making his barrels visible in bushes when you have vision of the bush.
not even targetable. i think that part went too far for illaoi aswell. just visible, so you can play around them a bit better and dont get 2/3 of your health taken by an invisible barrel explosion.
in both cases it would be enough to give them the red shadow of units in bushes that oracles elixir on the howling abyss gives you.
Sahn Uzal14 votesGangplank is all about sneaky ways to land barrels without having people detonate them. Illaoi is all about the ''come at me bro'', right? She's gonna kick your ass when you try to duel her. Gangplank is the guy who makes you think you're gonna get a fair fight, but then he blows your ass up outa nowhere.
Oh, and Gangplank doesn't suddenly make his Barrels untargetable when he ults... Or summon a bunch of new Barrels....
Marshbouy2 votesThat would be insane tho. imagine an ult addition named "air drop" or something that cost 1k (or less) and threw down a ton of one hit barrels when he ults.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VGUWVigL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-02T20:20:59.166+0000)
Gangplank is all about sneaky ways to land barrels without having people detonate them. Illaoi is all about the ''come at me bro'', right? She's gonna kick your ass when you try to duel her. Gangplank is the guy who makes you think you're gonna get a fair fight, but then he blows your ass up outa nowhere.
Oh, and Gangplank doesn't suddenly make his Barrels untargetable when he ults... Or summon a bunch of new Barrels....
theme aside, in the actual game environment illaoi is as dependent on her tentacles as gangplank is on his barrels. it simply doesnt work for her.
the fact that ranged champions can now easily remove those things from outside bushes was a gigantic nerf for her. for some reason shes the only one who gets this treatment.
you dont see heimer turrets from outside bushes until theyre attacking. he can sneak them in there and lure you into a trap just as gangplank can.
Sahn Uzal2 votesAgain, Illaoi gets a bunch of tentacles when she ults. Gangplank doesn't.
Squishie1 votesHow about ranged carries with rapid fire cannon that would be UNFAIR for gp.
Critmaster Garen2 votesHow about ranged carries with rapid fire cannon that would be UNFAIR for gp.
but its not unfair to illaoi?
Votable Jester2 votesIllaoi's tentacles don't automatically drop themselves to 1 hp.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VGUWVigL,comment-id=00020001000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-03T11:06:25.740+0000)
Illaoi's tentacles don't automatically drop themselves to 1 hp.
thats not a disadvantage. he relies on that mechanic to zone people.
Squishie1 votesHe also dosen't heal from his barrels and actually have CD on them.
Critmaster Garen2 votesHe also dosen't heal from his barrels and actually have CD on them.
what the hell does that have to do with anything?
you can sit here and list all the things both champions have in their kits. it doesnt change that illaoi relies as much on her tentacles to do something as gp relies on his barrels.
without them shes literally nothing.
if anything you just listed a reason why gp is still a functional champion without his barrels, and illaoi relies on her tentacles even more, since her heal is tied to having tentacles around instead of just pressing w.
Votable Jester1 votesIt does mean that a ranged champion would only need to auto them once to get rid of them whereas Illaoi's could at least take a hit.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VGUWVigL,comment-id=0002000100010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-03T23:39:20.405+0000)
It does mean that a ranged champion would only need to auto them once to get rid of them whereas Illaoi's could at least take a hit.
he relies on the hitpoint decay so he only has to q them once to get an explosion. its not a disadvantage for him and not an argument.
ranged champions can easily take tentacles out in a matter of 2 seconds by poking at them. its not harder for them to take out a tentacle than it is to destroy a barrel.
plus, if you read through the thread i said in both cases they dont need to be targetable. they went too far with allowing people to attack those tentacles without direct vision. going by riots own reasoning for the change, that wasnt even necessary.
Squishie1 votesAnd also she is not squishy
Toastersaot11 votesif that were to happen then Gangplank would lose the ability to make picks at all. Also, Gangplank barrels are a one time thing. You blow them up, and then they are gone. Illaoi's tentacles can smack you more than once. It's the equivalent of saying Garen can't use his bush strats anymore to kill someone.
Gangplank's power comes from his barrels, not directly from the champion model.
kile1471 votesThe issue isn't with the tentacles smacking you more than once, it's the first time. If you don't identify that bush as a threat after the first time you get smacked then that is on you, but it feels unfair to be laning against Illaoi and have full vision of her and the first bush in toplane yet she still hits you from an unexpected angle because there was a tentacle in the bush that you couldn't see.
I'd say that maybe a middle ground for this situation would be best? If a tentacle/barrel is placed into a bush that you have vision of (not necessarily inside of, just vision of the bush) then it should remain visible but not targetable. If you don't have vision at the time it was placed then it doesn't appear until you get vision inside the bush.
Gangplank and Illaoi can both still get picks, but they can't cheese you out of a bush unless they make sure that their setup efforts are well out of sight.
Edit: Keep in mind I don't think that Gangplank is necessarily problematic so if this change (nerf really) hurts him significantly then he should definitely be buffed, maybe given an extra barrel back.
Zerenza3 votesTbh neither of them should have had this happen, it was a common strategy for illaoi to put tentacles in bushes so when i'd get ganked i'd run back to a bush because i know there is a tentacle in there that they can't get to and that i can use to my advantage. Gangplank does the same thing it's just that he actually needs to be able to do that, he's extremely squishy and his laning phase is bad so being able to place things in a bush give him an extra edge.
If anything you should learn tendencies of certain champions and understand what they're doing. Illaoi placing tentacles in a bush is very common, same with gangplank and his barrels.
Multi-Hits or not it's a valid strategy that the opponent should learn to play around.
PS: Chances are if you tried to fight an illaoi and she started running, she was going to kill you anyway, she just chose to run back to part of the lane that she had control over. That's literally how she's supposed to be played, i do it constantly and i don't really consider it cheese it's their fault for falling for my bait.
TequilaZombie1 votesIt's AP Shaco all over again. I feel like I'm back at early season 2.
Critmaster Garen2 votesThe issue isn't with the tentacles smacking you more than once, it's the first time. If you don't identify that bush as a threat after the first time you get smacked then that is on you, but it feels unfair to be laning against Illaoi and have full vision of her and the first bush in toplane yet she still hits you from an unexpected angle because there was a tentacle in the bush that you couldn't see.
I'd say that maybe a middle ground for this situation would be best? If a tentacle/barrel is placed into a bush that you have vision of (not necessarily inside of, just vision of the bush) then it should remain visible but not targetable. If you don't have vision at the time it was placed then it doesn't appear until you get vision inside the bush.
Gangplank and Illaoi can both still get picks, but they can't cheese you out of a bush unless they make sure that their setup efforts are well out of sight.
Edit: Keep in mind I don't think that Gangplank is necessarily problematic so if this change (nerf really) hurts him significantly then he should definitely be buffed, maybe given an extra barrel back.
at the very least there was no reason to make these tentacles targetable. riot said this was a matter of information. if someone wanted to engage on illaoi he should be able to fully assess her strength at the time. to know how many tentacles are around, you dont need to be able to kill them if you dont actually have vision on them. even if they made them visible, they didnt have to make them targetable.
im still not convinced the entire reasoning couldnt be applied to gangplank aswell. or heimerdinger who can place turrets inside bushes to set a trap.
Beldair1 votesDont forget Zyra and her seeds...which can be turned into plant turrets that can do some damage.
Khell DarkWolf3 votesCan we address the fact that you now can't invade properly with your team as Illaoi without tipping off the enemy team because your tentacles spawn right next to you in the fog of war. :/
Ralanr1 votesWell Illaoi isn't great for invades since she's meant to make her zone and be strong there.
Khell DarkWolf1 votesWell Illaoi isn't great for invades since she's meant to make her zone and be strong there.
You're missing the point.
If my team has a good level 1 for invades with only me not suited for it and we want to invade.
I can't participate in it as Illaoi, because my spawning tentacles give away our position in the fog of war to the enemy team.
Ralanr2 votesThen don't participate?
newbin2 votesget a ward your bushes should be warded anyway.
bill841 votesIt is not easy to have that many wards, nor do I think it is possible unless you are in teemo OFA
Critmaster Garen2 votesget a ward your bushes should be warded anyway.
you cant ward all 3 lane bushes and your lane with 1 trinket ward. this argument might have halfway worked until last season. but since we cant buy them anymore.
no. we can not get wards.
Summonerrr 12 votesReworked Critplank and his insane zoning potential and free dueling/trading off barrels when it comes to melee matchups is making me have flashbacks of Bankplank. Not cool.
P.S. : To everyone saying any changes to his barrels will mess with his ability to ambush and or get picks, since when did he become an assassin? I'm legitimately curious, as he's still listed as a fighter.
Miraweave2 votesAlso why can he place a barrel in the middle of a chain and have it go off?
They don't even have a travel time so there's absolutely no indication that you're going to get hit. It removes all the counterplay they supposedly have.
ReshiKillim1 votesBut that'd undo one of the reasons for one of his barrel nerfs, which would also give a reason to revert it.
Critmaster Garen2 votesBut that'd undo one of the reasons for one of his barrel nerfs, which would also give a reason to revert it.
judging by his power curve they could buff his lategame instead if it craps on him too hard. im just wondering whats up with the double standarts.
the same reason theyve given for the illaoi change applies to gp barrels.
warpenguin5551 votesWait, they arent?
Critmaster Garen2 votesWait, they arent?
no. i think theyre visible for half a second when he places them, and then they go invisible when you dont have vision inside the bush.
warpenguin5551 votesoh nevermind i got confused. i thought you meant vision inside the bush for some reason. lol, yeah riot please add this
Only Play Darius1 votesBecause he relies completely on placing barrels in hidden areas for surprise attacks. In case you haven't noticed Gangplank can't just put barrels out in the open because any ranged champion can disable them from complete safety and screw him. If his barrels were visible in brush he would literally have only 3 abilities.
