I know that building tanky on champions that are supposed to be squishy is a issue, but...

YumaS2Astral··9 votes·1,723 views

...what if Riot actually nerfs the items that assassins are currently abusing?

What will happen to many melee assassins? Some of them will still be viable (Zed Talon Fizz) but what about the others? (MasterYi Akali Khazix)

Part of the reason why they build tanky currently is not just because they can do so and still have the damage needed to kill squishies. It is because they don't have the same potential as other assassins to 100-0 someone in 1 or 2 seconds. Talon can build full damage and still be effective even though he is a melee because he can instaburst any squishy, and thus, he doesn't need to worry about being tanky because he is not going to take damage to begin with. Even if he takes damage or dies, it is probably that he has did his job already.

However, Kha'Zix cannot 100-0 someone unless they are isolated, and even then, it takes more than 2 seconds for him to assassinate someone, making him take a lot of damage in the process. Thus, he is a lot more vulnerable to being kited and crowd controlled. Akali has a similar problem: even with a full AP build, she can't try to assassinate someone during a fight because she is going to be crowd controlled and instantly killed. The only moment where she is going to kill a squishy reliably is when they are isolated, but a squishy champion should not wander alone if there is an assassin on the enemy team. Thus, for Akali, the only way she can be effective is by building tanky, allowing her to overcome the aforementioned problem.

Master Yi also has a similar problem. He isn't really an assassin per se, but a diving fighter. However, even if he builds full damage, not only he can't 100-0 someone, but he will die easily once he is crowd controlled. Yasuo can build squishy because of his immense control potential, and Tryndamere can build squishy because of his ult.

That's the problem. Unless you have the potential to instantly 100-0 a squishy, going squishy as a melee is incredibly risky and is almost always unviable. Many ranged champions can be squishy exactly because of their range advantage, but melees are a lot more vulnerable to CC and kiting.

What if items like Titanic Hydra/Sterak's Gage/Iceborn Gauntlet are nerfed? I know they should be nerfed because they are currently too powerful. But then, what will happen with assassins that do not have the same instant 100-0 potential as others? Are they going to become trash again?

20 Comments

Envy Sin7 votes

Those items will be nerfed at the same time as the mage update.

Then the mages get to run around doing whatever they want for a few months.

Then riot will rebuff assassins to OP

so don't worry assassin meta is coming back, They just have to let other roles have fun once in awhile.

Kaiquion2 votes

Well master yi shouldn't be diving in head first in a team fight unless cc is already blown, but what is the point you're trying to make? Trying to excuse the reason of yi building tanky and getting nerf because it doesn't hinder his dmg output as much as it should?

Tilomentry2 votes

His point is that there is an inherent problem with being a squishy melee. Being melee means you are greatly exposed to danger and being squishy means you will die very easily when exposed to that danger. Thus being both means when you go to fight, you either succeed or die (with exception to a few particularly frustrating champions to play against).

Therefore a squishy melee must look for windows of opportunity where they can succeed when they engage. For most assassins, they only need about ~1 second to output their full burst and kill their target and so, only need a window of about ~1 second.

But for other champions like MasterYi Fiora who need at least 2 - 3+ seconds to melt their targets down need equally long windows of opportunity which is unreasonable. So why try to be a pseudo-assassin with very difficult conditions for success when building tanky creates easier conditions?

Kaiquion1 votes

Well for starters, full ad yi has wayyyy more dmg than tank yi, but tank yi is mor reliable due to said tankiness and damage still being strong. But with a melee that acts as a dps carry, must be squishy as inherit counterplay. But because he wasn't losing enough damage while building tanky is why he's being nerfed. Yes some assassins can dish out their damage in about 1-2 seconds. However yi can do the same thing with 1 Q and Auto attack, the problem for someone like yi is he has no real escapes besides running super fast. So yi case is bit more unique than lets say fiora. Fiora imo isn't a assassin, she has good mobility (requires to land the q though) of one and can dish out very high damage. But in the nature of her kit and passive, she's better built as a fighter however the problem is that due to nature of his passive combined with low cd of q, and ult allowing 4 passive hits. She doesn't lose meaningful damage for building similar to a juggernaut. So fiora herself, is just a liability which riot already kinda, acknowlegde their mistakes with her.

But i'm still trying to understand, are you complaining about melee champs who are classfied as an assassin being squishy and kinda forced to build tanky to succeed?

Tilomentry1 votes

My argument is that, it is unreasonable for a melee carry to be squishy without some guarantee that they can deal meaningful damage before dying.

Assassins are simply an example of how a champion can afford to be melee, squishy, and go full damage. They only need a second to do their damage. But some champions (like Yi) can't deal their damage fast enough before dying (and no, 1 Q and an auto is not nearly as much damage as an assassin's)

Fiora was just an example of another champion who is melee and expected to be squishy with a full damage build but is more optimaly played as a bruiser.

Being a melee carry doesn't mean you have to be squishy. There just has to be a way for opponents to play against such a champion.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Fiora was just an example of another champion who is melee and expected to be squishy with a full damage build but is more optimaly played as a bruiser.

Ironically, old Fiora was way better as a full damage squishy melee. This is because she could do her burst in a few seconds by using Q twice and ulting. With the ult leaving her untargetable, she could kill an squishy easily. New Fiora can't do that. Not only she needs more time to kill someone, but she also doesn't have such untargetable mechanism.

Kha'Zix is also another champion that can't really 100-0 anyone that fast. Which is why I would rather build him tanky with Black Cleaver/Titanic Hydra/Sterak's than building him full damage and not only being vulnerable to CC and burst, but also being unable to do my job regardless since Kha needs time to be able to kill anyone.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I'd group Yasuo in with those other champions. Every Yasuo builds Steraks now and most build a second defensive item as well.

Papa Slothy1 votes

yea but generally Yasuo is only a problem if he gets insanely fed and goes off-tank with titanic and rageblade

Slamurai Jack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Papa Slothy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VBqlF0Vh,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-19T03:50:21.305+0000)

yea but generally Yasuo is only a problem if he gets insanely fed and goes off-tank with titanic and rageblade

What the fuck.

Papa Slothy1 votes

it's pretty cancer, rageblade lets his auto attacks+q work like a sated devourer and the titanic procs and health make him tanky but still deal shit tons

Arakadia2 votes

I wouldn't mind if they just gutted the following champs: yasuo, rengar, fizz, akali, yi, xin, mundo, lucian, garen, darius, etc.

thumbnail91 votes

I didn't know Yi was an assassin?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

He was supposed to be. Untargettable during Q, immune to slows during ult.... That was how he used to be played a long time ago, before someone realized you can build him as a bruiser and do almost as much damage while being substantially harder to kill.

RottingCorpse1 votes

Run Soraka with warmog's and spirit visage, tank Raka is tilting lol

Edit: formatting fail

DesolationKaizer1 votes

What? I don't really think they build Iceborn...

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

What? I don't really think they build Iceborn...

Iceborn is a good item to buy on Fizz when building him as an AD/hybrid bruiser. My build for him is item 3124 item 3153 item 3047 item 3025 item 3065 item 3742

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Tank Akali builds Iceborn

Spoofghoul1 votes

man dude

these champions have really strong defensive abilities

Yi can absord a metric shit ton of damagwe with meditate for example. Or he can just dodge everything with alpha strike he also cannot be slowed during ult.

Akali has innate spellvamp/lifesteal and has her shroud to become invisible

Just imagine something for me will you

lets make half of Sions damage true damage because well hes a diving fighter and needs damage Now we also make him invisible during W make him untargetable when channeloing Q And his E parries everything.

Ye think that would be toxic enough?

Because that is basically what happened with yi lets make sure he can always melt everythign and give him stupid defenive tools. The trade off is he has to use these tools to outplay his opponent because he is squishy and if caught can die quickly. What that he has 4000 hp and 250 armor and 150 damn we managed to stun him but could only get him to half hp before he got out of the cc and started to meditate healing all the damage back up whilst facetanking 5 people. We try to kite him but he cannot be slowed he just killed our 500 armor 300 mr malphite in under 2 seconds O.O we got another cc ready shit he used W and became untargetable our cc just got killed. All his cooldowns are reset again i guess this is the end better ff.

Astôlfo1 votes

Incoming mindless assassin QQ

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