So why did you even make dynamic queue in the first place? It already shits on solo players and now it's going to shit on 5 man teams as well?
Do you even see what you are doing Riot? What exactly was even broken that you fixed with dynamic queue?
WadeWilson133757 votesDynamicQ was only made to have people who are relatively new to the game get their friends to play with them to bring a wider source of income to Riot. Its not for comepetitive integrity, or the possibility of reducing toxicity. Just like Hextech crafting, it is not something to be done out of the good of their hearts, but is done in hopes of lining their pockets. Its a cash grab to get people to play with friends which means those friends tell their friends and promotes an increase in the playerbase. What Riot fails to realize is that these people are only going to really be hooked by their friends, rather than actually enjoying the game. This is why many veteran players both feel alienated and have began abandoning this game as it has abandoned them. Riot is essentially trading 1 loyal, die hard fan/customer who has likely spent hundreds of dollars on this game over the years over 3-5 people who may not spend anything at all.
Fovere12 votesDynamicQ was only made to have people who are relatively new to the game get their friends to play with them to bring a wider source of income to Riot. Its not for comepetitive integrity, or the possibility of reducing toxicity. Just like Hextech crafting, it is not something to be done out of the good of their hearts, but is done in hopes of lining their pockets. Its a cash grab to get people to play with friends which means those friends tell their friends and promotes an increase in the playerbase. What Riot fails to realize is that these people are only going to really be hooked by their friends, rather than actually enjoying the game. This is why many veteran players both feel alienated and have began abandoning this game as it has abandoned them. Riot is essentially trading 1 loyal, die hard fan/customer who has likely spent hundreds of dollars on this game over the years over 3-5 people who may not spend anything at all.
Pretty much.
DQ is designed to increase interest of casual and newer players in ranked gameplay, who don't want that accountability for their own successes and failures, or play with friends "for fun". The hope is to give that sense of purpose and achievement over to those other groups, who likely represent a much larger player base at this point.
This is the only explanation that makes any kind of sense for such an obvious hit to game integrity. They want X demographic to have fun in ranked game mode because they believe it will gain them more loyalty /permanence from that group, which represents a vastly more significant chunk of their income.
Kudrov18 votesIn the Video, Lobbster, the main dev for DynamicQ said : "we never had that much peoples playing ranked right now" to trying to tell us there never been that much players playing since DynamicQ come out like it was a great thing.
well no shit sherlock whats left?
SoloQ GONE, Ranked's 5 GONE, TwistedTreeline ranked GONE, TeamBuilder GONE, Dominon GONE.
is it me or the next STEP is League of Legend GONE.
A Basic Island1 votesliterally everything that he said in the video irritated me. There were so many things coming out of his (and socrates) mouth that i didn't like
WadeWilson13371 votesYou forget to mention that Riot has neglected ARAM as much as possible this season. It STILL doesn't have champion mastery, which i can 100% guarantee is done only to influence players away from it.
Aír2 votesPlease don't hate me for this comment, I am just playing devil's advocate here. >.<
But if DQ is designed to increase interest in the casual and newer players in ranked gameplay, then doesn't that generally do its job in lower elos? I mean, don't get me wrong, I am a Plat support main aspiring to hit master by the end of the season (I can see you judging, I can at least try), but if DQ truly is a way to increase the amount of casual players particularlly in lower elos (since casual players are probably not gonna hit higher elos) and higher elos (Diamond+) is generally more competitive and in want of something like old solo queue (which was less geared toward the "casual") now that there is a potential autofill option after long enough queue times and only solo-trio being allowed.
Just a thought. From what you said, it seems like they are heading toward the right direction. >.<
Fovere1 votes[{quoted}](name=Airman CompSci,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UxsLcKHb,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2016-06-02T13:13:37.382+0000)
Please don't hate me for this comment, I am just playing devil's advocate here. >.<
But if DQ is designed to increase interest in the casual and newer players in ranked gameplay, then doesn't that generally do its job in lower elos? I mean, don't get me wrong, I am a Plat support main aspiring to hit master by the end of the season (I can see you judging, I can at least try), but if DQ truly is a way to increase the amount of casual players particularlly in lower elos (since casual players are probably not gonna hit higher elos) and higher elos (Diamond+) is generally more competitive and in want of something like old solo queue (which was less geared toward the "casual") now that there is a potential autofill option after long enough queue times and only solo-trio being allowed.
Just a thought. From what you said, it seems like they are heading toward the right direction. >.<
What is the right direction?
If the right direction is a healthy, competitive game then no. They clearly are not headed in the right direction.
The ranked ladder serves fundamentally two purposes. One, to allow you to gauge your performance against everyone else. Two, you give you stable, balanced games where you can (enjoy the game, obviously, but also) improve your performance and see those improvements reflected by an increase in MMR.
The objectives to improving here would be to increase player interest in gameplay (!!!), rather that simply playing the game. This really separates the fundamental attitudes between the "ranked" mentality and "normal" mentality. Which is why we have the two different game modes.
DQ serves to increase the amount of player apathy in ranked, which not a good thing. People who come into that game mode should be there to play and climb, or the whole thing becomes a complete mess, which is exactly what's happened. The problem is you no longer have that (relatively) stable game environment where you can practice and improve and climb.
Sure, if you're already good, you'll climb. But good luck to you if you're bronze/silver/gold and trying to learn and improve.
WadeWilson13371 votesDynamicQ honestly isnt that bad for bronze-platinum. The problem is your rank means very little now, as now when that deuchebag Plat V player calls you a "Fuckin Bronzie", even though he has a silver border, you have no way of knowing if he got that Plat V rank himself, or if he just played with a bunch of diamond friends on smurfs who boosted him, or if he just straight up got boosted by an actual booster. This means there is very little incentize for solo lower elo players to better themselves and climb because rank doesnt have any personal value at this point, even in masters/challenger scene people dont care about your rank at this point.
And while Higher elo is more similar to old soloq....it is done in the worst possible ways. Theres alot of people who played with friends to get to Diamond this season (because lets face it, its pretty god damn easy to get there premading), who know cant play with their friends because they worked well together. LCS teams can now no longer queqe up together and play, which while i think is a good thing, it is definately a negative for them. And the atrocious autofill system gets rid of LITERALLY the ONLY and i mean the ONLY positive thing about DynamicQ and the new champ select at the moment, especially for higher elo. Do you really think Bjergsen wants to get autofilled into Support? Not to mention there is several masters+ players who have spoken out about losing games because people got filled in roles they simply cant play and get stomped by people who have played literally thousands of games on it.
Also, if what i said about higher elo doesnt convince you, a lot of pro players have actually stopped playing DynamicQ and have their own personal soloQ going on Tournament realms, where they sacrifice their ability to stream games. So now there is no pro players in NA dynamicQ outside of smurfs and a choice few others, and there is no streaming going on. Its a complete shit storm.
MetalGearTeemu9 votesWe call this the "World of Warcraft" curve.
WadeWilson13371 votesSadly enough, when Blizzard released Raid Finder and more casual friendly options, it was when my interest in the game dropped and i left it alltogether quite shortly after. Also sadly, my interest in League has dropped ever since DynamicQ was released, and i have played one game in the past 3 weeks, and i didnt even enjoy it regardless of the fact i carried and won. I dont even watch pro games anymore because its literally the same champions over and over and over again and the constant stalling out of games.
UPfreely3 votesI prefer to call it the 'WoW factor'
MetalGearTeemu2 votessounds too much like "Wong Factor"
The full spelling is to prevent confusion when the papers published.
Spoofghoul1 votesyou forget 1 thing
the extremely awkward and horrible new player experience
i bet you half the new players leave before hitting level 10
and alot of the ''new'' players are smurfs
WadeWilson13371 votesActually, youre quite wrong. I let my brother play my account for a few Coop vs AI games, and Dear God, the amount of bots in those games is absolutely astounding. Out of the 3 games he played, the first one had 2 bots, the second legitimately was all bots other than him, and the third one had 2 as well. Its been this way since they changed leveling and removed dominion, the new player experience is just flooded with bots that dont do anything but feed, say random words like "push" and sometimes dont even buy items.
Aír1 votesActually, they are able to detect who is a smurf and who isn't relatively quickly (after a few games) and a new player generally does not play with a smurf (unless they are god awful, I think, not sure) and smurfs only play with other smurfs. I only state this from personal experience. When my brother and I started playing, we actually saw almost no smurfs (my brother less so but I think that is mostly since he started playing after me and they might have improved the system since then). My brother didn't have to deal with that much toxicity at all when he started playing. I watched him play sometimes (cringe) and every time I watched I never saw a smurf. But on my alt/smurf (I don't know if Plat is high enough to call smurf yet) I only play with other smurfs and those people are just plain evil. Goodness I don't think I have seen people that toxic in a while. Some of them are just god awful or misinformed too. Like one person who thought veigar support wasn't a thing because annie, brand and vel'koz weren't supports either. Then proceeds to ban veigar and flame me all game after I first time try xerath (it was a norms) as a support. I actually did farly well and got my adc to go 18/3 by the end of the game, but he kept flaming me so bad. He was also apparently Bronze 1 on his main.
sigh
Zedex2 votesYes, how dare Riot have business practices that make it money from its customers/consumers
And how dare the playerbase for actually giving them money, meanwhile its completely optional and cosmetic, as everything useful or needed can be earned in game with the currency you get for free.
But yes, DQ is totally a money making scheme.
Are you a business major or something..? Because man, you're obviously so spot on.
Raizan Star2 votesYes, how dare Riot have business practices that make it money from its customers/consumers
And how dare the playerbase for actually giving them money, meanwhile its completely optional and cosmetic, as everything useful or needed can be earned in game with the currency you get for free.
But yes, DQ is totally a money making scheme.
Are you a business major or something..? Because man, you're obviously so spot on.
I think what people are upset about it that they sell themselves as a "Games made by gamers, for gamers" kindof company and try to have this image of caring for the playerbase and use that to set them apart from other games. And with that said then they try to pull these tactics to increase profits even at the expense of alienating a lot of dedicated players.
GaleWinUnleashed19 votesPerhaps if Riot realized that we don't need Dynamic Queue to encourage "playing with friends"; the same system in normals does that just fine. If you want to play with a few friends just to have fun, don't play Ranked. Ranked is not for fun (you should still have fun, of course, but that's not the primary goal); it's supposed to be a competitive environment to both hone and display your skills.
Edit: rephrased first sentence
TheStevenWu1 votesPerhaps if Riot realized that "playing with friends" is what normals are for; we don't need Dynamic Queue to do that. If you want to play with a few friends just to have fun, don't play Ranked. Ranked is not for fun (you should still have fun, of course, but that's not the primary goal); it's supposed to be a competitive environment to both hone and display your skills.
"Playing with friends" is NOT what normals are for.
Ranked = measuring your abilities against other people. Normals = don't care to compare competitively.
You can do both while playing solo or playing with friends. Some people want to be ranked but do not enjoy playing solo (because to be honest, the grinding the same game over and over again becomes boring). So what's the solution? Playing ranked with your friends because playing with friends is significantly more fun than playing solo.
GaleWinUnleashed8 votesI'll rephrase a bit. If you're playing with friends because they're fun to play with, and not because you're trying to form a competitive group, then normals is sufficient. If your primary goal for playing with a group is to be able to coordinate plays and pull off more complicated strategies, to increase your chances of winning, then you probably want to play Ranked with that team.
Normals = "for fun"
Ranked = "for competition"
Nimble Manta1 votesI play with ranked with friends because it's more fun than playing ranked by myself. Playing solo isn't any more competitive than playing with friends, in fact it's probably less so becuase team game.
GaleWinUnleashed3 votesIt's certainly a team game, but there's something to be said for the ability to adapt and coordinate with complete strangers to execute complex strategies.
Nimble Manta1 votesThe question is should that be required or not. Should person A with gold level mechanics and strategy be ranked silver because he doesn't have the people skills to lead a bunch of random people?
GaleWinUnleashed1 votesIf Riot's eventual goal with Dynamic Queue is to eventually have Ranked require a full team, I wish they'd just come out and tell us. Until they do, solo players are still an issue and need to be properly accommodated.
MrWasjig1 votesI wish they'd just come out and tell us.
You're saying that off the back of what's just happened in the last 6 months, that culminated a few days ago? Well prepare to wait another 6 months before they say anything else. I'd recommend getting a chair or something to sit in, you'll be waiting a while.
BluePolarizer1 votesyes. social skills are part of the game. well, were.
in the real world, a guy who is amazing at programming or basketball that told his coworkers or teammates to "fuck off scrubs" would be fired instantly.
KarKzz1 votesYes. If you have gold mechanics and strategy, and aren't gold, you are probably just silver. But the difference between silver and gold rank is abysmall anyway.
The problem is not about "competitiveness" but more like, "unfair for the solo". The game is more competitive for the premade, since they have to communicate , and out-manoeuver the other premade... But what about the solos ? The game is now LESS competitive for them, they are generaly left out, and can't "out think" the other team, because they are coordinated, and is forced to follow the premade tacticals choices.
Nimble Manta1 votesI've been in situations where I was a solo player with a premade and honestly it isn't that hard to work with them. You just have to remember that you aren't the shot caller. I think a large part of the issue is that solo players wanna do what they wanna do, and if the premade has a different idea then it's the premades fault for "lack of communication."
I'm sorry but I'm trying to understand this "solo players are at a disadvantage when there's premades on both sides."
Nanuk Pihoqahiak9 votesNothing wrong broken. They changed the system and it brewed ire within the community. Riot for whatever reason likes to change things because they think they have a new vision that everyone will love.
Fenikkusu15 votesThey changed it just to change it.
Tufio9 votessomeone who play with firends is more likely to $$$ for skin/champs/stuff
That's all.
Be damned legit ranked Be damned solos Be damned real teams
Xonra4 votessomeone who play with firends is more likely to $$$ for skin/champs/stuff
Except that unfortunately this isn't always true.
Sure pure numbers increase sounds like "more chance for someone to spend money" but they aren't thinking it through fully.
I've spent about 1k+ on this game in 5 years.
Someone might join for 3 months because "a friend said we can play ranked together". That doesn't mean they will spend any money, and at most they might spend...what 50 dollars max between 3 people?
So they are willing to piss off someone that has money to spend like me, for 3 people that aren't likely to even be playing League of Legends come September of this year.
Not arguing with you by the way, just elaborating that Riot's assumption is not 100% correct, and is also VERY short-sighted.
Just to break it down, would you rather have:
Guy who is known to have spent a LOT of money and has been 5 years dedicated
or
3 guys who have no track record of spending, and have played less than 6 months.
Sadly Riot doesn't seem to be asking themselves that same question.
Xonra6 votesDo you even see what you are doing Riot? What exactly was even broken that you fixed with dynamic queue?
To them "It's less toxic now. Less toxicity because friends" when in reality, most of the toxicity I used to see what due to people not getting the role they wanted (I would say 60%-70% of the toxicity in champ select and in game).
It was even brought up in the video (Gbay I believe said it). The new champ select greatly lowered toxicity. If anything, I feel DQ has increased it a bit as a whole. Sure the people in the premade might be less toxic to EACH OTHER, but that isn't say they won't be toxic to the non-premade people, the people won't be more toxic to the premade, and not even taking into account how frustrating it is to be in a group with 3 people refusing to even talk, ping, or respond (which is its own form of toxicity in reality).
Riot just has a conclusion based on assumption, and are discrediting the real cause and effect, and trying to give credit to DQ for the improvement in toxicity. They've had no other real argument for it than that.
Parceval5 votesThat is a good point. There's no competitive groups. How do 'Challenger' teams work now?
The Yetii Rider4 votesToxicity was fixed. There are lower levels of rage when you talk about people grouped together. In honesty a lot of games I play lately have had silence, but when people do talk the generally don't rage that much.
It's possible that some form of this is based on the role selection that was added at the same time, but because it was added at the same time the data gathered is a combination of two independent variables.
Maybe toxicity would be just as low in solo queue with role selection, but we'll never know.
New champ select also fixed people afking during champ select. That's way down, I think I've had only one game all season where someone got into game but never connected. That's huge.
Xonra4 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UxsLcKHb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-06-01T17:07:14.228+0000)
It's possible that some form of this is based on the role selection that was added at the same time, but because it was added at the same time the data gathered is a combination of two independent variables.
Yup
New champ select also fixed people afking during champ select. That's way down, I think I've had only one game all season where someone got into game but never connected. That's huge.
This is the entire problem with Riot's current data and conclusion they are stating as fact. They added the new champ select the same time they implemented Dynamic Queue, so we don't know what caused what in reality.
They seem to be completely discounting the new champ select and giving all the credit to DQ (likely to try and combat all the negative reaction)
Vistha Kai2 votesNot thanks to Dynamic Queue.
New champion select didn't fix people AFKing in lobby, because
Zone of Endless4 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UxsLcKHb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-06-01T17:07:14.228+0000)
Toxicity was fixed. There are lower levels of rage when you talk about people grouped together. In honesty a lot of games I play lately have had silence, but when people do talk the generally don't rage that much.
It's possible that some form of this is based on the role selection that was added at the same time, but because it was added at the same time the data gathered is a combination of two independent variables.
Maybe toxicity would be just as low in solo queue with role selection, but we'll never know.
New champ select also fixed people afking during champ select. That's way down, I think I've had only one game all season where someone got into game but never connected. That's huge.
I mean if you're in a premade you're not gonna rage at your friends that much and even if you do you're likely in a voice chat anyway.
So when Riot say dynamic Q reduced toxicity I just think that point is invalid.
SirPurrr1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UxsLcKHb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-06-01T17:07:14.228+0000)
Toxicity was fixed. There are lower levels of rage when you talk about people grouped together. In honesty a lot of games I play lately have had silence, but when people do talk the generally don't rage that much.
It's possible that some form of this is based on the role selection that was added at the same time, but because it was added at the same time the data gathered is a combination of two independent variables.
Maybe toxicity would be just as low in solo queue with role selection, but we'll never know.
New champ select also fixed people afking during champ select. That's way down, I think I've had only one game all season where someone got into game but never connected. That's huge.
Even if true, I'd rather have ranked integrity and deal with more toxicity. There is a mute button after all. Personally, I haven't noticed a difference in toxicity. All they've done is make the rankings more ambiguous by lumping every queue configuration into a single ranking and not separating solo performance in any way.
DQ is just a cash grab, as others have said. There is nothing more to it than that. I guess Riot sold its soul along with its company. They don't give a shit about a ranked system which actually shows individual performance in a consistent way.
The Yetii Rider1 votesEven if true, I'd rather have ranked integrity and deal with more toxicity. There is a mute button after all. Personally, I haven't noticed a difference in toxicity. All they've done is make the rankings more ambiguous by lumping every queue configuration into a single ranking and not separating solo performance in any way.
DQ is just a cash grab, as others have said. There is nothing more to it than that. I guess Riot sold its soul along with its company. They don't give a shit about a ranked system which actually shows individual performance in a consistent way.
Chill out. They said they're looking for a metric to better represent individual skill in DQ. They might come up with something good.
SirPurrr1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UxsLcKHb,comment-id=000400040000,timestamp=2016-06-02T12:14:03.701+0000)
Chill out. They said they're looking for a metric to better represent individual skill in DQ. They might come up with something good.
A grading system is just as unreliable. The only true metric is your results under a consistent experience for all players.
Kudrov4 votesNot only that, but why didn't you TEST IT for 2 years STRAIGHT IF YOU NEEDED TO and but throwing this live and after 893746847 days reconize it was a poor job WTF
Vik4prez3 votesI really love it. They complain that queue times are too long, but the reason queue times are so long is specifically because of DQ, but they refuse to want to admit it and are just taking steps to try and make it seem like DQ is fine.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesNo, que times are too long because most of the player base doesn't want to work with anyone so they pick top/mid since marksman/jungle/support require you to look watch someone elses back (In the case of jungle, 4 people's backs).
Noksterz3 votesIt fixed nothing. They want league to be for casual scum. So "now you can even play ranked with all your friends" to ruin it for everyone else. It wasnt an improvement. Its just worse all around. Riot is unbelievably lost when it comes to their own game anymore.
Xeruon2 votesTL;DR: Lobster is an idiot.
TwitchInMyPants2 votesToxicity being fixed is a straight up lie btw. Yea there's less each game on average because its the collective call of a premade whether they as a unit are going to be toxic or not. And if they're 5 together then there's no solo player to harass, so obviously that alone is going to lower the numbers. But I don't care about that when 4 mans when they choose to be toxic are much worse than queueing with 4 randoms because they organize to shit on you the whole time and I have to mute the whole damn team to get anything done and I still have to deal with all their ping spamming reminding me how dumb my team is. Stuff like that more than compensates for any toxicity removed because toxicity has always been a problem for the solo players more than anybody, pretending you've made everything amazing by introducing premades to the ranked environment is a downright lie.
ForeverLaxx1 votesThere is only one reason Riot is so hellbent on this system, and it becomes clear the more they talk about Dynamic Queue. That reason?
Toxicity.
Yes, Dynamic Queue is only meant to reduce "toxicity", that thing Riot believes they can eradicate. Every time they drag out their "data", they always put Reduced Toxicity as a focus. Since this "data" shows how much better players are treating each other statistically (because of fewer total reports), they're convinced the system is exactly what the game needs.
Of course, the problem with this is that the players are just as toxic as they always are, except now it's confined to third-party chat programs where it can't be policed, noticed, or acted upon. It's my belief that this is the real reason Riot won't introduce a voice chat system despite their insistence that League is best played with people you can communicate with directly without having to stop and type. Once you can use an in-game voice system, all this "toxicity reduction" they strived so hard to pretend is happening will be shown to them and they wouldn't be able to sweep it under the rug anymore.
BluePolarizer2 voteshasn't reduced toxicity. still people typing essays into chat when I play normals with low level friends.
