Why did Rito change Maokai and Nautilus, only to make Galio do what they originally do?

The Deckowner·Jun 23, 2017·99 votes·3,545 views

Nautilus was able to free shove waves with E aoe. Rito nerfed his E damage in 6.5 and his E mana cost in 7.8, now with these nerfs as well as sunfire nerf he is sitting at a 45% win rate, trashed.

Meanwhile we have Galio aoe waveclearing from range, his Q waveclear is so good that he is able to build full tank and still be played mid.

Then we have Maokai's ultimate getting reworked into a shitty version of Nami R. why?

This update's about establishing strategies and situations where you really want Maokai, as well as ones where you really don't. We're shaving away generic strengths like Vengeful Maelstrom and its damage reduction aura, and replacing them with situationally-powerful tools like Nature's Grasp

Rito thought Maokai's R giving damage reduction was too generic so now he gets Nami wave instead. Meanwhile Galio gets this generic ult that can be fits in all kinds of strategy and situation.

How does this make any sense?

74 Comments

MrHaZeYoJun 23, 201733 votes

I love playing Galio but you're right lol its dumb

Anu3isIIJun 23, 201720 votes

Galio's numbers are too high imo. They should really lower his Q base damage, and maybe nerf the Damage Reduction on his W and Ultimate, and increase his ratios so that he actually has to build Magic Resist to be Tanky.

SpecterVonBarenJun 23, 20176 votes

He needs that Q damage to function in mid lane, or at least they should reduce it but give it increased damage to minions so it's much worse for poke, and then they need to re-emphasize him being good against AP by reducing his effectiveness against AD and increasing his effectiveness against AP.

StusauceJun 23, 20172 votes

I don't know this to be true, but I'm not sure he was intended to be a mid-lane tank. I'm not really sure Riot designs any tanks to be mid-laners.

ErockandrollJun 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I don't know this to be true, but I'm not sure he was intended to be a mid-lane tank. I'm not really sure Riot designs any tanks to be mid-laners.

Honestly I don't really see enough difference between the two solo lanes, to really define a champion as one lane or the other.

All we have is tradition, and tradition usually says that a glass cannon AP is taken mid because it's a shorter lane. (Thus safer)

Putting a Tank specifically in mid lane, comes at the opportunity cost of not having of said glass cannon AP (Which generally won't be placed top lane) Synergizing a Tank for the mid lane usually involves either, a Mana support from blue buff. (Generally doesn't help tanks more than mages) Or to have more roam potential. Galio kinda has both, since his Q helps facilitate wave clear if spammed, while his ult can allow him to influence other lanes.

Riot really doesn't specifically make (force) champions into particular positions. Riot may have suggested that Galio could work mid lane, but isn't going to nudge his kit until he only goes mid lane.

Not Too SeriousJun 23, 20171 votes

I mean old Galio kind of worked mid lane because he did more of a mix between AP and MR most of the time, so he was still quite a lot of damage.

New Galio is meant to pretty much just go straight tank, so while technically he might be able to go mid, maybe, he's just not going to be there much either way (of course, I haven't played much new galio, but still).

ErockandrollJun 23, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not Too Serious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V05Ah58E,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T16:27:35.138+0000)

I mean old Galio kind of worked mid lane because he did more of a mix between AP and MR most of the time, so he was still quite a lot of damage.

New Galio is meant to pretty much just go straight tank, so while technically he might be able to go mid, maybe, he's just not going to be there much either way (of course, I haven't played much new galio, but still).

Old Galio felt more like what I would call a Melee mage. (Think Cho'gath) Though he had Melee range on his AA, he still focused largely on his ranged spells. his W was more utility. But he really didn't have enough CC to function as a tank, and the only time you really wanted to go melee is if you wanted to nail the team with your ult.

New Galio still has both AP and MR scaling, however his kit is more cohesive as a tank. He has engage with his Justice Punch, and putting his taunt on his W instead of his ult, gives him more reliable lockup. While you could still go Melee mage with his Q, he's got more going for him with functioning as the team tank.

StusauceJun 23, 20171 votes

That's fair enough. I didn't mean that Riot would officially endorse that a champ be used for a specific lane/position. More like design with a certain role in mind, that, as you said, typically goes to a certain lane. I believe, however, it's not so much tradition, as much as it is overall effectiveness that determines where most people play a champ. The reason we have lanes such as they are now is because of the adaptations players have made to counter other strategies. Back in season 1/2 ADC went mid, until players adapted and started putting mages there to blow the ADC up. There are some naturally occurring differences in lane assignments (the shorter/safer lane as you mentioned, position relative to dragon, etc.) and there are match-up made reasons (e.g. taking a mage against an Irelia).

You are exactly right that having a tank mid generally results in a trade off of not having the ADC-deleting AP mage, as they typically can't go top lane or jungle to great effect (see my previous statement on match-ups). This is fine and a perfectly legit strategy, so I'm not saying it should be discouraged or frowned upon.

I think at the end of the day, what I'm trying to say is that Riot should balance Galio based off of past precedent and current performance, without regard to which lane they're balancing for. His role is a tank, and as such he should be balanced around that. If they justified nerfing tank's wave clear/push previously, then they should apply that to Galio as well, even it reduced his effectiveness in the mid lane. It's not so much that I want him nerfed FOR mid lane, it's that I want him nerfed to be consistent with other tanks.

Anu3isIIJun 23, 20171 votes

I suggested the Q Damage nerf because it would hurt Tank Galio a lot more than AP Galio.

Think about this: Tank Galio with only a Doran's Ring can waveclear as easily as most of AP mages in the early-mid game. AP Galio, in theory, should have a lot more Damage than Tank Galio (as his Q AP ratio is huge). What I would do is nerf his Q's base Damage so that Tank Galio struggles a bit with waveclearing, while keeping AP Galio's waveclear almost the same. If AP Galio needs some kind of buff, I would buff his AP ratios.

The only way I see them reducing his effectiveness vs AD and increase it vs AP is by reducing his base stats from abilities and increase his MR ratios, so that he has to build MR items to recover his lost stats. He currently is like Old Kassadin, he doesn't care about his innate advantage vs Magic Damage, he is good almost all the time.

RalanrJun 23, 20176 votes

Imo, nerfing his base DR and giving it more focus on MR scaling might be enough. He'd still be a bit of a bully, but he'd transition weaker into mid and late if against teams that don't require him to build much magic resist.

Anu3isIIJun 23, 20173 votes

The thing is that Tank Galio mid is already weaker into mid and late game, as he is mostly picked for his bully potential (as he has very high base Damage while building Tanky). He falls of because his Damage cannot keep up with the Damage output of a Mage.

I suggested to nerf his DR in favour of MR scaling just because he most of the times builds AR+HP items and sometimes one MR item. Because of his HP and DR, he can Tank even the Magic Damage dealers, unless they deal damage over time (Cass, Malzahar, Swain etc)

But this will not change the main problem, which is Galio's Tank build being better than the intended AP bruiser build, even in the mid lane. As Tank Galio has enough Damage to waveclearin the early game, AP Galio can afford to lose some Damage on his Q to nerf Tank Galio's Damage (if not... then Q's AP ratio could be increased again... which I would totally avoid to do it).

RalanrJun 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But this will not change the main problem, which is Galio's Tank build being better than the intended AP bruiser build, even in the mid lane. As Tank Galio has enough Damage to waveclearin the early game, AP Galio can afford to lose some Damage on his Q to nerf Tank Galio's Damage (if not... then Q's AP ratio could be increased again... which I would totally avoid to do it).

That's not a problem, that's intended. Galio's not an AP bruiser, he's a tank and is designed to function as one.

Anu3isIIJun 23, 20171 votes

I thought they Riot wanted to please both Full-Tank players and AP Galio players... I mean, look at his AP Ratios and his damage overall.

RalanrJun 23, 20171 votes

Every tank that has primarily AP scalings also has high base damage when they are built for top or jungle.

Galio is not unique there.

Anu3isIIJun 23, 20171 votes

That isn't what I wanted to say... I wanted to underline how high his AP scalings really are, alongside his huge base damage:

Passive: 80 + 100% AD + 40% AP + 40% bonus magic resistance

Q: 305 base damage + 120% AP + 6% of targets maximum health (also on 6 sec cooldown)

E: 260 base damage + 70% AP

R: 350 base damage + 70% AP

With a proper build, AP Galio can kill squishies only with one rotation of his basic abilities and his Passive.

Even old Sejuani, one of the few Tanks who could work as an AP mid laner, would be jealous on Galio's AP ratios. Most Tanks have AP ratios, but none of them have AP ratios as high as Galio (except a Nunu with a fully charged Ultimate...)

RalanrJun 23, 20171 votes

So could AD Sion, AP Zac, and hell AP Maokai could do that a few patches ago.

morris1Jun 23, 201713 votes

Galio has clearly defined strengths but not enough weaknesses.

LethalTempo JhinJun 23, 20174 votes

More like, Galio has so many strengths but you won't 1v5 on him.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 23, 201712 votes

cuz RITO [zombie-brand-facepalm]

JaxMoonStealerJun 23, 201712 votes

Galio is supposed to be the Rammus of magic damage yet he's good against any kind of team comp. They should nerf both this Q damage and his damage reduction and focus more on his anti-magic theme, just like Rammus and Malphite are anti-AD.

I don't mind Galio being OP as long as it's against heavy AP team comps.

The DeckownerJun 23, 20173 votes

exactly, when you see the OG MR tank is being picked into full ad comp you know something is wrong with the rework.

My Waifu VanillaJun 23, 20171 votes

The problem is he would be awful if he wasn't as generalistic. If his W/R only worked against magic damage for instance he would just be a bigger lifesteal sponge for the ADC and would die more often than not.

I would be fine with this direction change, if and only if, ADC gets looked at to not be drain tank, burst damage, tank killing monsters. An ADC is ALWAYS on each team so you NEED some way to deal with physical damage to be a viable tank (whether it be bonus armor on malph/rammus or big general shields/healing on Mao/Naut) and not having one of those means you will get kited and die to/heal the enemy carry without 2+ armor items.

mr Boombastic787Jun 24, 20171 votes

Yes! They should make different tanks excel in different situations and be more specialized for a specific thing.

Galio should be very good against magic damage and not so good against ad teams as you've already said. I think they should make his W and Ult damage reduction either scale with mr or give magic damage reduction. Also his Q should not have such high base damage and instead scale more with ap. In that way if he builds damage he will be able to do more damage but not be so tanky, and if he builds tank stats he will not do as much damage but still be very tanky.

I don't think they should make Galio complete trash against AD teams but he should be much better against magic damage dealers

TeeTohrJun 23, 20178 votes

Rito level of dedication to a strategy towards rework !

GelsominoKillerJun 23, 20175 votes

I will tell you the reason behind this:

Competitive play.

We witnessed a fair amount of Nautilus vs Maokai toplane, invariably.

Riot disliked that de facto only the supertanks were viable, and decided they were the issue to eliminate.

Unfortunately they failed to realize that this polarization was mainly due to the broken environment of the lethality metagame et similia. You just couldn't tank the pen without spammable shields and %dmg reduction+constant healing.

Honestly, if Maokai and Nautilus were to return to their previous state right now, they wouldn't be pick/ban in this metagame where their natural counters are strong (toplane aggressive bruisers: kled, renekton, jarvan etc).

You're asking why did they relase Galio afterwards? I don't know.

But then, why rework Maokai for being a staple generalist in pro play, when Orianna and Lee Sin are way worse offenders at this? I don't know either, but maybe it has something to do with #LCSbigplays.

SweedishGunnerJun 23, 20177 votes

The fact Ori hasn't been touched yet annoys me. She bullies, she bursts, she gives shields, resists, speed buffs and has a multi man CC for an ult.

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20171 votes

Riot needs to stop fucking balancing around LCS. It's NOT going to make me watch it live, it's NOT going to stop people from taking tp mid, it's NOT going to make people play less global presence champs. It's only making solo Q harder.

AwesomeGuyDjJun 23, 20175 votes

Sejuani is nerfed because "she had her time in the spotlight". Lee sin has had the spotlight since his fucking creation. Malz and yorick are reworked for being unfun/the wave clear on malz is too strong. Yet we have champs like pantheon (he is so binary, he has a kit designed to win lane) and champs like ekko who can q the wave constantly.

Glory ln DeathJun 23, 20174 votes

As far as the Maokai vs Galio comparison goes, there's a huge difference between the two. Maokai's Vengeful Maelstrom was an AOE damage reduction aura that could last up to - what was it, 10 seconds? On the other hand, Galio's ult gives damage reduction to only 1 target for 1 or 2 seconds while on his way to that ally. That's not nearly as much generalist power.

mr Boombastic787Jun 24, 20171 votes

This is true but he still is too much of a jack of all trades.

I think riot should nerf his base Q damage and make it scale better with AP and also make him more focused on the anti magic aspect instead of being as good against ad.

Serika ZeroJun 23, 20173 votes

Let me put this for you in another perspective: Design team: lets rework galio Design team: yay, good, we all agree on that Design team: what should he be like ... 3 months of concept discussion

Design team: so, aoe weave clear, aoe taunt and damage reduction as basics with some mobility patched to him Design team: yep, that sounds great and fun to play ... 2 more months to design the actual abilities and start implementing them

Design team: good job everyone, now the galio rework is close to an end, we all did a great job Validation team: the new galio seems cool Validation team: the new galio is a lot like maokai and nautilius guys Validation team: we can't do this again like we did with lucian being graves v2.0, every hero should be UNIQUE (written in pink and with shadow in rainbow collour) Validation team: balance team, solve this issue!!!! Balance team: well, we could send Galio back to the Design team Balance team: hey guys at Design team, do you want to recheck and redesign your galio? there are some "identity" conflicts here Design team: no, we did a great job with Galio, we ain't backing down, we finished our job and now we are working on evelyn Balance team: oh fuck >.> Balance team: meh, since they insisted passes maokai and nautilius to the rework team Design team: wtf fam? Balance team: you didn't want Galio, so, now take care of these 2 Design team: we are busy!!!! Balance team: so are we!!! Design team: ok, we will take care of them, but only 1. Since its a 1 for 1 trade. Balance team: wtf fam? Design team: exactly our point Balance team: fuck it, make your choice Design team: who looks more like our galio? the melee strong wave clear nautilius or the aoe damage reduction maokai? Design team: obviously, our Galio has wave clear from range, its totally different. Let's pick maokai. Design team: we will take maokai Balance team: we will take nautilius then

... 2 more months releases, reworks and rebalances The end

The DeckownerJun 23, 20171 votes

this actually match the timeline, 7.6 galio rework, 7.8 nautilis nerf, 7.9 maokai rework.

Serika ZeroJun 23, 20171 votes

the thing is, champion creation (galio is basically a new champion, just like pre rework fiora and her reworked version, or sion, etc) takes a long time, there were rummors about fiora's rework 1 year before the rework was released for example

so, i really expect something similar to this to have had happened. Mainly because rito is obsessed with uniqness ... even tho, heroes are unique in their mains eyes. Its not about the overall picture, but the details. And riot seems to ignore those details which create unique feelings about each one

DurzakaJun 23, 20171 votes

so, aoe weave clear, aoe taunt and damage reduction as basics with some mobility patched to him

Just saying, old Galio had literally all of this, except the mobility. And his lack of mobility (to properly be able to utilize his ult without flash) was why he was basically never picked.

So sounds like a reasonably successful accurate rework.

Serika ZeroJun 23, 20171 votes

the problem is that riot is obsessed with "unique identity" and they are willing to sacrifice some heroes in favor of others in this case, they pretty much sacrificed maokai and kind of nauti

DurzakaJun 23, 20171 votes

Except Galios problem is not his kit, its his numbers. Thats why he is such a generalist.

Naut had similar problems, hence the nerfed E damage.

Maokai had kit problems making him a generalist (specifically the ult just being good in literally every team fight that could possibly happen in the game.

HelmightJun 23, 20173 votes

Since old Galio was viable mid and top, Riot tried to make new Galio viable in the same lanes as well. However, if he went mid against a mage, he'd spend all game under tower and never get a chance to roam with his ultimate. The waveclear on Colossal Smash/Winds of War was intended to help this, though clearly Riot overshot on his bases.

If Galio was changed so that he had to build AP in order to access his waveclear, he loses his ability to free push the lane top if he's rushing defensive items, while maintaining his sort of "AP tank" midlane builds.

Galio's ultimate isn't exactly a universal ability. Since it doesn't lock to a champion - and since Galio is usually the only tank on a team - he has difficulty using it to initiate, which means that its defensive utility is what Galio will use it for most of the time. It's like a less-universally good Shen ultimate.

At any rate, I doubt Riot's intention with Galio was to nerf both of the previous universal tanks and set up a new one in their place. Galio's a bit busted, but he's been receiving nerfs and can be gotten to a good spot.

Envoy of MelodyJun 23, 20172 votes

New Maokai is great, I don't get the problem. You hide in brush, wait for somebody to come, use ultimate, bind them with W before they can flash or run out of it, hit them with your ultimate root, position behind them, Q to push them into your teammates, dead.

Also Saplings in brush for pentakills

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Envoy of Melody,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V05Ah58E,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-23T13:31:48.787+0000)

New Maokai is great, I don't get the problem. You hide in brush, wait for somebody to come, use ultimate, bind them with W before they can flash or run out of it, hit them with your ultimate root, position behind them, Q to push them into your teammates, dead.

Also Saplings in brush for pentakills

if you have to wait in a brush as a tank to even remotely do your job effectively then there's a problem lol

Mister SupportJun 23, 20171 votes

Hi have you ever heard of surprise engages/picks?

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frost Fae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V05Ah58E,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2017-06-23T14:04:04.680+0000)

Hi have you ever heard of surprise engages/picks?

if you NEED to make surprise picks and engages to do your job effectively then there's a problem. Did rewording my previous comment help you understand?

My Waifu VanillaJun 23, 20171 votes

Mao isn't a main tank is honestly the bigger problem with him. He works great in dual tank comps since the other tank can actually engage fights, but he is more of a peeler than anything without a second tank to help him out. Maokai is arguably stronger now than before due to the massive passive buff/item changes to make him much tankier. The only downside is that he still can't actually front line by himself (old maokai couldn't really either but he synergized better with short ranged carries who could stand in his ult).

The DeckownerJun 23, 20171 votes

If you need to hide in a bush to cheese the enemy as a frontliner there is something very wrong with the champion design.

Big LincolnJun 23, 20172 votes

Galio has anti-mage stats with an anti-diver kit

FlemmanJun 23, 20171 votes

did you played old galio or not, because it was already like that. (clear with Q from afar, buff allied with insane W stéroid, full tank build with one ap item)

don't really know why poeple complain a lot about galio kit atm since, with doran stack nerf, is laning phase mana sustain is back to pre reworked state and he fit his mage/tank purpose like he was used to be.

Tbh, the only thing he need to be in a good spot is a greater selfslow on W so their is a real choice between fast released or not (half the buff on ult but with a 150% ranged increased would be a good switch in power too, since their is less change a squishy carry will live till he land)

The DeckownerJun 23, 20171 votes

I usually see old Galio either going full ap or full mr tank, not this abomination of building full armor against full ad team and still work.

FlemmanJun 24, 20171 votes

if he didn't work with full armor against a full ad team, as a champion with decent cc, then galio will not be the problem, but ad itemsation ignoring all armor he had build (work with any tank in fact, seju/gragas/... will all work with full armor against a full ad team)

no, if he go full armor against a team with at least one ap damage dealer, the build will be bad and he will not survive that long

General Esdeath Jun 23, 20171 votes

Riot logic

Torterra62Jun 24, 20171 votes

well a lot of people are complainging about damage reduction in the current meta and i think if mao still had his ult plus all the shit with deaths dance and phantom dancer making for that unkillable adc or front line, which ever one mao is near