I'm tired of the excuses

Jefftiffy··4 votes·744 views

Champs are not worth ignoring when they are have a "weak" early game. Champs are not worth ignoring if their only weakness is fighting when there are at least 3 champs fighting it to even have a chance of killing it when it blows your team up.

For example MasterYi . 1 or 2 kills and he is automatically able to 1v1 anybody and 1v2 anyone. He can vulture kills and all of the sudden be a massive threat. #1 for counter play removing crits from Alpha Strike. #2 allow him to be AS slowed. Doesn't hit him that hard before you can react and gives some more champs a chance against him.

Nasus . It's hard to push him out of lane with most of the champs. You need someone like an adc or Bard/Gnar to shove him out of top lane and keep him away because the second he gets around 100 stacks he can start to ignore most tops due to having 15% free lifesteal at that point. I honestly think his wither needs to last a little bit shorter or have a slightly longer CD late game (to give you a window to escape from him).

Nidalee . I'm not sure I even have to explain this one. Weak pre-3 then facerolls if she lands one spear. "Weak" now because Riot said tanks are strong. Needs some damage trimmed off the spears and should be fine. Prefferably the scaling should be 40%->30% and 120%->90% scaling. Trims excess damage off her spears and will make her still be able to delete squishies if she goes in. Also, heal scaling 50%->30% with AS buff removed (why is it even there?).

Malzahar . The second he hits 6 you die. He ults you with visions on his pool and you are almost guaranteed to be dead. If you could at least time a dash to escape his ult it would be ok, but it will follow you no matter how far you run. Base damage from 250/400/550->175/325/475. Still allows him to destroy people in 1v1s. But at least he can no longer 100-0 people who are on par with him early game.

Cassiopeia can blow you up the second she hits 3 because she just needs 1 Q to machine gun you to death and doesn't fall off due to her passive. Also, I want to note, her role is not supposed to be a machine gun mage. Cass is supposed to be a damage over time poison mage make her back into that role. Although, she is pretty dealable late game, the only way to kill her is to stay out of range until she fucks up.

Reasoning: Jax Awhile back (early S4/end of S3) was a perma ban because he had a "weak" early game and was weak to teams and ramped up into a monster late game. Riot finally figured out he wasn't really that weak and fixed him. Right now he is still in a good spot, and may even start to see competitive play now that tanks are on the rise (because he does well against them). Vayne S3 used to be a monster because she still had the same if not better late game but a much better early game due to her pin applying up to 2 stacks of silver bolts and could fire one to the target while flying. They removed the first stack on the E and left the pin procing silver bolts as well as removed her ability to shoot a shot immediately after firing it. This actually fixed her and put her as a good example of a hyper carry with a window to shut down. Thresh I don't know if I even need to explain how much he has gutted because he has too much "utility". Idk why people still play him so much. He has his hook and lantern and unless his carry can actually use his hook it is a waste for nothing other than maybe peeling. Flay can be situationally useful, but rarely is. His box is laughable now, does full damage to only one target while having a slow that most champs can ignore even though it is 99% (dashes OP). He also had his shield on his W nerfed hard (like 10% more shielding to only 2 targets instead of 5).

This is not meant as a rant. This is a legitimate problem with the game. Riot shoves stuff under the rug and ignores these champs while the player base doesn't seem to care and is more focused on bandwagoning the same few champs for months at a time when it really is a problem spurred by poor choice in item balance.

Honestly, the solution may even be item variety. If we get more choice in items with actual actives I feel like even some of these champs and future problem champs could be more bearable in their current state.

10 Comments

Grompish1 votes

Ha, I appreciate threads like this. You better prepare for the downvotes! Not necessarily Malzahar though because his ult has quite a long cooldown and he is borderline useless without it. If he gets ganked, he has basically no way to escape other than flash. Easily beaten. Nasus though, I can agree. He is one of my mains for top, and I am confident no matter how countered I am that I will beat my enemy. (Yes, this includes Teemo). If they push me to tower, I ping my jungler and wait until the jungler is near and I wither them.. They will not get away even with flash because I will catch them with a second wither. I don't have to really itemize too hard, because if the AP is a problem I will simply rush spirit visage. Once I hit 6, I am usually a few hundred stacks in and I can either completely ignore the enemy or just kill them nonstop, lol... ESPECIALLY teemo. Ugh... So damn easy to beat. Either way, he's basically a hyper-tank assassin that can make the entire ADC role absolutely non-existent with wither. After 20 minutes, 400+ stacks is my goal and I hit it probably 85% of the time. That's lots of damage for an attack that can be on a <5 second CD. Cass.... Meh. Silence/stun/cc... She's a champ that you will probably shout out "THAT IS SO FCKING OP!" If you get hit with ONE q, because she will literally E you nonstop until you are dead or she is out of mana (You will die). Nidalee is pretty stupid at the moment though as well. She has that stupid double jump that makes me want to flip out. She has heals that increase attack speed, she has 7 abilities (Three of which don't cost anything), She has traps which will show you and DOT you for a certain period of time(Not to mention that they show the area on placement), ridiculous mobility, her spear is such little cost vs reward ("Miss 80% of your spears? Doesn't matter because the 20% they hit you got free kills!"). If you can't tell, I basically feel like Nidalee is ridiculous as far as what her kit delivers. Also, can we get an honorable Riven mention?? :) Can we give her a normal shield that builds off of AP like every other champ in the game except malphite? Actually, can we choose between a jump or a shield? A free-casted shield that is based off of AD and has an incredibly short cooldown... Oh, it also comes with a dash. Nailed it!

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

The problem is the perception of a strong lategame more than an actual strong lategame. Nasus, for example, is actualy extremely overrated lategane and gets kited to all hell. Master Yi, likelwise, is extremely overrated lategame and gets killed very easily lategame and nowhere near as strong as people make him out to be. Malzahar is also extremely overrated lategame and is so immobile that few good teams will allow him to get into proper position to use his full kit. Nid does need a nerf so I will give you that one.

Also, cass was always suppose to be a machinegun type champion focused around her e. She can use some small changes in her numbers but she is in a pretty good spot.

She was never supposed to be a machine gun champ. Her E was bonus damage before. About 50-70% of her damage came from her poison now it's more of 85% E 10% ult 5% Q/W.

And the thing is Yi is not overrated late game. He has 2 resets in his kit. 1 of his abilities makes him relatively tanky and another gives him free crits combined with the ability to not be targeted (considerings 95% of spells are skillshots or targeted, that means only 5% of spells can actually hit him while he is doing it). Sure Yi needs a little bit of farm, but the second he gets his 1st full non-jungle item other than boots he is a major threat. His ult is ridiculous how much it gives him when the rest of his kit is already enough to make him strong. They really need to make his ult his power window so that if it's down you can fight him. (his power window is anytime his Q is up currently).

Nasus is just really hard to fight. If you shut him down, your team can just not push and screw you over. The second he has 300+ stacks he is a major threat. He will begin to wreck team fights or split push towers faster than you can rotate.

Malzahar doesn't have a weakpoint other than pre-2. The second he gets visions and silence he is a threat for the rest of the game and can nuke people as soon as he hits 6. Sure he is immobile but does it matter if the person he is fighting doesn't get a chance to retaliate? Sure if he gets ganked he is dead, but that is true for many other champs similar to him. Broad weaknesses aren't really a champ specific weakness.

The problem with this game is that most champs do not have their own real weakness other than ones based on their class. Melee champs tend to be weak to people able to kite them/CC lock them. Rangers are weak to melee in range/CC. Bruisers are weak to ADCs early game. Assassins are weak to drawn out fights (something near impossible to fix until mana is addressed).

Only champs I can think of with drawbacks are Ziggs. Spammable damage and long range but high costs. Xerath, spammable damage and long range but high costs and his only real mana sustain requires him to move close range. Caitlyn, strong early game with a decent fall off.

I am in no way saying these champs are OP, but they do need changes to be made more fair to play against with non-counter picks. Just saying "Oh it's, your fault for not bringing ____" is stupid because what if they were last pick or in blind pick. There is no way to deal with it if you do not counter pick. I mean even Malzahar is really safe, he is only really weak to ganks in lane phase currently.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that none of them require specific counterpicks. They are all extremely overrated lategame, champions like Nasus, yi, and malzahar will all fall to any general meta team because of how immobile malzahar and nasus are and how squishy yi is. No matter how many stacks nasus gets, he will still be kited lategame. No matter how damage malzahar has, he gets destoryed by any mobile champion. No matter how much damage yi has, he gets killed by pretty much any team that isn't specifically picking the weakest champions they can think of. Hell you mention caitlyn as someone who "falls off" and yet she is stronger than all three of them ultralategame due to her superior range and seiging power.

Doesn't matter if she is "better" late game if Yi can force people to fight him 2/3v1 and force lopsided team fights. Nasus can do the same except maybe a little bit close to the 2v1 side. Malzahar is the same. You need at least 3 to kill him and not trade kills because he can blow you up the second you get in his range.

There are no real counter picks to them. Yi only really has Jax, Malzahar, WW, and extreme late game Udyr. Other than that he can only really be taken down by teams.

Nasus is annoying because even if you shut him down, if your team is behind and you are ahead he will catch back up. You literally have about a 10 minute window to end if you shut him down until your shutdown doesn't matter.

Malzahar just nukes mid in general, and there really isn't a way to kill him. Nothing counters a high damage ranged suppress when he can also cast 2 spells on you right before he starts it. Sure you can QSS, but that requires you to sink 1.5k early for little to no stats.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Yi is overrated late game. He spikes once late early-game (Bilge+Devourer) and spikes again late mid-game (BoRK+Devourer+Boots+1500 gold item like BF sword or warden's mail). If he fails to capitalize on these two spikes he falls off. Take it from a guy who has 300+ ranked games in high gold with Yi over the past year and a half.

Voluug131 votes

Are really complaing about Malzahar? The dude that can be utterly countered with one item item 3140 , and has low range? Gigantical mana costs, instapushes lane and is immobile? And with a bad lategame thanks to bad teamfighting and auto stunning Ult?

Unless you are instapicking a melee assassin like Zed or Katarina in him, Malzahar is easy to keep away and poke the void out of him. He has bad range in his spells, W is useless without R and has no sustain.

Anyone like Velkoz, Lux, Syndra, Xerath, Azyr, Annie, Anivia, bla bla bla can easily defeat him.

Yes, counterpicking is part of counterplaying, despite what Riot spoonfeeds players those days.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Are really complaing about Malzahar? The dude that can be utterly countered with one item item 3140 , and has low range? Gigantical mana costs, instapushes lane and is immobile? And with a bad lategame thanks to bad teamfighting and auto stunning Ult?

Unless you are instapicking a melee assassin like Zed or Katarina in him, Malzahar is easy to keep away and poke the void out of him. He has bad range in his spells, W is useless without R and has no sustain.

Anyone like Velkoz, Lux, Syndra, Xerath, Azyr, Annie, Anivia, bla bla bla can easily defeat him.

Yes, counterpicking is part of counterplaying, despite what Riot spoonfeeds players those days.

Counterpicking is not counter playing. Pressing a button before you even play the game isn't playing. Counter play involves everything past champ select.

This is why DOTA is a much better balanced game as much as I dislike playing it for fun. You can actually build to counter people and your supports can cover what you can't. If you need CC there is an item for it. You need immunity to physical damage there is an item for it (although the active does have a increased magic damage on it). If you need a blink, Blink Dagger. If you need to reflect damage back there is an item with an active for it. If you need immunity to magic, there is an item for it. If you want roaming and gank potential there are items for that.

Right now its basically decided the second you lock in. Sure you can try to play around a bad lane, but you in no way can build anything that will help you in lane or even later. Because most of the items in League have dead end stats for the champs that they counter as in you waste stats by building them in order to counter someone else. At least in DOTA every stat does contribute to your Hero even if it is as minor as a tiny amount of mana regen or 1-2 armor (armor values tend to be much smaller in DOTA and there is no MR).

I want items to actually have an impact and be a choice in this game. Not just "welp fighting Yi, now I need a Frozen Heart/Randuins(which don't even work on him when he ults)/thornmail(true damage helps him basically ignore it)". And if it wasn't bad enough that he had one window to get to you, he has his Ghostblade to hunt you down even longer. Hell even some of the counter items in DOTA that cancel out other items are at least somewhat expensive (armor pen/MP buy a 2300 item null approx. 3k gold value off 2 items whereas in DOTA you null the actives/passives so it turns out even as they do not have armor pen/MP as well or True Damage sources)

Jefftiffy1 votes

Honestly tell me how do you kill a Yi when he blows you up in under 2s. 100 ping and your reaction is already giving you about a 1.5s window to react to him. (seeing as humans tend to have a slightly delayed reaction to begin with).

It isn't fair for the person being hit, for an attack to be strong it has to be fair to both sides, if it is one sided that's how you get Nidalee.

For Nasus, I feel like he needs just a little bit more emphasis on a weak early game like Jax got.

Nidalee, just fix her damn spears.

Malzahar needs a little less safety in his kit or slightly lower damage early game to let his enemies have a chance to stop him. His late game is pretty strong.

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