Gragas needs to get nerfed

The Cane Master·Aug 20, 2017·35 votes·3,124 views

This is not even funny, ever since Riot buffed he's been almost in every game. Not only these official stats say that he has 80% pick rate in LCS but also greatest coaches like Zikz and SKT Kkoma advise their junglers to play whenever possible. And why wouldn't they, he has high sustain, shit ton of AOE cc, mobility, combos with flash, innate tankiness and base damage, even waveclear. As far as I'm concerned, I don't see any weak side to this champion, does anyone?

43 Comments

PerazAug 20, 201730 votes

Gragas is really really strong, but the most bullshit thing about him is his e hitbox. It's just simply ridiculous and should've been changed a long time ago.

TwinkieProAug 20, 201714 votes

downvoted without anyone even checking. His E hit box extends outside of him, so any nerfs would be justified.

The Cane MasterAug 20, 20174 votes

{quoted}

downvoted without anyone even checking. His E hit box extends outside of him, so any nerfs would be justified.

That's how internet downvote brigades work anyways. 90% of my boards/reddit posts Riot implements in a few patches and most of them get buried in downvotes.

ArakadiaAug 20, 20172 votes

Looks like in the video above at 1:10 you can see another example of this.

The Cane MasterAug 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Gragas is really really strong, but the most bullshit thing about him is his e hitbox. It's just simply ridiculous and should've been changed a long time ago.

Also he dashes way longer than the cursor shows, maybe even longer than official dash range.

TwinkieProAug 20, 20171 votes

Technically, his dash range is correct as he moves from start to finish along that line perfectly. What the indicator doesn't show is his actual hitbox when moving. He still needs a nerf to that fat ass of his.

Zone of EndlessAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Gragas is really really strong, but the most bullshit thing about him is his e hitbox. It's just simply ridiculous and should've been changed a long time ago.

hitbox is a problem in general.

Just take a look at hook skills.

inplaneAug 20, 20177 votes

Anyone who says Gragas doesn't need nerfs clearly haven't seen a decent Gragas player who knows how to summoner 4 E R to knock the entire enemy backline under tower. Not only is that combo nigh unstoppable, but it's ridiculously hard to telegraph if you don't have full and I mean FULL vision of him at ALL TIMES. It's not rocket science to know why he's an LCS staple since forever.

Wet DrymanAug 21, 20171 votes

That's why his E flash interaction needs to go, make his E lose hard CC (actual CC or its duration) or make it AoE to Shen levels that he can only disrupt one person and not the entire team. Gragas kit has plenty of counterplay on it's own (there are minor issues like E for melees is undodgeable or you can't do anything against his passive but buy grevious wounds item) but it's rendered useless solely by Flash E.

inplaneAug 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pc8ZjE8,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-08-21T10:13:19.535+0000)

That's why his E flash interaction needs to go, make his E lose hard CC (actual CC or its duration) or make it AoE to Shen levels that he can only disrupt one person and not the entire team. Gragas kit has plenty of counterplay on it's own (there are minor issues like E for melees is undodgeable or you can't do anything against his passive but buy grevious wounds item) but it's rendered useless solely by Flash E.

Not sure why Riot decided to rework his E into an AoE Quinn E with buttloads of more functionality. Before Gragas 's rework in Season 3 (I think), his E only inflicted an AoE slow not an AoE knockup/displacement, which was a LOT more tolerable. I think it should be changed back to an AoE slow because nothing is more frustrating than getting stunned out of nowhere and accepting your death because of his absurd summoner 4 combo. At least you can react to him if it were a slow.

Wet DrymanAug 21, 20172 votes

Not sure why Riot decided to rework his E into an AoE E with buttloads of more functionality.

Their design policy of that time, they gave him any means to make him go in melee instead of playing from range and be a Jungler/Top champion. It is kept now because their new design policy for Tanks is just "have shit tones of CC".

Having slow on E is great change because it solves most of his problems for example:

making interacting with him impossible because his displacement negates dashes or your attempts of punishing him (he will just walk away while you're removed from game for 1.5 second without much effort involved)
disrupting half or entire team every 5 minutes with flash without counterplay better than Malphite's R while also being able to displace them with R

And apart of solving problems it adds to interactivity because if he wants to have easy time landing R properly he needs to apply slow from E and slowed champion didn't lost already as he can slightly reposition himself to be displaced in better for him position or just blink/dash out of it. And Gragas himself can still predict where that person will move and aim his ult accordingly. It's win-win situation. My only concern is that it will feel samey with his Q and will make him a slow abundant champion. That's why imo his Q should apply different form of utility (and it doesn't have to be CC).

AlmightyAug 20, 20174 votes

I just hope Riot doesn't decide to make this year's Victorious skin for Gragas. This damn MACK truck has enough skins already.

Almighty.

StompmeAug 20, 20174 votes

He's way too reliable and safe. Longer cd's and higher mana costs would be enough to bring him down.

The Cane MasterAug 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He's way too reliable and safe. Longer cd's and higher mana costs would be enough to bring him down.

Imo the buffs to his passive and Q slow duration were unnecessary. First one is because it's for free, at least similar passives like Nasus 's or Warwick 's require them to auto attack, Gragas has no conditions (except for mana that he never runs out). About Q, it makes sense to slow longer when charged/shorter when instantly popped, not for 2 seconds at all times. The amount of slow already works as suggested, so both should be scaling with charge time.

TL;DR: Revert the buffs to his passive and Q slow duration, he was perfectly fine (balanced) before these changes.

Wet DrymanAug 20, 20173 votes

He should get some since a long time but only thing they did this season was nerfing CD on ult which wasn't a problem in the first place and barely did anything to him.

13900 EssenceAug 20, 20172 votes

I don't think he NEEDS to get nerfed.

I think that if they are to nerf the top meta jg picks, they need to take into account that he will be overbearing and balance him ahead of time.

Realistically, his winrate is lower than every other tank/bruiser jungler right now. The only concerning thing is his playrate, which is understandable with how easy he is to pick up if you are inexperienced in the role.

WoonStruckAug 21, 20171 votes

That's the thing...Gragas actually isn't that easy. He's just so overloaded since his 'rework' that it doesn't matter.

Most people don't remember back when he was pick or ban in season 1 or 2 and had a sub-40% winrate.

KloqdqAug 21, 20172 votes

Gragas needs a rework to be real. He has too many strengthes, is a true generalist and has very few weaknesses. He needs to be built from the ground up again.

The Cane MasterAug 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Gragas needs a rework to be real. He has too many strengthes, is a true generalist and has very few weaknesses. He needs to be built from the ground up again.

Not really, just revert the buffs to his passive heal, base armor and Q slow duration. Before these he was perfectly fine, balanced to say.

KloqdqAug 21, 20172 votes

That is one way to go about it.

Wet DrymanAug 21, 20171 votes

His kit isn't plain up terrible to rebuild him from scratch, actually considering all these outdated shits like half of Mage, most of Support and nearly entire Marksmen roster he steps up in counterplay, uniqueness, diversity in build paths and playstyles and skill expression. His problem is just as you said having too much in his kit, it's basically Bruiser abilities filled with Tank tools because of reasons. His kit can work no problems with some of these tools removed/working differently and number tuning.

KloqdqAug 21, 20171 votes

Yeah that's my issue with him. Riot won't touch him for some reason even though his been such a powerhouse for so long. I hope he gets touched on in the near future. On the point of "rework" I more think small scale rather than starting from scratch.

Elkington VIAug 22, 20172 votes

He seems like a threat, no matter who's playing him as of late. If they're actually good with him though, there's little you can really do unless you're using a champion with equal mobility. I had no idea he was buffed, was wondering why I was seeing him tear things up so often. I just figured they were really good players and it was just me being terrible.

The0nlyLordREMAug 23, 20172 votes

I think his E Flash mechanic needs to be changed, there is ZERO counterplay to it, given the high E hitbox on top of that. You see him E from 400 units away and you can either flash instantly (in which case he doesnt use flash and you die to the next gank) or not flash and get E + R back & die. I think the E + Flash thing may need to be removed completely. Flash E is fine since it allows to flash in counterplay. E + flash has no counterplay.

SirTeemoMushroomAug 20, 20171 votes

he is not that strong anyway.. if you play him FULL ap he is obviously going to deal damage ... like Syndra Annie Fizz Lux
Most people play him as tank ... + he is not so popular pick PLUS you added a one trick gragas main ... he is obviously going to make plays.. not everybody can do plays without knowledge of the champion

Wet DrymanAug 20, 20178 votes

But damage isn't his main problem, it's the Tank Gragas that is ridiculously strong (and most of the time has been since he was dumped into Tank class), he is just too effective with how ridiculous AoE and CC his E has (even more ridiculous with flash) on pair with tankiness (brief 2.5 second damage reduction and passive sustain). At this point I think he should get a minirework or modernization like WW got because it's same scenario: they nerf him and crawls back to the top pick somehow after some time or he is so underwhelming that he gets buffs (and gets to the top once more). His abilities as they are aren't bad but he needs some of his tools tied to them gone or work differently.

And by the way, Gragas is veeery popular in both High Elo (he has 21% pick rate with almost 50% win rate) and LCS (as OP linked in his post).

SirTeemoMushroomAug 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pc8ZjE8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-08-20T10:25:20.682+0000)

But damage isn't his main problem, it's the Tank Gragas that is ridiculously strong (and most of the time has been since he was dumped into Tank class), he is just too effective with how ridiculous AoE and CC his E has (even more ridiculous with flash) on pair with tankiness (brief 2.5 second damage reduction and passive sustain). At this point I think he should get a minirework or modernization like WW got because it's same scenario: they nerf him and crawls back to the top pick somehow after some time or he is so underwhelming that he gets buffs (and gets to the top once more). His abilities as they are aren't bad but he needs some of his tools tied to them gone or work differently.

And by the way, Gragas is veeery popular in both High Elo (he has 21% pick rate with almost 50% win rate) and LCS (as OP linked in his post).

he is strong because people play him 12/18/0 instead of 0/12/18 , and so he has some burst damage

Wet DrymanAug 20, 20173 votes

That doesn't explain his pick/ban status in pro play where no one plays him 12/18/0

SirTeemoMushroomAug 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deafsinger,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9pc8ZjE8,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-20T10:31:56.162+0000)

That doesn't explain his pick/ban status in pro play where no one plays him 12/18/0

you can't compare pro games with regular ranked games man ..

Wet DrymanAug 20, 20176 votes

I've checked his most popular builds and masteries for Solo Q: http://lolalytics.com/champion/Gragas/ his masteries are literally 12/0/18, he's not strong because of things you mentioned, he is strong on his own. Setup where people run 12/18/0 are literally builds with 0.75% pick rate and 47% win rate.