 50% damage reduction, but going 100-200 armor takes you to 67%, "only" 17% more.

eHP would show a linear gain -- if you have 2000 health and 0 armor you have 2000 eHP, with 100 armor you have 4000 (+100% effective base health), with 200 you have 6000 (+200% effective base health).

I wouldn't have a problem displaying both values. However, %armor shred reacts nonlinearly with both values.

Critmaster GarenApr 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nothing is inaccurate. He's complaing that he feels that showing %reduction is misleading. For example, going from 0-100 armor takes you from 0% to 50% damage reduction, but going 100-200 armor takes you to 67%, "only" 17% more.

eHP would show a linear gain -- if you have 2000 health and 0 armor you have 2000 eHP, with 100 armor you have 4000 (+100% effective base health), with 200 you have 6000 (+200% effective base health).

I wouldn't have a problem displaying both values. However, %armor shred reacts nonlinearly with both values.

exactly this. ive had some discussions with other players recently. and displaying the damage reduction seems to mislead people to think, that the resistance formula has diminishing returns built in. when its actually a linear gain in effetive health. due to the weird definition of damage reduction being something like "DR ~ 1 - 1/armor". its easier to understand the effect of resistances if its displayed as something like "effective health ~ armor*health."

technically diminishing returns in gold effetiveness exists for resistances due % penetration and % shred. but thats a different problem.

LilxPaprikaApr 29, 20151 votes

I agree it wouldn't be more misleading.

Would someone bother explaining effective health for me? Say I have 10000 HP would I take less damage from a single 700(at departure point before resistances) dmg auto attack than if I have 5000hp if I had the same amount of armor?

Champion SkinApr 29, 20153 votes

Armor and MR is very simple each 100 armor (or MR) gives you 1 more HP for each HP you have so if you have 1000 HP you can then take 2000 damage from physical damage

So if you have 1000 hp and 100 armor/mr you can take 2000 damage 2000 hp and 100 armor/mr you can take 4000 damage 3000 hp and 100 armor/mr you can take 6000 damage

1000 hp and 100 armor/mr you can take 2000 damage 1000 hp and 200 armor/mr you can take 3000 damage 1000 hp and 300 armor/mr you can take 4000 damage 2000 hp and 300 armor/mr you can take 8000 damage

Though keep in mind this is in theory and that it doesn't account for things like true damage In general the more HP you have the better resistances is and the more resistances you have the better HP

Here is how you can easily calculate it armor or mr divide it by 100 and add 1 and then you can multiply your health by that number to find your effective health 100 armor and 1000 hp 100 armor/100=1 +1 = 2 2 x 1000 = 2000 effective health against physical damage

150 armor and 2000 hp 150 armor/100=1.5 1.5 + 1 = 2.5 2.5 x 2000 = 5000 effective health against physical damage

junglerboy16Apr 29, 20151 votes

Nicely laid out.

Most tanks in the current meta get to around 5k health and roughly 250-300 armor (if built full tank), meaning that they have roughly 17,500-20,000 effective health.

A squishy on the other hand, with only 2.5k health and 100 armor has only 5,000 effective health.

At first it looks like the tank is only twice as "healthy" as the squishy, but defensive multipliers are actually quite strong, leaving the tank roughly 4 times as durable.

Champion SkinApr 29, 20151 votes

Yeah though ADC itemization is insane Having AS x Crit x AD Enabling them to do insane amounts of damage if not killed or CC'ed (And of course LW is pretty strong as well)

And ADC's also have more health then it looks like they have because of Lifesteal (unless they get bursted 100-0 that is)

Critmaster GarenApr 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Nicely laid out.

Most tanks in the current meta get to around 5k health and roughly 250-300 armor (if built full tank), meaning that they have roughly 17,500-20,000 effective health.

A squishy on the other hand, with only 2.5k health and 100 armor has only 5,000 effective health.

At first it looks like the tank is only twice as "healthy" as the squishy, but defensive multipliers are actually quite strong, leaving the tank roughly 4 times as durable.

thats a bit too generous. if you have 5k hp you wont get 300 armor. the only tanks who can realisitcally reach that much without ignoring resistances might be singed and cho.

id say ~4k health and between 250 and 300 armor is more realistic for a full tank build. and that is already heavy into armor itemization while neglecting mr items. putting effective health at about 14k to 16k against physical damage.

against magical damage its much less with these values. you have to consider that ranged ad carries crit for around 1500 health lategame before mitigation, which means it takes about 10 auto attacks for them to kill a tank. plus attack steroids and abilities, minus defensive steroids.

junglerboy16Apr 29, 20151 votes

Cinderhulk junglers like Sion or Cho'gath can easily get to 5k health and at least 250 armor. It may have been generous in general, but not by too much.

Aych PiiApr 29, 20152 votes

Sion and Cho'Gath both have max health increases built into their kit. Other champions have a hard time reaching that level.

junglerboy16Apr 29, 20151 votes

that's why I followed up by saying I was too generous, because I was basing it off of two super tanks.

LilxPaprikaApr 29, 20151 votes

Thank you champion skin for the exaplanation

So, its better to build armor while stacking HP, correct?. Since resistances scale off HP is what your telling me? Does'nt this further polarize the game?

So what your telling me with regards to my example is that regardless of having the same amount of armor that 700 DMG shot will deal more damage if you have more HP than less, despite having the same armor?

Now can someone explain to me why this is good?

Why don't they incorporate a min max factor? Like for warmogs I would like a minimum % health regen in case I don't stack HP. Let's say I'm Evelyn and build item 3156 item 3714 item 3025 item 3075 item 3111 item 3083

In this scenarios all I have itemwise for HP is warmogs hardly benefiting from its passive and yet its my only sustain item. If it gave a min regen that equalled like the equivalent of having 3300k HP at lvl 18.

Something similar for resistance would be nice, you can only get "gipped" so much for not going the stacking route.

I think its harsh that in order to maximize item uses you have to go all in. I get it for dealing DMG (but at least thanks to lifesteal their source of sustain also scale along with their damage output, kind of like riven getting a bigger shield for going damage) champion who do not have this luxury of being able to take advantage of polarization are sort of left behind. I get the need for polarization when it comes to dps but not so much for damage mitigation, paying for the same amount of resistances and getting less out of it because you have less HP.

junglerboy16Apr 29, 20151 votes

The basic way armor and MR functions is like this:

% damage reduction gives exponentially increasing effective health (every 1% more damage reduction is stronger than the last)
Flat armor/MR gives exponentially decreasing % damage reduction (no matter how much you build, you can never get to 100% damage reduction)
Flat armor/MR gives flat increase in effective health
1 point of armor/MR= 1% of your HP statistic as bonus effective health.