if there's a master yi , xin etc..
it doesn't matter if you build 
etc
they will kill you anyway , and the funny thing is that they can simply tower dive you anyway and kill you
life steal is everywhere .. there should be a limit to 20-25% life steal instead to 60 ^___^
Damodar7 votesIf your playing ap against a yi or a xin and they get into melee range, that's on you my guy. You should be using cc and/or simply using your range against them.
If your team somehow doesn't have any cc at all, then you were fucked from the start cause your comp is just not gonna work.
And if somebody is building 60% lifesteal, they are dedicating at least 3 items to get that. That build will simply not work because they'll be lacking stats in other areas.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIf your playing ap against a yi or a xin and they get into melee range, that's on you my guy. You should be using cc and/or simply using your range against them.
If your team somehow doesn't have any cc at all, then you were fucked from the start cause your comp is just not gonna work.
And if somebody is building 60% lifesteal, they are dedicating at least 3 items to get that. That build will simply not work because they'll be lacking stats in other areas.
*4
Unless they stacked BT's.
Jmman1 voteslike what defense? 
or against a tank?
To me its like what stat do you want with your life stealing
shield or reduce damage
CC or ap
need AS or tank
Need to slow them down
need aoe
so by giving up something you really need not getting ac or hp with it?
Damodar2 votesYou give up armor. You give up unique passives. And grievous wounds does hurt a full lifesteal build. You also give up real hp and you constantly need to be attacking in order to make use of the lifesteal. All it takes is a stun and that LS is useless.
I'll give you . That item really is pretty op rn.
Jmman1 votesAll it takes is a stun and that LS is useless.
Plus, don't you get unique passives from the LS items?
I kind of thought the point of an ADC is to attack things.
Still you don't really give anything up to have life steal. That is my point. Sure you don't have to build 3 items but you can just get the thing you need with LS added on. No compare that to the tank or AP counterpart.
PhDs Nuts1 votes
Plus, don't you get unique passives from the LS items?
I kind of thought the point of an ADC is to attack things.
Still you don't really give anything up to have life steal. That is my point. Sure you don't have to build 3 items but you can just get the thing you need with LS added on. No compare that to the tank or AP counterpart.
Uh, you have to give up crit or armor pen. That's sort of a big deal.
Jmman1 votes 
?
most of the time I see ADC selling the boots and buying another item late game
or 
add the 50 to 60% crit 30% LS, AS, AC and rez..... what did you really give up?
Damodar1 votesThat build is now weak to CC and you've also delayed buying IE, something that very few lategame carries except maybe kogmaw can do, and that's because a decent part of his damage comes from his onhits. Also that build has no mr at all, so a mage could probably chunk a 3rd or more of their health with one ability.
Also, if you've let a late game carry get to the point where they can sell their boots for a 6th item, they deserve to be strong cause you've had plenty of time to kill them while they're weak.
Jmman1 votesDude everyone is weak to CC. ALL MAGES ARE WEAK TO CC.
Life steal if op if mages don't get a version. Lifesteal needs to only work on abilities, or removed, or spell vamp back. Spell vamp never worked with melees. Mages can't have one mage item with only ap and spell vamp and AD get SOOOOO many options.
There is too much self healing and shield in the game. Mages damage was reduced ALOT across the board while AD healing / shield / damage has gone up. At some point its going to give out. Mages kill champs and AD takes objectives. To give AD healing from auto is a crutch to help out a weakness. I see nothing that helps AP take objectives.
and don't sub for the cc its not like AP would get something hey they want use to use 
because that sounds fair
Damodar1 votesMages have 
Therefore they also have an option to handle cc.
Mages also tend to be able to use their entire combo in a short time, so they can use all their spells and then retreat while they wait for their abilities to comeback. If anything, mages are one of the classes that can handle cc the best.
Prove to me that lifesteal is op. Give me reasons that Lifesteal is broken.
Also prove that mages are bad right now. Of the top 15 mid laners picked right now, 10 if them are mages. And of the 15 highest winrate midlaners, 12 of them are mages.
Oh and explain , an item with 112% gold efficiency without the passive, that just so happens to counter healing.
Jmman2 votesYou realize you can't immune if you CCed right?
Like AD can't click all there skills in a short time?
Life steal is OP because they removed it from mages saying healing was too hard to balance.
Life steal is OP because AD can heal to full from ONE minion wave while casters have to back. This means an AD can rejoin the fight after 10 secs while the AP is spending 30 to 45 to get back.
Life steal is op because its a defense stat on offensive items. Mean they can "drain tank" people. This gives an unfair advance because this stat is not available to tank or mages.
Life steal also scales to well with crit. This makes healing do more than some champs damage or spells. (see be crits and how much they heal for)
Life steal allow champs to stay in lane and negate Poke champs and Dot champs strong point, Thus making it a item passive counter to certain class. Where champs have to use resources to poke or control the lane an item passive should not take the skill involve to position and dodge skills away. Need to quit babying AD with soo much healing so they don't have to move out of the way from damage.
Life stealing is OP because the mage version requires them to but under 35% before there healing is reduced.
Life stealing is op because high damage per second with burst do not need high healing
Life stealing is op because they will out heal champ that are dedicated healers. Draven shouldn't out heal soraka. Noc shouldn't out heal soraka. Lee sin doesn't need to out heal Nami.... etc etc etc
10 out of the 15 mid lanes are mages.... lets look at ad compared to ap in other lanes.
Top 10 ad vs 5 ap jungle 8 ad vs 4 ap carry 15 ad vs 0 ap support 0 ad vs 2 ap (fiddle and brand)
Now I took out tanks due to they really aren't ad or ap the build mostly tank with some ad or ap damage.
This is (counting our stats) 38 ad vs 21 ap in the top roles
only procs when below 35% and only on spells. Meaning the is CD restricted. and if you use your spells on someone then you can't proc this on someone else.
800 gold compared to 2900 for the proc. Also procs at 100% with any physical damage. Skills or autos. This can be proced on everyone with and wont come off until the adc dies. Also this can up but graded to allowing you early access to stop healing and complete item later. This item is a tank counter. Stop healing and armor. it would be like and 
combined. This allows for two needed stats to come from one item. Allow another spot for another "choice" item. AP doesn't have this "training wheels" on there items.
Damodar1 votesThere are very few instant CCs and the ones that do exist are short ranged. This means you have time for Zhonyas or you can outrange it. Another item I forgot now exists is 
. It even has ap now.
Most ADs rely on their auto attacks to various degrees. Somebody like a late game carry needs to constantly auto attack to maintain their damage and while they are moving or cced, they do absolutely nothing. Clicking all their skills in a short time will do something, but it won't be as powerful as a mages because pretty much all of a mages power budget is attached to their skills, while ADs have some of their power budget attached to their autos.\
They removed it from mages because it is hard to balance for mages. When spellvamp existed, it had to be balanced around champions like Vlad or Swain and on champions like Ryze or Ahri. The reason its hard to balance is similar to why healing is hard to balance around grievous wounds. Healing has to be strong enough to be worth taking even if GW is present, but not overpowering when it isn't. But that's hard to do when GW can almost halve that healing. And even when it was present, most of the time the only champions who bought it were sustain based champs like Swain and Vlad. So it's easier to remove an underused stat and balance the champions who wanted it around it not existing. In it's current stat, many champions completely rely on lifesteal existing. If lifesteal was removed, it would a balancing nightmare.
This is an intended weakness of mages. Mages should be hard to get hits on because they either outtrange most people, have cc, or even have a degree of mobility. They should be using these to avoid damage in the first place. Most ADs are melee, or they lack mobility and/or cc. They need lifesteal in order to fulfill their purposes, whether it being a diver like Xin/Noc or an ADC. Worth mentioning that the only champions who can heal back their health and rejoin a fight are ADCs, or junglers who use can use smite to heal. Most junglers also have innate sustain to help heal themselves. This also doesn't happen until mid/late game because LS isn't strong enough to heal that quickly during laning phase.
Lifesteal scaling with offense is both a strength and a weakness. It's strong because you can increase your defense with other stats, but it means you have to be attacking in order to utilize it. Lifesteal does nothing to prevent your death until you start attacking. If you get bursted, you're probably dead. It also means that you need some significant auto attack damage to make the most of the stat, likely along with some AS. BOTRK does fit this bill, but it just got nerfed and now has one of the lowest lifesteal amounts as far as full items go.
Lifesteal should scale well with crit. Lifesteal is thedefense stat for ADCs and anybody who builds crit. Crit however, doesn't scale until mid/late game, except for this MFer
. If a champion is focusing all their gold into their auto attacks, it should scale their lifesteal well because that is how you make the most of lifesteal. Most ADs also can't afford to take an armor or mr item without giving up something important like armor pen or a 3rd crit item. And if they can afford to sell their boots, they've reached end game and should outscale most champs.
Lifesteal doesn't become strong enough in lane to sustain against high poke champions, unless their name is Draven who i'll give you is kinda op. If they can sustain, they have innate sustain built into their kits like Aatrox. Also, sustain in general is supposed to counter poke. Poke counters engage, engage counters sustain, and sustain counters poke.
If you're a mage and you're having trouble getting a squishy below 35%, you're doing something wrong or you're getting outplayed. You're also not supposed to be strong against tanks/beefy champs.
If a champion has high sustained burst, they have given up something important like armor or mr. Combo them and watch their health bar magically disappear.
Lifestealers aren't outhealing champs whos shtick is healing, except Draven who I've already said is pretty op. But champs like Noct or Lee are not outhealing Soraka and Nami doesn't just heal people, so her healing won't be as as strong as a dedicated healer, but even then I doubt she's being outhealed by Lee, especially with the amount of bonus healing/shielding power that's around.
Alright i'll give you this, ap champions aren't popular enough in other lanes. But that kinda has to do with how most ap champions work. By far the majority of Ap champions are mages, with a few ap tanks and I can only think of 1 ap bruiser 
. Most mages don't really work in other lanes.
Mages scale well with levels better than somebody like an ADC. They also tend to have CC or even some mobility like Ahri, so they can also deal with ganks better than somebody like an ADC. This is why you send them to a solo lane, so they don't have to share exp with somebody.
You don't really send them bot because they have to share exp with a support. The ones that can go bot can take the role of the ADC, which is mainly objective damage. The only one who can really fit this bill is Ziggs, who isn't really popular ATM, but I think its underrated. The ones who go support have enough base damage in their kits that they can bully the enemy botlane and can scale using mpen. They also have a decent bit of cc for peel/engage.
This leaves Top, mid , or jg. You don't really send them JG because pretty much every jungler nowadays has to be strong enough early to deal with Lee Sin. Most mages don't really have the combination of mobility, early damage, and sustain to deal with clearing jg camps and ganking.
Top lane is complicated. It's an island compared to the other lanes. Thats why most Top laners take tp, so they can have an impact in other lanes with tp ganks. Top laners need to be good at dueling, and/or have enough sustain to ignore jabs from the lane opponent. Being beefy also helps in tp ganks because almost all the time, the enemy bot lane will turn on whoever is tping into their lane, or they'll run. If a mage like ziggs tried to tp gank behind the enemy botlane, they would get clapped.
Thats why you send mages mid. They can provide extra control over dragon/rift herald and they can get solo exp. It also puts them in a position to roam, which isn't as risky as a tp gank.
I will say that I don't think there are enough Ap champs in other lanes, but that really is partly because of the variation of Ap champions in general.
Mages also tend to have AOE, so they can potentially hit multiple targets. This also has to do with how mages are designed. Mages should be dealing a significant amount of burst to squishy targets, if not outright killing them with their entire combo. They shouldn't be whittling down a targets health with sustained damage. This purposefully makes mages weaker towards champions who are tanky enough to survive their burst. It rewards players who do use their combos on their intended targets, while not giving them something extra against targets they aren't supposed to be blowing up.
ADCs however, are supposed to be whittling down targets. This gives them a tool against tanks who use large amounts of self healing or who receive large amounts of healing. Tanky targets who receive large amounts of healing are very hard to kill. Since ADCs are supposed to be tank killers, their form of GW procs at all times to allow them to kill their intended targets. LW only affecting bonus armor reinforces this strength. It doesn't counter base armor, it counters only built armor.
Mages aren't supposed to be tank killers. That's why they don't have some sort of combination of
and . But the ones who are more DPS based have tools like 
.
Also its worth noting that affects base mr as well as bonus mr. It's good against targets that don't build mr and even more efficient against targets that do. You can't make a mistake by building that item as a mage.
I will say this. I don't think LS is too strong, rather that its shielding that is too strong. LS isn't bad on its own, but it becomes bad once targets are hard to kill when they get shielded for 1000+ bonus health. And when you can't reliably answer those shields, except to just blow through them, it becomes a problem.
HOLY BALLS I didn't intend for that response to be that along. I may as well make a post about this.
ObscureParticle1 votesYou realize you can't immune if you CCed right?
Like AD can't click all there skills in a short time?
Life steal is OP because they removed it from mages saying healing was too hard to balance.
Life steal is OP because AD can heal to full from ONE minion wave while casters have to back. This means an AD can rejoin the fight after 10 secs while the AP is spending 30 to 45 to get back.
Life steal is op because its a defense stat on offensive items. Mean they can "drain tank" people. This gives an unfair advance because this stat is not available to tank or mages.
Life steal also scales to well with crit. This makes healing do more than some champs damage or spells. (see be crits and how much they heal for)
Life steal allow champs to stay in lane and negate Poke champs and Dot champs strong point, Thus making it a item passive counter to certain class. Where champs have to use resources to poke or control the lane an item passive should not take the skill involve to position and dodge skills away. Need to quit babying AD with soo much healing so they don't have to move out of the way from damage.
Life stealing is OP because the mage version requires them to but under 35% before there healing is reduced.
Life stealing is op because high damage per second with burst do not need high healing
Life stealing is op because they will out heal champ that are dedicated healers. Draven shouldn't out heal soraka. Noc shouldn't out heal soraka. Lee sin doesn't need to out heal Nami.... etc etc etc
10 out of the 15 mid lanes are mages.... lets look at ad compared to ap in other lanes.
Top 10 ad vs 5 ap jungle 8 ad vs 4 ap carry 15 ad vs 0 ap support 0 ad vs 2 ap (fiddle and brand)
Now I took out tanks due to they really aren't ad or ap the build mostly tank with some ad or ap damage.
This is (counting our stats) 38 ad vs 21 ap in the top roles
10 sec? full minion wave?
XD, It only takes 3 minions, and 3 secs.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIf your playing ap against a yi or a xin and they get into melee range, that's on you my guy. You should be using cc and/or simply using your range against them.
If your team somehow doesn't have any cc at all, then you were fucked from the start cause your comp is just not gonna work.
And if somebody is building 60% lifesteal, they are dedicating at least 3 items to get that. That build will simply not work because they'll be lacking stats in other areas.
I question how you have 5 upvotes and I have two downvotes when our first sentences are literally the same.
Damodar1 votesReally good question actually. I haven't gotten any responses from the op so it may have been them. +1 for you cause you right.
HaIlMonitor1 votesYou dont know the legendary Rengar build do you?
Its the hidden they have 4 ap build :p
Damodar1 votesWait, does spirit visage have interaction with his w healing? That'd be hilarious
Asayake 5150glow3 votesYou should be able to kill them before they get into range my friend.
SirTeemoMushroom2 votesare you for real? lol play now with a master yi and send me video of how you killed him before getting in ranged
Asayake 5150glow3 votesare you for real? lol
Uh, yeah.
play now with a master yi and send me video of how you killed him before getting in ranged
How am I supposed to 'play now with a mastery yi' and do that?
Take Caitlyn, she will kill Yi with autos before he even gets into Q range.
AdeBug1 voteswrong thread, my friend, AP in title
ObscureParticle1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEye7v1J,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-29T19:35:22.270+0000)
You should be able to kill them before they get into range my friend.
Do you... realize that these work on ranged champions... some of which can even go invisible?
Asayake 5150glow2 votesDo you... realize that these work on ranged champions... some of which can even go invisible?
Most are still low range compared to mages.
And Twitch is immobile after coming out of stealth.
ObscureParticle1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEye7v1J,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-30T19:37:18.260+0000)
Most are still low range compared to mages.
And Twitch is immobile after coming out of stealth.
Caitlyn low range? Jinx low range? Tristana low range? Twich low range?
BYW regardless of immobile, when twich come out of invisibility he WILL be in range. I don't know what's the point you were trying to make, I wasn't saying anything in regards to mobility.
Sp33d Zer02 votesThe good thing about life steal and dealing with it? If they can't lifesteal if they can't hit you.
SirTeemoMushroom1 votesmaster yi can press R and get you.. anyway most of master yi mains pick ghost .. so they get you 100% and xin has a dash which he can flash-dash and kill you
Sp33d Zer03 votesAnd you most likely have flash and can flash away after he flash dashes you. And Yi runs at you in a very linear way most times, makes it pretty easy to hit a Lux binding on him for example.
AdeBug1 votes
Sp33d Zer01 votesIn what world is Yi or Xin using that?
Edit: I just looked it up, Edge of Night doesn't even make it onto the list of items that either of them build in even 1% of their games.
AdeBug1 votesugh in mine? I specifically remember him nullifying my stun as veigar and deleting me before I could even target him
whats ur source? idk if probuilds is the place to go as it doesnt represent the majority, but I've been there and that one person that used it in the last month got the most kills compared to the others in that month. older than that and I think we're enterin a diff version of the item, as it's been changed around since it came out
Subject 52 votesYeah but mages get life- I mean spell vamp- I mean This one item that does like . . . nothing compared to the AD Sustain items.
Erockandroll2 votes[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEye7v1J,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-05-29T21:35:31.913+0000)
Yeah but mages get life- I mean spell vamp- I mean
Yeah, I remember when people complained about champs like Vlad completely ruining spell vamp. (Though Riot thinks omni Vamp is fine) Though I think the issue rises more with Burst vs. sustain. and that Burst healing was cancerous or something.
Though as someone not really carrying about building glass cannon. I would probably go RoA/Wormarg's if I wanted sustain. Those two items will provide enough HP to trigger it's passive, and the extra HP will help you escape bursts.
Though to OP's point, I don't even thing sustain is the real issue. The fact that an AP is usually burst and Yi/Xin are pretty much Skirmishers, pretty much means that your going to lose in a duel, if you can't burst them down in one go.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesI know right? 'Burst healing is oppressive!' Explain why critical hits apply life steal riot.
Jmman1 votesI questioned why AP lost theirs when you have adc healing for what my spells hit for.
Here are my problems with life steal. Mages don't really have sustain unless its build into their kit. You can't Bing or poke don't AD users anymore because of Life steal. Heck adcs I can chain poke with fiddle support and they stay about full hp the whole time. Why. I run out of mana and they have 90% hp. Why should I use all of my mana and they "heal" through most. Same thing mid.
How many times do AD back out hit a few minions and back in with full hp. AP users are restrained by mana. AD are restrained by HP. They have auto attacks. They don't need abilities to kill someone. Sure it might help but it isn't needed.
Now look at AP. Once they are oom or low hp they have to back to the fountain. You would think that AP users would then have more damage and better damage to make up for the lack of sustain dps. If you take the DPS (damage per second) I can tell you every time an AD champ will be higher than an AP one because of auto attacks. A lot of the none ult abilities do about equal damage. But once you add in auto and AD adding to the damage of auto you will soon realize ad champ are a lot stronger. Then about turrets and things. AD auto destroyers them. Caster auto sucks.
I'm sure all the ad will down vote me but we need to have AP add to auto attacks so to speak.
right now
sustain AD>AP
Burst AD=AP (don't tell me its not because I get blown up just as fast with an AD and AP. But event is you want to say AP>AD when an ap uses his ult. Without ult AD ever time)
Objectives AD>AP (towers, baron, dragon, jungle)
Defensive item with damage AD>AP
extra proc damage AD>AP (
still does AD damage with ap why isn't this an all ap item why does it have bas damage instead of more ap)
Right now AP are just for killing champ or ccing them. If your AP mid lives when everyone else dies he will be lucky to get one turrent. If an AD lives he will take multiple. I understand its different champs and styles. But why do they need to have EVERYTHING.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesI questioned why AP lost theirs when you have adc healing for what my spells hit for.
Here are my problems with life steal. Mages don't really have sustain unless its build into their kit. You can't Bing or poke don't AD users anymore because of Life steal. Heck adcs I can chain poke with fiddle support and they stay about full hp the whole time. Why. I run out of mana and they have 90% hp. Why should I use all of my mana and they "heal" through most. Same thing mid.
How many times do AD back out hit a few minions and back in with full hp. AP users are restrained by mana. AD are restrained by HP. They have auto attacks. They don't need abilities to kill someone. Sure it might help but it isn't needed.
Now look at AP. Once they are oom or low hp they have to back to the fountain. You would think that AP users would then have more damage and better damage to make up for the lack of sustain dps. If you take the DPS (damage per second) I can tell you every time an AD champ will be higher than an AP one because of auto attacks. A lot of the none ult abilities do about equal damage. But once you add in auto and AD adding to the damage of auto you will soon realize ad champ are a lot stronger. Then about turrets and things. AD auto destroyers them. Caster auto sucks.
I'm sure all the ad will down vote me but we need to have AP add to auto attacks so to speak.
right now
sustain AD>AP Burst AD=AP (don't tell me its not because I get blown up just as fast with an AD and AP. But event is you want to say AP>AD when an ap uses his ult. Without ult AD ever time) Objectives AD>AP (towers, baron, dragon, jungle) Defensive item with damage AD>AP extra proc damage AD>AP (
Right now AP are just for killing champ or ccing them. If your AP mid lives when everyone else dies he will be lucky to get one turrent. If an AD lives he will take multiple. I understand its different champs and styles. But why do they need to have EVERYTHING.
AP waveclears a lot faster and seiges a lot better (takes tower slower, but better waveclear + poke).
They also bring massive damage and CC to a fight, as you mentioned, both of which are really important.
Jmman1 votesDepend on the APC. Some don't have good clear. Other do. But all AD have good clear because of auto. And the game is won with objectives. So I understand what the directs are and you are correct. I just don't see that in game. a lot of AD have way better clear than Fiddle. His clear sucks. AP have to use their spells to clear. AD can just auto and save abilities for zoning or damage to champs
ad has bad clear they can get or
if AP has bad clear they can get 
but its only on the first cast. This is my issue. Sure the META mages have it easy. but the NON META ones are getting the stiffy and its only getting worst. Rito like to pretend that since 6 of the 30 mages are good then they all are.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesDepend on the APC. Some don't have good clear. Other do. But all AD have good clear because of auto. And the game is won with objectives. So I understand what the directs are and you are correct. I just don't see that in game. a lot of AD have way better clear than Fiddle. His clear sucks. AP have to use their spells to clear. AD can just auto and save abilities for zoning or damage to champs
ad has bad clear they can get
if AP has bad clear they can get
Yeah, well mages get other advantages like super high range (only Jhin and Cait can even try to compete), targeted burst combined with CC, and AoE CC on basic abilities. They also usually get the targeted hard CC.
Fiddlesticks get massive AoE DPS, much higher than that of anyone else, point and click Fear and multitarget, point and click Silence, both very strong CC abilities. You'll never see that on an AD champion. It's the same/very similar for other mages.
Jmman2 votes
what about stuns 
point and clicks 
range isn't a thing jumping half way across the map and back 
range what range
I could go on and on. But the point is the Items can make up for all of that
with doesn't have crazy consent aoe?
with doesn't have crazy aoe
When you compare them to fiddle if you have MR or cc/dash you can avoided almost ALL of the aoe damage. He only has one AoE. SO you can compare one ult Aoe with a long cool down to other aoe. He don't have clearing AoE. You know, what I was talking about.
Everything you said could make a counter argument for AD. But my point is AD has items to over come any down fail or counter play. Then AP just have the "same" items for assassins, tank, burst, battle, enchanter, etc mages. There isn't the niche ones like AD has. And to be Fair neither does tank items. Now I'm not saying Buff it items but rather make more choices like AD and keep the item power levels the same.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes
I could go on and on. But the point is the Items can make up for all of that
When you compare them to fiddle if you have MR or cc/dash you can avoided almost ALL of the aoe damage. He only has one AoE. SO you can compare one ult Aoe with a long cool down to other aoe. He don't have clearing AoE. You know, what I was talking about.
Everything you said could make a counter argument for AD. But my point is AD has items to over come any down fail or counter play. Then AP just have the "same" items for assassins, tank, burst, battle, enchanter, etc mages. There isn't the niche ones like AD has. And to be Fair neither does tank items. Now I'm not saying Buff it items but rather make more choices like AD and keep the item power levels the same.
All of those only have stuns, or point and clicks, or range.
AP often gets all of them.
Jmman1 votes"often" you are selecting certain mages to try and prove a point. What are the ones that don't. they then would be UP and need buffs if I'm understanding your comment correct.
doesn't have stuns / point and click/ or range?????????????
almost like a point and click stun with a lot of range.
you are bias no need to reply
Sp33d Zer01 votes
literally spell vamp.
Jmman1 votesCool so we can remove some AD from life stealing items and add some AP on them right
Sp33d Zer01 votesGunblade has as much, or more, AP than a good chunk of AP items do.
Jmman1 votesYou don't need to tell me the sad state of AP items I already know.
need to add: gun blade adds 50% of AP as ad.
remove ad and then I would be happy.
Sp33d Zer01 votesSo if they nerfed gunblade by taking away it's AD component, you would be happy with the item.
I want to reiterate. If they straight up nerfed an item bought by AP champions for added burst, as well as sustained damage from autos and sustain from the spell vamp, you would be happier with the item than you are right now.
Jmman1 votesWhere did you get nerfed from.
Make a AP only item. Like the life steal AD only items. This wasn't a nerf. This would address the weakness of AP to take objectives by converting ap into Raw AD for melee attacks. You know since AD adds to melee and abilities why should AP not be like AD and having something for everything.
YES as a fiddle main I would love them to remove the AD from the item and move it to all AP. Because right now AP has no sustain items. (I know fiddle has a heal but not all AP users do)
edit: oh I forgot we have to look at everything from a AD side and not AP so yea losing AD would be a big nerf........./rolleyes
Sp33d Zer01 votesYou didn't say "Take the AD off of gunblade and give it more AP".
You said "remove the ad and then I would be happy." That is where I got nerfed item from.
Jmman1 votesI did say make it add 50% of your ap added as ad. (example 300 ap would add 150 ad) This might have to be played with to find the correct balance.
Would be a buff though.
Sp33d Zer01 votesI'm just thinking about an ap fid with 400 ad and it's terrifying.
I like it.
Jmman2 votespast seasons 800 ad was easy. Now I get around 300 support maybe 4 to 500 as mid. He just "needs" so many of the low ap items to ( 
a lot of times mid I pass up I might get 
or 
. But a lot of games I don't get it.
I know it might be good on a lot of champs but I feel fiddle weakness are better covered with other items.
Mana is an issue. However, he has no damage for farming but crows. This puts him in a unique spot as a mage to get close to auto minions for farm. It does suck that the "standard" first item for mages is a counter for fiddle. But I feel or or 
/
makes him a lot more Impactful. Plus he doesn't really have an escape. Therefore he is easy to gank if pushed. and will cause him to push the lane with crows and the CD.
I know its different playstyles and what not.
I rather removed the reduce healing
make an item from 
for 900 gold that reduces healing for 8 sec when hit by a spell
then make that item and that combines for an ap type item of 