Attempt to have two Black Cleavers (with identical armor shred passive) coexist

LilxPaprika·Apr 15, 2016·3 votes·1,470 views

http://i.imgur.com/eGZoDYa.jpg

tried to do something similar to what was done for LW but for bruisers. also wanted to have a way to bring back old blackcleaver so phage doesn't overlap with triforce.

this is handy if you dont need the extra cdr or phage. Shred items are pretty important and should be flexible. 20% cdr black cleaver made more sense with the old triforce but now the new triforce has 10% cdr on it. say I got triforce and frozenheart. and I want black cleaver to help deal with the popularity of IBG sunfire builds.

cdr runes are usually sufficient.

9 Comments

ChaddyFantomeApr 15, 20161 votes

You need to give a stats, reason to buy it that amounts to more than just being the perfect item you want it to be without it looking redundant with the current one.

The LW upgrades trade GW for HP Shreadding Power.

This would need to do something similar.

Personally, I feel BC is more of an Assassin item, so maybe have one that shreds flat Armor and another that shreads %Armor?

kile147Apr 15, 20161 votes

It's a bruiser item, not an assassin item. That's why it gives health and %armor shred after multiple hits, which makes it good for extended engagements.

ChaddyFantomeApr 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's a bruiser item, not an assassin item. That's why it gives health and %armor shred after multiple hits, which makes it good for extended engagements.

And yet few Bruisers use it and pretty much every Assassin does.

It has had a a history of being used on assasins. Im not questioning whether it was originally a Bruiser item or even if it still is, but it very clearly has home with assasins now too and riot sees this.

Just like how GhostBlade was reworked into an assassn item.

That is irrelevant to my point tho, which is that your suggestion doesn't provide enough intensive t have two types of BC.

kile147Apr 15, 20161 votes

BC is literally first rush core item on the juggernauts. Assassins get it because it gives AD+CDR. Right now the only items that have AD+CDR are Ghostblade (10%), Death's Dance (10%), BC (20%), Trinity (10%), Essence Reaver (10%-30%) and the last two don't tend to synergize with assassins well because they have crit. That means that in order to get good CDR assassins need to either take like 20% in runes, or get BC. That doesn't mean that health and armor shred are bad stats on assassins, but they aren't optimal and I'm guessing that if there was another AD+CDR item for them we wouldn't see BC used as much.

ChaddyFantomeApr 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

BC is literally first rush core item on the juggernauts.

Garen, Morde, Skarner don't. Only Illaoi and Darius . That is 3/5 Juggernauts that don't get it. If you count champs like, Nasus, Shyvanna and Udyr , that is even less.

Assassins get it because it gives AD+CDR. Right now the only items that have AD+CDR are Ghostblade (10%), Death's Dance (10%), BC (20%), Trinity (10%), Essence Reaver (10%-30%) and the last two don't tend to synergize with assassins well because they have crit.

Assasins can and do make good use of Crit. They just prefer these other items because they give more of an immediate payout compared to Crit, which is more unreliable and needs other items to be adequately effective.

item 3812 is actually widely bought by Assasins and Bruisers alike.

That means that in order to get good CDR assassins need to either take like 20% in runes, or get BC.

item 3142 item 3812 alone nets you 20% CDR, which is just fine for what an Assassin needs to do with their spells in a rotation. The reason BC gets Bought is because of the shred and the phage passive on physical hit which gives them sticking power and increases their mobility

That doesn't mean that health and armor shred are bad stats on assassins, but they aren't optimal and I'm guessing that if there was another AD+CDR item for them we wouldn't see BC used as much.

The Health isn't even all that much on the item. it used to give more. That said, it isn't unappreciated, especially with the wealth of Magic damage dealers they will be fighting mid lane. The Shred is one of the primary reasons it gets bought, especially since it has been a staple on Assassins since S3, at which point it didn't even give as much CDR and had Armor Pen on it.

ALL OF THAT SAID, it still missed the point of my post. You need to provide a reason that is more substantial for 2 versions of clever to exist.

kile147Apr 15, 20161 votes

Garen does get BC, just not first item. Morde not being able to use BC is one of his major design flaws as far as I am concerned.

Udyr, Shyvana, and Trundle are dueling juggernauts who benefit more from on-hit, and would probably build a cleaver item if it gave AS and flat stacking armor pen. This is exactly why another cleaver like that should not exist, because screw these guys.

LilxPaprikaApr 15, 20161 votes

k, when coming up with said item there are 3 things that we need:

Have it so armor shred is within reach maybe as a component in the build path and or have a 3000 gold item. as discussed here
An armor pen item with less or no cdr. so no matter what removing 10% cdr at least needs to be part of the change.
Preferably no phage so it does not overlap with Triforce

If we want them to build off a shared item this would likely be kept intact: 10% cooldown reduction = 300 Gold since black cleaver needs 10% cdr in its build path, unless we create a 10% cdr 300 gold item.

both items could also share 300 health = 800 Gold

So leaves us with the damage portion to play with.

I actually really think the old maw passive would work here. start with like 25 dmg UNIQUE PASSIVE: +1 attack damage for every 2% missing health. or 2.5% if too much.

i think this stands out enough to differentiate itself. and it would suit the class that's likely building it.

or could be a completely new item.

one thing is for sure it needs a defensive component to it, otherwise might as well just pick lw.

NekusenApr 15, 20161 votes

i dont get your point, item 3071 already gives 20% CDR if you want to build that way, you could, wasting 10%cdr isnt the end of the world

you could also just change item 3110 for other armor item.

also, as AD you have at least 10 cooldown items to chose from if you want to get tanky.

LilxPaprikaApr 15, 20161 votes

there are other examples. like warrior IBG, and TBC already 50%. on say wukong. some kits really don't need all that much cdr sometimes its better to be able to be more effective on your first rotation of spells then doing it over two rotations. Or if you want to be a stronger 1v1 duelist and your mostly auto attack based, like nocturne, tryndamere, yi, irelia, xin.
they'll still likely have 20 to 25% cdr from other items on some champions that's enough.

say you want lucidity boots with ghost because you want ghost up as often as possible on like olaf for example. Sure you can go swiftness, but this allows room for preference. game should be fun not overly restrictive.

There's a right amount of 'cut the fat' and allow for room to play with. I think item 3071 is too niche for the important role it plays.

you may choose to have cdr runes if you want the cdr earlier in the game, say for jungle clear speed etc.