Tank items should be reworked

The Cane Master·Sep 3, 2016·100 votes·5,839 views

Currently, it is a carry top meta , and most (real) tanks are not in a good spot. As of right now, tank items give flat armor and/or MR. However this makes all champions viable as tanks, more or less depending on the individual kit. I don't think this is a good thing, and I suggest a rework. Imho all pure, immobile (no dash/blink I'm looking at you ) tanks should have their base MR and armor increased, but make all tank items grant percentage of that value so that the same values are reached. Modifiers like passive health/armor/mr increases then come to play bringing value, like 's and 's resistances. Thoughts and opinions?

175 Comments

SanctimoniousSep 3, 201626 votes

Interesting concept. So an item like item 3143 would be better on someone like Poppy or Malphite compared to Ekko . What about bruisers and fighters? Irelia, Jax, Gnar, Kayle etc. Would they get compensated halfway or any individual thoughts?

I'm interested what riot could do for this stuff. Like, right now tanks have a few synergizing items. Namely item 3083 item 3065 and item 3025 item 3068 .

Historically, i think item 3071 item 3068 item 3190 was one, and uh This: item 3065 item 3748 item 3053 item 3742 Right now, i think It's more along the lines of item 3026 .

Definitely think that items that scale with base Armor / Mr should exist, and more stuff like item 3053 item 3026 item 3025 item 3748

Critmaster GarenSep 3, 201616 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Meta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-03T18:09:14.529+0000)

Interesting concept. So an item like would be better on someone like or compared to . What about bruisers and fighters? Irelia, Jax, Gnar, Kayle etc. Would they get compensated halfway or any individual thoughts?

its a matter of base resistances for those guys.

i can easily see defensive items work by granting bonus armor/mr based on base resistances of a champion.

only thing is, pretty much all champions resistance values would have to get rebalanced. but it can be made work.

RalanrSep 3, 201618 votes

Though something like that would be a preseason patch imo.

LegacyDAPSep 3, 20167 votes

tbh, I'm fine with this for a preseason patch. Tanks have needed a rework for the past 2-3 seasons since everyone and their mothers are abusing tank items.

SanctimoniousSep 3, 20164 votes

Yeah, Like health regen and rejuv beads. I like that idea. That'ed effectively would kill tank carries.

JustMyBassCannonSep 3, 201619 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-03T18:02:28.701+0000)

Currently, it is carry top meta, and most (real) tanks are not in a good spot. As of right now, tank items give flat armor and/or MR. However this makes all champions viable as tanks, more or less depending on the individual kit.

I read the rest of what you wrote, but I just want to stop you right here.

If you genuinely believe that having the ability to buy Armor/MR/Health makes a champion into a Tank, you are misunderstanding the role. There's a difference between being a damage sponge and a Tank.

If you were to build tank on, say, Master Yi, you would suddenly run into a major problem: you can't force anyone to focus on you, and you can't disrupt the fight. Those are the two main jobs of being a Tank. Look at any champion in the Tank category, and you'll see they have tools specifically built for engaging a fight, disrupting a fight, and/or making people focus on them instead of their carries, assassins, mages and supports.

But Master Yi doesn't have any of that. Alpha Strike does pitiful damage without AD. Meditate is only useful if they started focusing you and don't keep any CC for when you use it. Wuju Style is hella useless without AD. And Highlander can get you into a fight and annoy some people, but you don't have the means to actually make anyone take you as a serious threat compared to anyone else on your team.

What makes a tank isn't surviving forever against impossible amounts of damage. It's engaging, disrupting and protecting while your damage-focused teammates do the rest.

That's the fundamental problem behind this post. Tanks aren't failing at that job, they just aren't improbably-stoppable colossi anymore.

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20161 votes

Okay, I'm, looking at Nasus and DrMundo , two of the several pure tanks in the game, that is no ap or ad ratios on abilities (disregarding AP Nasus which is way unviable, almost a troll pick). What are their initations, disruptions, or even ways of forcing people to focus damage onto them?

edit1: formatting edit2: typos

JustMyBassCannonSep 3, 201610 votes

Nasus and Mundo initiate fights by slowing down an enemy target. Making someone on the enemy team an easy target means that they or their teammates can get on top of them. Doesn't work against everyone, obviously, but that's their primary engagement tool.

It's true that they lack hard CC, but in exchange for that, they have high innate damage output. Neither one of them needs to build any damage items at all to remain a relevant threat late-game. Nasus' Q builds up stacks and has a naturally low cooldown (and people usually get at least 20% CDR on Nasus), and his ultimate deals significant %HP damage over 15 seconds. Mundo's Q deals the greater between 280 and 25% of a target's current HP with a 4-second base cooldown, he has the highest AD steroid in the game at +100-200 AD (which ALSO deals %HP damage on the first attack and has a low cooldown), and his W deals damage over time as long as he has it turned on.

Their method of disrupting a fight is more about being a high-damage threat than using hard CC. When you see Nasus or Mundo, you get the hell away from them because they will fucking murder you unless you're specifically anti-tank and they don't get close to you at all.

Thanks for asking. I thought all I was gonna get out of this was fucknut Reddit downvoting because I'm of an unpopular understanding of the game.

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20161 votes

While Reddit truly downvotes both stupid and well-thought posts, you my friend aren't having an unpopular understanding of the game, you are having a wrong understanding of the game. To prove it, I am going to state that both Nasus and DrMundo are having 0% competitive pick rate for quite some time. Nasus was last time succesfully used as a meta pick as a jungler more than 3 years ago (RIP TSM Oddone). These would be consequtive nerfs that made it possible:

V4.1

Wither

Cast range reduced to 600 from 700

Fury of the Sands No longer increases the cast ranges of Wither and Spirit Fire

V3.14

Soul Eater Life steal changed to 10 / 15 / 20% at levels 1 / 7 / 13 from 14 / 17 / 20% at levels 1 / 6 / 11.

V3.13

Siphoning Strike Will now be blocked by spell shields.

V3.6

Wither Attack speed slow amount has been halved.

About DrMundo , these would be his pick and win rate https://www.champion.gg/champion/DrMundo

JustMyBassCannonSep 3, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-03T20:08:57.712+0000)

While Reddit truly downvotes both stupid and well-thought posts, you my friend aren't having unpopular understanding of the game, you are having a wrong understanding of the game.

Oh, really now?

To prove it, I am going to state that both and are having 0% competitive pick rate for quite some time. was last time successfully used as a meta pick as a jungler more than 3 years ago (RIP TSM Oddone). These would be consecutive nerfs that made it possible:

V4.1

Wither

Cast range reduced to 600 from 700

Fury of the Sands No longer increases the cast ranges of Wither and Spirit Fire

V3.14

Soul Eater Life steal changed to 10 / 15 / 20% at levels 1 / 7 / 13 from 14 / 17 / 20% at levels 1 / 6 / 11.

V3.13

Siphoning Strike Will now be blocked by spell shields.

V3.6

Wither Attack speed slow amount has been halved.

About , these would be his pick and win rate https://www.champion.gg/champion/DrMundo

And that...proves what?

That these champions aren't competitive?

That's not at all the subject of the conversation. Whether or not they're viable in higher-rank gameplay is irrelevant to the facts of their champion design.

We weren't talking about their pick rates or viability, we were talking about how they fit into the paradigm of Tank champions. They're damage tanks instead of heavy-CC tanks, and they draw focus by being a huge threat in a fight. Their main source of tanking is self-sustain during combat, and their main damage output automatically scales as the game progresses.

None of that has anything to do with their ranked pick rates.

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20161 votes

And that...proves what?

That these champions aren't competitive?

Yes, among other things down below.

They're damage tanks instead of heavy-CC tanks, and they draw focus by being a huge threat in a fight. Their main source of tanking is self-sustain during combat, and their main damage output automatically scales as the game progresses.

None of that has anything to do with their ranked pick rates.

It has to do everything with ranked pick and win rates. Damage tanks (Juggernauts) that are using tank items and being a huge threat in fights, having 0% competitive pick rate followed by a really low win rate in solo queue. Much gud, such wow.

This fact is true for years, and the main reason to it are their kits, which are binary. In order for them to become better, they would need better scaling with items, or at least better base stats, as building full tank they are being outclassed by other utility picks (not mentioning the actual carry meta with Gangplank and Gnar . Oh wait, that would be straight up buffing them? Yes! That is why I suggested for tank items to scale with % of Base Stats that would become increased for champions needing to build full tank in order to be useful, while removing these mid lane rejects in Ekko and Gragas as viable top picks using the exact same build path.

JustMyBassCannonSep 4, 20165 votes

You're still going off-topic, captain.

You. Did. Not. Prove. What. I. Said. To. Be. Wrong.

Instead, all you did was try to pull the focus away from the explanation of how two champions function, and try to say that your suggestion of a genuinely stupid item overhaul is for the benefit of these two champions.

Maybe, juuuust maybe, the problem isn't items, but those two specific champions.

As for being salty about Ekko and Gragas(?) being able to build like bruisers and do well, Gragas was a mage bruiser before it was cool. You can't sit there and tell me that he's not built to be a mage bruiser.

Ekko? Yeah, sure, it sucks that his kit allows him to do well as a bruiser, but that's again a specific, individual champion that's not tuned properly. This happens when the roster is over 100 champions and still constantly growing.

OneSmoothDudeSep 4, 20163 votes

Woah woah, hang on a second.

OP doesn't really know what a tank is. Your initial comment is correct, as are all of your responses up until this one. Thanks for explaining that to him and calling him out in his responses. thumbs up

Instead, all you did was [...] try to say that your suggestion of a genuinely stupid item overhaul is for the benefit of these two champions.

Maybe, juuuust maybe, the problem isn't items, but those two specific champions.

Let's exclude those two champs and this whole argument over the classification of tanks, because this has nothing to do with OP's original topic.

You used Yi for an example of a champ who can't build tanky and be effective (anymore). And you're right, building tanky doesn't make you a tank. But this topic wasn't made with Yi in mind. It was made because there is a fundamental problem within League that allows for non-tanks to build tanky and be too good.

This has been a problem all season long. (Yes, there have been cases in seasons past, but this season in particular has been rife with such problems.) Graves, Ekko, Fizz, Yasuo, Yi, Fiora, Shyvana, Gnar, Swain, Vlad, Akali, Rengar, all were huge problems before nerfs.

Hell, for a little while there before IBG was nerfed you could go IBG/Sunfire on ANYONE and be successful. I remember Valkrin streaming tank Talon and LeBlanc games and abusing them in Master and Challenger-tier games, and Dyrus finding success with full tank Jayce. lolwut

Do you think it's more likely that all of these champs were all coincidentally too powerful after building tanky items because of their kits...or is it because maybe, juuuust maybe, the problem is with the itemization?

Enter OP and his idea. You mentioned that you read the rest of his post, but the only thing I've seen you say of it is that it's "genuinely stupid," and you didn't say why.

We have offensive scalings that limit build paths, why not defensive scalings as well?

When Yi was too powerful, his flat numbers were nerfed and his scalings were increased to encourage him to build AD, right? Well OP's idea is effectively the same thing, except it introduces defensive scalings.

It makes sense. Even though Yi has AP scaling, he doesn't build it because his ratios are hideous. Similarly, if this change went through, Ekko won't build Dead Man's Plate anymore if he only got, say, 300 health instead of the full 500 and 30 armor instead of the full 50.

Mandang0Sep 4, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Hell, for a little while there before IBG was nerfed you could go IBG/Sunfire on ANYONE and be successful. I remember Valkrin streaming tank Talon and LeBlanc games and abusing them in Master and Challenger-tier games, and Dyrus finding success with full tank Jayce. lolwut

"ANYONE" is too generous. Actual tanks weren't succeeding, and juggernauts weren't building that either (besides maybe Nasus). In fact, most of the champs who abused IBG/Sunfire share one thing: high mobility.

Not disagreeing that the itemization is a problem, but I'm a bit skeptical that it's the best place to start considering the large amount of collateral damage this proposed change could cause. I'd much rather see Riot change keystones to scale off of defense/offense to reward builds that focus on one or the other rather than creating these damage/tank hybrid monsters.

B0OMSep 3, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Their method of disrupting a fight is more about being a high-damage threat than using hard CC. When you see Nasus or Mundo, you get the hell away from them because they will fucking murder you unless you're specifically anti-tank and they don't get close to you at all.

This is literally the definition of a Juggernaut.

B0OMSep 3, 201615 votes

Nasus and Mundo are both categorized as Juggernauts.

Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20161 votes

They are maybe categorized as Juggernauts, however their playstyle and build are the same as those of tanks, except they don't have any hard cc and get kited to death. The only real Juggernaut item in the game is item 3742 , but its price has been increased while also getting a slow decreased. Also DrMundo has little to no synergy with it. That is why I suggested a rework of the tank items.

RalanrSep 3, 201625 votes

That's what a juggernaut is.

SkiasSep 3, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-03T20:15:18.668+0000)

They are maybe categorized as Juggernauts, however their playstyle and build are the same as those of tanks, except they don't have any hard cc and get kited to death. The only real Juggernaut item in the game is Dead Man's plate, but its price has been increased while also getting a slow decreased. Also has little to no synergy with it. That is why I suggested a rework of the tank items.

They aren't though. Nasus and Mundo are not disruptors. They are both damage sponges. Nasus' job is to kill priority targets, mainly turrets. He's basically a melee siege engine, not a tank. Mundo annoys the enemy but is easily ignored.

RalanrSep 3, 201613 votes

Those are juggernauts...

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20162 votes

using exact same build path as full tanks, cuz there are no Juggernaut items for them to use and be relevant.

RalanrSep 3, 20168 votes

Because juggernauts and tanks synergize with similar items.

TFBaamSep 3, 20163 votes

mundo uses steraks nasus uses deadmans

anyways, those 2 champions are due for their own reworks

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20162 votes

Yes, I agree, however Riot hasn't stated anything yet on either of these, dunno why this isn't their priority.

TFBaamSep 3, 20164 votes

they already have alot of champs in line, and that line isnt even shown to us execpt for the top 2

warwick and yorick (soon to be replaced by galio)

urgot akali eve already on it. they prob have shaco, rammus, and alot on the list too along with mundo and nasus. the priority is the top 2

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-update/state-champion-update

GULAG 4 USep 3, 201612 votes

Tanks don't build cleavers. And most of them don't use steraks to what i know.

GULAG 4 USep 3, 20162 votes

Tank yi top is legit, but it's called bruiser. It's not an actual tank build.

item 3153 item 3071 item 3156 item 3006 item 3143 item 3022

JustMyBassCannonSep 4, 20162 votes

Four items with a pretty significant portion of AD, plus one of them deals %HP damage.

"Tank" indeed. Let me know when that build works on any tanks

bill84Sep 4, 20164 votes

Gnar sup bitch

JustMyBassCannonSep 4, 20163 votes

While Maw, BotRK and Berz aren't as common to build on Gnar because they aren't optimal on him, congratulations, you actually did what I asked and presented a counter-point.

Gnar ends up being a better tank in 100% of situations with that build, though. Yi just ends up surviving a bit better versus other pure damage champions.

bill84Sep 4, 20164 votes

Ik I don't really have an opinion on this I just wanted to point out that Gnar can build that.

NiaphimSep 3, 201610 votes

The main problem now is damage creep, not tank items or tanks in general. We need to get rid of or reduce free damage provided by fervor, thunderlords and maybe tone down damage overall.

VesarixxSep 3, 20168 votes

This would potentially cause some problems if actually implemented, like how would you balance around items like item 3001 item 3157 item 3156 that give resistances but aren't meant as true tank items, they are pretty important items for dealing with certain matchups or attempting to come back from behind. There are also several champions that need to build defensively while not necessarily going full tank AurelionSol Vladimir Diana all require some durability to be able to even function as damage sources to begin with so they don't just get blown up.

Giving all tank champions high base values would also mean they had quite an advantage in the early game and could potentially end up being used more like bruisers than actual tanks similar to how champions with high base damages build tanky now because the mix of stats they get from building that way is better overall than just building more of what they already have.

This also does limit build diversity quite a bit, while instances like tank Ekko Fizz or Akali can be problematic there are several others that are not game breaking and bring something unique to the game or allow a new strategy to be created.

This could also negatively affect champions that aren't even building multiple defensive items, making champions that would normally build a defensive last item a lot weaker compared to those that scaled better with full damage or could deal their damage from further away.

Teridax68Sep 3, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-03T19:47:11.474+0000)

This would potentially cause some problems if actually implemented, like how would you balance around items like that give resistances but aren't meant as true tank items, they are pretty important items for dealing with certain matchups or attempting to come back from behind.

I don't know if it's entirely relevant to mention those items because those aren't the items being abused by squishy champions. At worst, they could just keep their stats as they are, and the switch could only be carried onto "proper" tanky items, but a potentially better solution could be to either adjust those items through their unique features (e.g. Hexdrinker/MoM's shield, Abyssal's aura or Hourglass's active), or simply buff their resists. Alternatively, their components should probably give their users more tools to handle those kinds of matchups (e.g. Hexdrinker's anti-burst shield) that don't fall under pure passive resistances, which tend to be how tanks and most fighters deal with incoming damage.

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-03T19:47:11.474+0000)

There are also several champions that need to build defensively while not necessarily going full tank all require some durability to be able to even function as damage sources to begin with so they don't just get blown up.

OP mentioned a few tanky champions who aren't tanks, i.e. Shyvana and Garen, so I think they may have implied including all tanky champions in general, including fighters, and not just tanks. Battle mages like Aurelion Sol and Vladimir, and divers like Diana are all meant to be innately durable, so buffing their base stats to better accomodate the switch would help them (buffing the resists on defensive AP items, as mentioned above, could also help them without affecting other classes too much).

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-03T19:47:11.474+0000)

Giving all tank champions high base values would also mean they had quite an advantage in the early game

This doesn't necessarily have to happen. For example, instead of putting the full impact of the buffs at level 1, you could buff tanky champions' stat growth, which would have minimal early-game impact. Tank champions also tend to build tanky items very early in the game, too, so even a level 1 buff could end up leading to exactly the same net values when you factor the two together.

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-03T19:47:11.474+0000)

This also does limit build diversity quite a bit, while instances like tank or can be problematic there are several others that are not game breaking and bring something unique to the game or allow a new strategy to be created.

I agree, squishy champions who happen to be fun and healthy with tanky items would find them less attractive in general, and thereby not use them, but if they synergize especially well with some specific items, they probably deserve an item that caters to that which doesn't exist yet. For example, if a lot of assassins or light fighters enjoy building Dead Man's Plate for its roaming potential, perhaps what we need is a roam-friendly damage item, or a buff to Boots of Mobility. If what they're ultimately looking for is an item that happens to give them both mobility and tankiness, they could still use DMP, but it'd be less effective on them than before, which is fine, considering tankiness is supposed to represent a major tradeoff on offensive champions. It's also worth mentioning that squishy champions very rarely, if ever, turn out to be truly healthy with tanky builds, mainly because it covers up one of their core weaknesses.

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqajGpAd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-03T19:47:11.474+0000)

This could also negatively affect champions that aren't even building multiple defensive items, making champions that would normally build a defensive last item a lot weaker compared to those that scaled better with full damage or could deal their damage from further away.

A change like this would only change item scaling relative to a champion's base stats, not items scaling with themselves. A marksman who gets a Guardian Angel will get less value from that item, assuming no other changes, purely because they have below-average base resistances, not because they didn't invest in a full tank build. Technically, any champion with just one or a few tanky items gets less value from them even now, since resists multiply health, but that wouldn't change with the kind of switch OP is proposing. If nothing else, perhaps this could be an opportunity to evaluate exactly how squishy-oriented defensive items should operate: Guardian Angel is definitely a defensive item for squishies, for example, but its base stats and even its resurrect work best on champions who build lots of health, which is contradictory, so perhaps it and similar items should be redesigned to always work better on squishies, instead of incidentally having more tank-appropriate scalings.

The Cane MasterSep 4, 20162 votes

Giving all tank champions high base values would also mean they had quite an advantage in the early game

This doesn't necessarily have to happen. For example, instead of putting the full impact of the buffs at level 1, you could buff tanky champions' stat growth, which would have minimal early-game impact. Tank champions also tend to build tanky items very early in the game, too, so even a level 1 buff.

Yes I agree, I meant stats per level, not level 1 base stats. Sorry for a possible misunderstanding.

agbudarSep 3, 20167 votes

i would do both. have some form of flat armor (that does not scale with these new tank items % scaling) like item 3001 item 3157 are i feel not really offenders to what is wrong currently with league its the fact that an ekko can go with a build like this: item 3078 item 3065 item 3009 item 3742 item 3026 dish out serious damage be super hard to kill and in general have way too much on his plate.

the problem is not items.

its the fact that certain champions have overloaded kits that would make the OLD OLD olaf proud/jealious or run for his money. (remember full health stacking olaf critting for 700 dmage?) well ekko basically does that now yassuo basically does that now. olaf was an imobile champion.

if this isn't champion bias i dont know what is.

The Cane MasterSep 3, 20163 votes

I completely agree, and I'd support doing the same with health values as well and extending this to all champions intended to be tanky, including juggernauts. Right now, champions intended to be squishy get far too much values from tanky stats, because they get very similar returns compared to actual tanks and bruisers, on whom these items are meant to be balanced. and , for example, have 2091 health and 84.4 base armor, and 1940 health and 78 base armor at level 18 respectively, meaning they can get pretty much the same benefits from, say, , except needs the item to be able to operate in late-game fights, whereas can just pile it on top of his tremendous innate reach, mobility, CC and sticking power. If got a massive boost to his health growth and DMP had its tanky stats turned into percentage amplifiers, there'd be a much more significant difference. Right now, unfortunately, despite the multiplicative nature of resistances, tanky items are more liable to erase base stat differences than they are to amplify them, or truly value them as a meaningful component to a champion's power expression.

Another issue with "tank items" right now is that they're not actually tank items, they're tanky items: most items with tanky stats don't really reward the wielder for doing tank things, like taking damage, sticking to targets to apply maximum CC or disrupting multiple enemies at a time, they just make them less likely to die. Not only has this made differentiation between tanks and fighters extremely difficult (they pick largely the same items, and while the Juggernaut update game tanky DPS champions far more options, we still don't have "pure" tank options, or items that would be explicitly unattractive to most fighters), it's also allowed many champions who weren't intended to be tanky to get the maximum effect from these items, since there are no real downsides for them besides a relative falloff in damage. In fact, many squishy champions probably get more benefits, because their core weakness is their intended squishiness, a weakness they can remove with tanky items, whereas tanky champions are generally balanced around an innate lack of reach or mobility, which can't be removed completely by itemization (imagine if several items each gave permanent flat movement speed that could stack up to the hundreds, or if melee champions could purchase an item that permanently gave them +400 attack range).

Basically, right now "squishy" champions are the only champions in the game who can completely "solve" their core intended weakness through itemization, and despite kit changes they still often don't make sufficient tradeoffs. Even when champions do get brought in line, though, that often comes at a cost in reliability: every time a champion has their bases toned down and their damage scalings increased, they become increasingly binary and reliant on items to be effective at all, so even if they're not running a cheesy tank build they're still not in the best spot. Riot's balance team is in this unfortunate situation where they often have to choose between a champion that's either too binary or too good at running tanky builds, and until itemization itself receives changes, such as the ones mentioned in the OP, that problem's never going to go away.

AlienPrimateSep 3, 20165 votes

Tanks above 50% win rate:

Amumu Skarner Sejuani Sion Malphite Zac Rammus Galio Singed Blitzcrank Leona Volibear

Tanks below 50% win rate:

Braum Nautilus Maokai Shen Chogath Gragas Alistar DrMundo TahmKench Nunu

I don't see a problem.

FantasySniperSep 4, 20166 votes

Tanks above a 50% win rate with more than a 5% play rate:

Amumu Taric † Malphite Zac (A total of 4, 3 without supports.)

Tanks below a 50% win rate with more than a 5% play rate:

Leona † Braum † Nautilus Alistar † Shen Gragas TahmKench † (A total of 7, 4 without supports)

Tanks above a 50% win rate with less than a 5% play rate:

Skarner Sejuani Sion Singed Rammus Volibear Galio (A total of 7)

Tanks below a 50% win rate with less than a 5% play rate:

Poppy Garen Maokai Chogath Nasus DrMundo (A total of 6)

† These champions are exclusively played as support, and thus it is expected that they have a higher average play rate.

It looks to me that there are more tanks being played well situationally than generally. A lot of fighters that can practically become tanks (Like, Darius, Wukong, Trundle etc) would project the same pattern.

cinomenapplebaeSep 3, 20164 votes

item 3083 i wish it was changed, It just feels weak when you could just build armor, still have lots of health and just better off stats

FantasySniperSep 4, 20164 votes

I thought the same thing when they reworked regen. Why not do other stats the same way? After all, there's champions like Ryze that (used to) ruin mana itemization for most everyone else, it would keep squishies from building tank, so on and so forth the many issues we have with the current system.

The problem is that values for health and armor are all completely arbitrary. (And MR is standardized and homogeneous)

Mages start with low armor as a rule, but then their growth rates are all over the place. Zed and other assassins have more armor than some tanks. Fighters on average have more health than tanks.

You'd have to completely rework the health-resistance system to accomplish this. Not saying it wouldn't be a better system - in fact I think it would much healthier - but there's a lot of work involved that Riot will most definitely get wrong and take their sweet-ass time fixing.

Theoretically this is how it should work:

The various classes would have defense levels based on a spectrum; Vanguards, Wardens, Juggernauts, Divers, Skirmishers, Assassins, Marksmen, Battle Mages, Enchanters, Burst Mages, Artillery Mages, Disruptors. Hybrids would be somewhere between their subclasses. (See the list for a refresher) Items would include a flat value and a percentage value that works off of the base. This will curb the issue with stats being lower early and higher late. When a tank builds a tank item, it will scale with their base stats, meaning that if an assassin built the same item, they wouldn't obtain the same level of durability. Runes and masteries that interact with the health-resistance system should probably be left untouched. (Or maybe even buffed a little)

MordepoolSep 4, 20164 votes

Frankly all % based damage needs a nerf

TyrekGoldenspearSep 4, 20164 votes

They could give tanks Armor and MR scaling instead of AD\AP Scaling (like Taric)

That way they wouldn't be pressured into buying damage items to make a difference and the tank items themselves wouldn't need to add AD or AP.

ItsOrvalSep 4, 20164 votes

I always like how forum posts like this with 2.5k+ views and 140+ comments dont get replies from Riot. But posts with -2 likes and 10 views get replies from Riot.

JalkanSep 3, 20163 votes

No way, that would make them waayyy too strong. If you give them more base resists across the map then that just lets them build more real offensive items. Then we'd have Season 2 all over agin.

Teridax68Sep 3, 20164 votes

Season 2's metagolem happened because bruisers had an item that let them build huge amounts of raw health and AD at the same time (i.e. Atma's Impaler), thereby letting them ramp up far too hard without any real tradeoffs. By contrast, the Juggernaut update happened last year, gave champions a ton of tanky DPS items with both offensive and defensive stats, and the only real abusers of such items have been squishy champions, i.e. marksmen, assassins and light fighters. The issue wasn't with base stats, it was with items, and if you check the patch notes around that time many bruisers actually received base stat buffs, not nerfs, after tanky itemization itself received substantial reductions in the stats it provided.

A major difference between most offensive and defensive items is that "pure" offensive items tend to rely on each other to be truly effective, beyond just multiplicative stats (Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver both need you to build crit, for example), and whereas tanky champions mostly have their tankiness scale through innate stats, offensive champions often scale through abilities and in-kit effects, which can be much more easily adjusted. If a champion happens to scale too well with AP, for example, you can easily just nerf their AP scalings, and no champion out there will scale excessively on raw AD purely because of their autoattacks, at least not without the influence of some part of their kit, which could then be adjusted. OP's suggestion would make items and champions easier to balance overall, not harder.

GorgiolioSep 3, 20163 votes

There are still a lot of tanks that are strong. Sion, Malphite, Illaoi, Renekton, and Darius to name some of the relatively strong ones. If they can survive Ekko, Yasuo, or Irelia and even get a lead on them... well they stay difficult to take down. Yasuo is getting his ult pen changed into crit only. Ekko is generally not as effective as actual tank champion who have hard cc. Malphite, due to his E and Q, is a good example of someone who would excel even without hard cc.

I don't think anything needs a rework, the problem is when you have certain champions that are too strong due to weird implications. (Why does trinity force give 40% attack speed??? I don't think people realize how game breaking that is on ekko/yas/irelia when it already does so much.) If those "certain champions" get toned down then all tanks get big and buffed up, well guess what happens then. Only those tanks are effective at being tanky. What do you do about bruisers and juggernauts? I don't think anything is wrong right now, Riot is just taking an insane amount of time to respond to things that are problematic.

Anyone should have access to tank stats, but a particular set of champs shouldn't be able to use a single item (cough trinity force cough) to supplement all their missing damage. There's a reason you don't see someone like Kassadin being able to do what ekko or yasuo does, even though he is mobile and has an ability that makes great use of trinity force and getting tanky. (I actually haven't tried it, but if it does work then it might be a trinity problem or at the very least I'm extremely wrong.)

Teridax68Sep 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Anyone should have access to tank stats

Including champions for whom a lack of raw durability is meant to be an intended weakness? The OP isn't proposing to remove access to tank stats altogether, either, they're proposing to amplify the differences between tank items on "true" tanky champions (tanks, and imo juggernauts and divers as well) and those same items on champions meant to be squishy, so in the end the intent isn't really to buff tanks (you could just balance the stats of tanky champions and tanky items around each other, as should be the case now), but to nerf tank builds on squishy champions, which are a real and current problem. I agree that Trinity Force does too much, and needs to move away from its bruiser-friendly damage niche and function properly as an AD spellweaver item, though like tanky items, it's not a universally abusive pick even now, and the problem can't be traced purely back to it (DMP, for example, is another item that's notorious for being overpicked on melee champions intended to be squishy).

SkiasSep 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

There are still a lot of tanks that are strong. Sion, Malphite, Illaoi, Renekton, and Darius to name some of the relatively strong ones. If they can survive Ekko, Yasuo, or Irelia and even get a lead on them... well they stay difficult to take down. Yasuo is getting his ult pen changed into crit only. Ekko is generally not as effective as actual tank champion who have hard cc. Malphite, due to his E and Q, is a good example of someone who would excel even without hard cc.

I don't think anything needs a rework, the problem is when you have certain champions that are too strong due to weird implications. (Why does trinity force give 40% attack speed??? I don't think people realize how game breaking that is on ekko/yas/irelia when it already does so much.) If those "certain champions" get toned down then all tanks get big and buffed up, well guess what happens then. Only those tanks are effective at being tanky. What do you do about bruisers and juggernauts? I don't think anything is wrong right now, Riot is just taking an insane amount of time to respond to things that are problematic.

Anyone should have access to tank stats, but a particular set of champs shouldn't be able to use a single item (cough trinity force cough) to supplement all their missing damage. There's a reason you don't see someone like Kassadin being able to do what ekko or yasuo does, even though he is mobile and has an ability that makes great use of trinity force and getting tanky. (I actually haven't tried it, but if it does work then it might be a trinity problem or at the very least I'm extremely wrong.)

You just fired off like a bunch of Juggernaut names. Tanks are Sejuani, Rammus, Galio, Taric (although he's partially a fighter too), Braum, Leona. These champions are not Juggernauts.

Pika FoxSep 4, 20161 votes

Issue is tanks cant have high base resistances because of their kit.

This would also pigeonhole champs far more in what they need to build, as bruisers and other tanks that do go top typically have 2 build paths; one while ahead and one while behind, the behind one being more defensive. This could end up making one far more optimal in all situations, making overall game health and variance worse.