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Riot is a hypocrite

The Cane Master··4 votes·18,997 views
Champion Roadmap, June 2017 - Nexus - League of Legends

In this article, if you scroll down to the first break, you'll see a Riot citation: ,, ...we'll start to prioritize reworks based on need rather than on a champion's specific class.''. While I do agree with this policy, it's just isn't the reality. For example, next up the rework list are Urgot and Evelynn. While Urgot is seriously outdated and doing poorly in the current meta, Evelyn certainly doesn't. That being said, I can think of a champion that is ,,in higher need'' of a rework - I present to you a champion that has been released in 2009 (yes 8 years ago), has never been reworked, classified as a Juggernaut yet comletely ignored during the Juggernaut subclass update and doing extremely poorly in the current meta. If we compare these stats to Evelyn's, already at the first glance we can see who's doing worse, and I let that judgement upon to you all. Riot says it's Evelynn , however I obviously disagree, and ask you to tell everyone what would be the criteria that DrMundo doesn't meet?

95 Comments

RiotReav331 votes

That comment wasn't directed towards VGU selection which has a different criteria then roster projects. That comment was about the future of class updates and smaller reworks that aim to fix large gamehealth problems and increase champion diversity in the current cast.

The comment meant that we won't just pick the small roster scope reworks based on a class but that we would also prioritize the champions against other champions that need work that aren't in a specific class. Azir for example needs some small work done (not VGU level) so he is being prioritized against other divers that also need work.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Do you guys have a rough tier list for champs who need small reworks?

Ahristocats4 votes

one thing that i loved about roster update is the amount of champion changed

assassin updated fixed tank ekko, fixed shaco's unbearable early game, gave katarina talon a nice update and made rengar healthier (though not perfect) and counterplay to fizz

if you decide to pick up champions instead of roster updates, are you going to work on the same amount of champions=?

there are a dozen of stat-checking champions that need work to be healthier IMO

RenanRein2 votes

Hey Reav3, can I ask you something? I know you guys already said that we won't receive only Visual Gameplay anymore. But with your new policy, isn't logic do Only Visual Updates too? There's champions that needs only Gameplay updates because they're feel outdated. But also there's champions with a solid kit but that have texture/vfx extremely old. I'll use Veigar as examples. His kit is very nice. And his thematic as a dark cosmic mage yordle is really cool. But his Vfx are so old (specially his basic attack, Q and E). So, why aren't you guys considering only Visual Updates to this kind of case.

RiotReav310 votes

The main reason is that Visual updates aren't really appreciated nearly as much as a Gameplay update. They also take MUCH more resources. Small gameplay updates generally only take a designer and then a small amount of anim/vfx/audio work depending on which abilities change. VU's take Character Artists, tech artists, concept artists, splash artists and much more VFX, audio/anim work.

If we wanted to do VUs again we would have to spin up a whole team dedicated to doing VUs unless we wanted to significantly slow down the amount of VGUs we are doing which we don't want to do as players have shown they really love and want more VGUs.

When we do a GU update tons of player try out the new champion. In General whenever we do gameplay updates to the game or champions it gets players excited to play league. We don't see this same response for VUs.

Lee Sin for example is pretty old visually though it doesn't really stop him from being one of the most popular champions in the game. On the other hand If a champion has unhealthy or dated/boring gameplay very few people will play that Champion.

Sorry for getting very producer-y here but I hope that makes sense.

RenanRein1 votes

That makes totally sense (and I think everyone here like this kind of "very producer-y" answers). So, for the kind of champions that maybe need only vfx or a texture polish, it's more correct if we expect something like a sporadic update (but not guaranteed), something like the ability icons update and some splashes update (like prestigious lb, spellthief lux, etc).

Thanks for the answer!

RiotReav37 votes

Yeah, if the opportunity presents itself we will try to make these things better for sure. For example, for Talon and LB we updated ALL there VFX/SFX even though we only updated a couple abilities.

PermabannedGaren5 votes

{quoted}

The main reason is that Visual updates aren't really appreciated nearly as much as a Gameplay update. They also take MUCH more resources. Small gameplay updates generally only take a designer and then a small amount of anim/vfx/audio work depending on which abilities change. VU's take Character Artists, tech artists, concept artists, splash artists and much more VFX, audio/anim work.

If we wanted to do VUs again we would have to spin up a whole team dedicated to doing VUs unless we wanted to significantly slow down the amount of VGUs we are doing which we don't want to do as players have shown they really love and want more VGUs.

When we do a GU update tons of player try out the new champion. In General whenever we do gameplay updates to the game or champions it gets players excited to play league. We don't see this same response for VUs.

Lee Sin for example is pretty old visually though it doesn't really stop him from being one of the most popular champions in the game. On the other hand If a champion has unhealthy or dated/boring gameplay very few people will play that Champion.

Sorry for getting very producer-y here but I hope that makes sense.

That's nice and all, but is Mundo having any work done on him soon? What about Garen? Both have been contenders for "worst top laner" for a while now.

RiotReav38 votes

Mundo is pretty high on our list for a full VGU. He needs a lot of work so he will probably be more in the Galio/Sion camp rather then the WW/Eve "Modernization" camp. After WW and Urgot we want to take a little break from Zaun-themed champions though.

Talking to Live Gampleay, who will soon be in charge of the small reworks, they feel Garen is definitely on the list for s smaller "Rek'Sai" scope thing at some point, not sure when though.

Spideraxe1 votes

Do you feel as though a lot of champs who previously had VUs, whne you guys did them, and have lack luster gameplay could use them like kassadin?

RiotReav36 votes

Some of them. Kassadin's gameplay has held up pretty well though.

Spideraxe5 votes

Might be just a personal thing with gameplay. What do you think about champs who had gotten GUs but no VUs like Veigar or Zilean

Raxistaicho1 votes

I dunno about Garen, I think he could use a full VGU, honestly.

His gameplay pattern is too straightforward and devoid of outplay on either side.

Jeddy0175 votes

Garen doesn't need a VGU. He was already visually updated (2013) & his visuals still holds up well. All he needs is a GU.

Valor Bot2 votes

I'd say if we were to take an honest look at Garen and hold him up to the current standards for new champions and VGUs, we'd notice he falls short.

In terms of visuals:

  • Demacia's aesthetic has changed a lot since Garen's VU in 2013. A modern Garen would be wearing much more silver steel and white petricite than the one we have today.
  • The tabard Garen wears depicts a symbol for Demacia that is no longer canonical or representative of the faction as a whole.
  • Garen's VO lacks depth and makes him out to be a one-dimensional, cliche Captain America-type character while his lore promises a humble, stoic, yet fiercely patriotic individual that isn't as loud or obnoxious as the Garen we see in game today.
  • Expanding on the VO bit, he lacks any significant amount of interaction with other champions. He also never mentions any of the main conflicts in his story arc, including his fear for whether his sister is magical or not.

In terms of gameplay, Garen is simply a binary champion that fails to see consistent success at the higher echelons of play. It's ok to have new player-friendly champions, but that shouldn't necessarily come at the expense of high elo viability.

So yeah, Garen was updated in 2013, and there are far, far more champions in need of work than him. But I do think a modernization would be good for him overall.

HítlerDidNtWrong1 votes

SO much this. I made a huge post up at the Riot post in hopes they will read it, please give me your thoughts on if I hit the nail or missed something. I tried to be concise but there's so many examples and comparisons I felt I needed to give to get the point across because it's been so long since anyone from Riot gave serious thought to why Garen is as low as he is now and how it can be improved noticeably and simply.

La Bello2 votes

some suggestions but If you get around to giving Mundo a VGU you should keep him really top heavy and maybe even give him some gorilla like characteristics in his movements to really accentuate his low IQ and brute strength. Would also be pretty cool if he used his own body as a holster for weapons ( such as storing his cleaver in his back when not using it for "safe keeping" or whatever other Syringes).

ShadowParker4 votes

Question about GU's: Since you're now doing GU updates instead of class updates, does that mean Voli could potentially receive one instead of a VGU since his art isn't that bad?

RiotReav314 votes

Voli definitely needs a full VGU. His art/theme needs a lot of work.

The Cane Master2 votes

{quoted}

Voli definitely needs a full VGU. His art/theme needs a lot of work.

How about Nasus Nasus ?

Raxistaicho2 votes

There's seriously SO many cooler things you can do with an armored thunder war bear than "throws your around bites you and roars"

ShadowParker1 votes

Really? Is your first instinct to how with rebuilding him from the ground up ala Sion/Gallo or a modernization ala Eve/WW?

Also is his art really not up to riots Standards? I didn't think it was that bad.

RiotReav33 votes

Probably closer to something like Poppy, which means a lot of game play changes but more of a modernization on his theme/visuals then a complete overhaul. This is just my gut feeling though, we could come to different conclusions when we actually start work on him at some point.

Malicious Metal6 votes

Well, Zilean always said that Armored Bears don't belong in the League of Legends.

start a new1 votes

[deleted]

RiotReav312 votes

Akali is very high on the list actually. She is a champion that is very loved by a lot of a players and has become more highly requested for a VGU every year. We think she has a lot of potential if we gave a her a big modernization VGU similar to WW.

But it wasnt me2 votes

I beg you, please don't destroy her identity and don't put more delays on her damage. She already has a two hit passive...any delay more would be the death of her.

Also, consider the fact that she is the only full melee assassin without any form of cc or ranged harass. If you violate that kit, you are harming champion diversity. (we don't need another Diana or Irelia) Thank you.

Frostfyre Akali6 votes

As a dedicated 370k+ Akali main, Please make the VGU like Warwicks Amazing VGU and NOT like Galio's/poppy's, which were both successful but scrapped their original Identities & playstyles. Akali players love Akali because of her unique core playstyle, and if you shift her core playstyle to something not of an assassin/hypercarry, then you will Alienate Akali mains.

I'm not just saying this to say this either, After her mini-scale rework handled by silver 2 Riot Rickless, Akali shifted from an assassin/ hypercarry into a splitpusher & skirmisher, and because of that almost every high-ELO Akali main hated the rework or quit because of it, and only returned when she gained her ability to burst (somewhat) back, so please, if you have ANY say in the matter me and every other Akali main plead that y'all keep her core Identity and don't scrap her Iconic traits/abilities, after all an Akali without burst, mobility & sustain isn't an Akali at all.

RiotReav37 votes

Akali would almost certainly be in the "modernization" camp like WW. Her overall theme is very solid, she just needs to be re-built of the modern age.

Spideraxe1 votes

Hey reav3 since you've been talking about modernizations a lot can i ask what the other side of the spectrum be li, what would you call the VGUs that aren't modernizations?

RiotReav35 votes

You mean which champions needs Sion/Galio level work? Keep in mind this is just my gut feelings and things could change when we actually work on these champions. Champions I feel need massive overhauls would be champions like Nunu, Skarner, Swain, Mordekaiser, Mundo, Cho'Gath, Tryndamere to name a few. Not saying they all would be as big as Galio's changes were but that they probably need a lot of work. These are gjust off the top of my head and I am sure I am missing a some though.

Valor Bot1 votes

Would you consider Yorick a modernization or a complete overhaul? I feel like he generally kept the same theme of "necromancer" but updated to fit the current League.

RiotReav35 votes

Complete overhaul. A complete overhaul doesn't mean there aren't some things that are cool that we keep.

Valor Bot3 votes

Cool. Also I just wanted to say thanks for being so active and open to discussion with us here on the forums, Reav3. It's really cool having someone knowledgeable we can talk to about champion updates!

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

[deleted]

Spideraxe2 votes

Aren't modernizations also VGUs since they both have their Visuals and Gameplay updated even if not a complete overhaul

Report Evelynn2 votes

{quoted}

Akali would almost certainly be in the "modernization" camp like WW. Her overall theme is very solid, she just needs to be re-built of the modern age.

Well, there are some more champions who are a bit older and could need "modernization" like Janna. What do you think about her? Made a post about this topic addressed to you and meddler but didn't get any response. (Which is understandable cause u guys have a lot of stuff to do lol.)

Valor Bot2 votes

I'm not Reav3, but I feel like Janna's kit could definitely be updated to be less bland and uninteractive. Her new lore states she's powered by faith, so maybe she could get a mechanic that makes her stronger depending on how many allies she's rallied with.

Janna's also supposed to have a bluebird form that she shapeshifts into while traveling. This could serve as a replacement for her current passive/W passive that gives her bonus movement speed and/or gives allies a chase/escape tool when they're following with her.

Qiyana is SO HOT4 votes

The biggest thing we mains of her want Reav3 is that when you guys do modernize her you preserve her core and the things we mains love about her. Those things being her 3 dashes which are iconic, her dual scalings/hybrid damage, her sustain and lastly her assassin/ninja feel. The mini rework she got in the assassin update turned her from an assassin into an almost pseudo fighter because she lost alot of her damage/burst from pre rework and its forced her toplane instead of mid where she as an assassin should be played.

Not having a laning phase before the rework was tolerable because she became so strong at 6 but she doesnt spike nearly as hard at 6 anymore due to the changes she got which makes mid feel so much worse now. She needs a way to fight ranged pre-6 so she can go back mid where she belongs. Hopefully you can maybe pass this along to the team that works on her eventually when the time comes but we just want our assassin/hyper carry burst damage Akali back not this hybrid squishier version of Jax thats shes become.

NA Darklarik3 votes

{quoted}

Voli definitely needs a full VGU. His art/theme needs a lot of work.

What about Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr

Rustfe1 votes

{quoted}

Voli definitely needs a full VGU. His art/theme needs a lot of work.

Bless your soul. Voli was the champ that hooked me into this game. I hope with a VGU I can play him in this meta. Volibear

Seatone1 votes

any updates maybe on working on volibear

Raxistaicho2 votes

Not to mention there's the issue that a VU can be made obsolete if the champion ends up needing a gameplay update before long.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

MonkeyKing Diana were candidate to be major rework during Divers class updates... Will we wait another year until an update ? since u don't rework class as a whole now Just asking for GU

RiotReav33 votes

They are still on the list. Not sure where they will be prioritized though as that prioritization will be handled by the live gameplay team in the future not champion update.

Kobold1 votes

May I have some clarification regarding Zilean ?

Riot Previously stated he is Great Thematically and Gameplay wise and in a Good spot visually so he would not be up for any rework anytime soon. Regarding this I would like to know the reasoning for this belief?

While I am no Zilean main, when I look at him from a thematic and gameplay perspective he is massively lacking in meeting his theme (Time Mage correct?) and instead seems to be put together at the moment with low thought ability interactions for time magic. While technically any ability can be a time magic ability, Zilean's are extremely basic in concept and execution. If we look at Ekko he even fulfills time based gameplay in a more functional and interesting way.

RiotReav36 votes

Hmm. Not sure who previously said this but Zilean is on our VGU list just not super high on the list. He needs work at some point down the line but there are currently champions that need it more.

NinjaGuy694 votes

Hmm. Not sure who previously said this but Zilean is on our VGU list just not super high on the list. He needs work at some point down the line but there are currently champions that need it more.

Give me something on Singed, Mordekaiser and Nunu. I'm counting on you Reav3. I don't play any of those champions, nor am I attempting to disrespect the original designers who worked on them....but the goonsquad literally looks like they all got hit by a bus, stood up and stuttered over to some train tracks and then got hit by a train. Furthermore, they all have really unhealthy and/or dated playstyles. You can not realistically leave them in their current states, senpai.

P.S. I didn't play a single game of old Galio while he was available since I started playing this game in Season 3, but new Galio is fun as fuck. Keep it up.

Sexy Jack Rabbit5 votes

I've always been curious about Annie. She's basically iconic to the game, and whilst her playrate isn't exactly high I'd argue she's popular. Any word on her gameplay? Or is she just healthy?

TyrekGoldenspear8 votes

Because they already started on Evelynn?

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