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I need help with jungling vs counter junglers.

Archangel Wolff··7 votes·2,337 views

My current elo is mid to low silver, and i wanna know how to deal with junglers who camp my jungle 100% of the game. Recently i had a game vs a shaco as lee, he ganks top at lvl 3 with blue so i know he invaded. i counter jg and take his blue. downhill from there. he then attacks me at raptors at level 4, then at wolves right after. then he proceeded to spend 100% of the game camping me in my jg waiting for me to get low, i warded as best i could, as lee i feel item 2049 takes away from potential dmg/tank so i go item 1408 and with only 2 wards didnt wanna get sweeper, though i did anyway. The only time this shaco left my jungle was to cleanup a lane that was low, he wouldnt gank to get his team kills but to get kills himself. but first because i know someone will probably say it, "don't play lee in low elo". yes i know lee is bad for low elo but i play him for fun anyway, and this subject is not what i need help with. lee is just this example. the only ideas i could comeup with was to stay in his jg, but that ran the risk of getting caught even worse. Shaco proceeds to try to say im bad at jungling and with lee because, and i quote"you dont know the fundamentals of jungling", and"a good lee would know how to beat shaco". At level 3 and after, he basically 2 shot half my hp with thunderlords before either of us even finished warrior. This game proceded to last 50 mins and i was behind for about 45 of it. please help item 3070 Amumu

20 Comments

vladerag6 votes

ward coverage. its all about the ward coverage. Shaco can stealth, but he isnt permastealthed like eve. If you get the river warded (with help from bot lane) you will see him coming in. At that point you can either let him take your jungle or ask your teamates to collapse on him.

On one level, i dont think a lee sin has a lot of options vs a shaco early without help. Part of jungling and counter jungling is knowing which champions can turn on shaco and eat his face off and not. if he is picking after you, you might just be out of luck and forced to step carefully in your own jungle.

ZeeWolfZ4 votes

Main Jungle here (Season 5, D4)(Currently P2)

LeeSinNidalee Shaco Kindred Nunu can be very difficult to deal with. They are early counter-junglers and can make your life a hell.

Generally, vs these chamipons, I will ALWAYS start from my buff because I know how much pressure these champions provide. If you are starting @Red, start with the Buff > to Wolves > to Blue, don't risk it and base. Once healed up, you can rush to top or mid for a quick gank.

Make your game easy: (easy to play)

  1. Vs LeeSin - Pick Sejuani. She beats Lee in damage, has an escape, and can make Lee's life a living hell.
  2. Vs Shaco - If Shako starts blue, Rush your red buff. If Shako starts Red, start your blue buff. I guarantee you a 110% he will run to the opposite buff (to his) and try to steal it. This way you prevent the steal and he'll waste about 30 seconds. Ask your teammates not to push over 50% of the lane, because Pink wards are expensive and he can fuckup the lane.
  3. Vs Nidalee - Just like Shakokovich, pick whoever, start with Buffs.
  4. Others, same story.

TAXING as a Jungler: (taxing - taking few minions or minion exp from the lane so you do not fall behind)

  • During a Gank - if YOU killed the enemy, do not take any minions from the lane, just run to your camp (or base accordingly).
  • During a Gank - if YOUR teammate killed the enemy, take 2 minion gold (mages or backline) and continue with your jungle path.
  • If you force a Flash - Take 1 minion gold (backline) and move on.
  • If you failed to force a flash/kill - Leave. You have nothing to gank from the lane. (If they spam you to backoff, just ignore them. Low Elo has no clue what Taxing is)

Resetting the lane:

  • Each wave has 6-7 minions
  • After a counter-gank, when your Lane has to Base - IF your lane has 6 minons, enemy's lane 5 (or less), you Clean the wave and push it to their Turret. The turret then will kill the remaining minions and prevent the laner to get the exp/gold.
  • If Enemy's lane is bigger, and your's is smaller, Sit in the lane and ONLY LAST HIT, turn off any aoe abilities, and just sit patiently and gain easy exp/gold. Try to keep the wave away from the Turret, Unless you know how to kill under the turret.

WARDING item 3711 Is an amazing Low-Elo upgrade. I sometimes use it in My Elo vs Nidalee/Lee.

Trinkets

  • If Lee w/ item 2049 chose item 3711 + item 3364
  • If regular Jungler: item 3363
  • If AD/burst heavy enemy team: item 3715
  • If you are confident in your abilities: item 3706
  • If you decided to Pick Sej: item 3711 or item 3715

SIDENOTE: item 3706 (stalker's) - For slows and additional damage item 3715 (skirmisher's) - VS bursty champs/High Dmgers

First BUY If you want to make your life easier, assuming you started item 1039 + item 2031 You initial Buys will be: item 1041, then item 1001, then item 2032, then item 2043.

After, just follow your building path.

Best of Luck!

Archangel Wolff1 votes

Im gonna have to memorize this becasue it seems like itll help me so much haha, Thank you!

PiVoRx1 votes

Nobody cares about nunu, and rest are general cancers with LeeSin Nidalee Kindred being top competitive picks since ages cause op as fuck.

ZeeWolfZ1 votes

True. Nunu is a joke. maybe 0.01% Master Nunu will come out and troll your jungle. Other than that, too weak to even worry about.

bxAmkd7pIF3 votes

I would suggest playing Shaco yourself to learn his strengths and weaknesses. That is usually the best way to learn how to fight him.

Archangel Wolff1 votes

i know how to play him, to me shacos kit does more dmg early than lees. with his crit on unstealth and cc

JRobin311 votes

If you don't know where Shaco is, place more and better wards. The fact that you didn't know Shaco had invaded and stolen your blue until after he ganked top lane is an example of poor warding.

You either should've known Shaco would invade without needing to place the ward or you should've placed the ward and saw him invade. If you really know how to play Shaco, then you should've known he would invade. And if you didn't know he would invade, then you don't really know how to play Shaco even if you think you do and in that case, you should've placed a better ward so that you would know.

Counter-jungling means spending extra time to walk into the enemy jungle. It may not seem like very much time, but that time is important. He is paying a price in the hopes of getting something that is worth more than the extra time he spends. You should be able to use that extra time to either get more farm, pull off a gank, stall him in your jungle, or at the very least go equal by counter-invading. There are no airtight strategies when it comes to jungling. You just have to be better than he is.

Archangel Wolff1 votes

I do know how to play shaco but personally ive never been a heavy counter jungler, this is my first season maining jungle also lol so i have alot to learn still xD

The Yetii Rider3 votes

If you think you're going to get invaded, start at your red buff (NOT Krugs). With your leash, take red and start your normal clear, making sure to ward the bush directly between red and the river (the one over the wall).

Red buff not only gives excellent damage, it gives extra health regen, giving you a heavy advantage against someone with only blue buff.

Additionally after 6.9, red buff will be buffed and blue buff will be nerfed. Red will apply a tick of true damage on-hit, giving AS junglers like Lee a boost. Blue buff will no longer give bonus AP unless you have AP already, meaning Shaco won't have it his first clear.

Happy ward hopping, summoner.

TallyZrg2 votes

Best thing to ask for is to have your laners to each buy 1 pink to cover all entrances to the jungle. Then when you see the enemy jungler invade you all converge on them and get an easy kill (mid + top + jng if the jungler was spotted top side jungle. bot + sup + mid + jng if the jungler was spotted in the bot side jungle).

Remember to ask nicely and not demand, you are more likely to get help this way.

I did this yesterday when my jungler friend was facing against an Eve, we had 2 pinks covering bot side jungle, and 2 covering top. When she invaded once we all pinged that we were going to kill her. When she died to the converge she never tried invading again.

QjTHqo3RTq2 votes

Level 5 shaco here, if I'm playing shaco, I guess where the enemy jungler is gonna go, place my first box at :40 and then from there I go to confirm if i was right or if I'm just better off taking his buff and camps, or if i can get the buff and a kill. If I know the enemy jungler is going to be at the buff across from me, I'll save smite to steal their buff, since most of the time, junglers use their smite on gromp or krugs. If you're not there, I steal the buff and a camp for level 3, and mosey on down to my jungle.

As for shaco calling you bad, that's tilt fodder there, shaco does it at any chance he feels like he can get, tilting is basically what shaco does. As for fighting a shaco, the key is to landing your q as lee, you can outplay a shaco by eing his stealth to reveal him, but you 100% have to land your q because shaco can box it and that's a very good sign to run right away. Also keep in mind, Shaco will deal a lot of damage early, like persay, half your health bar, but after that, he wont do much unless you stay around for his cds. His Q and W have 10+ cooldowns and he can only q a couple times before becoming too low on mana to fight.

tl;dr remember shaco is one of the best earlies out there, and is a skill match up for lee.

Jaygo411 votes

if you think they're going to invade you, clear 1 half of your jg as your starting clear then base and buy a pink. do your next buff and watch the pink carefully

GamblerOfLives1 votes

Your example is simple..shaco is an early game champ, so he has pressure jsut bcs he is shaco..Lee counters shaco;).If he is in your jungle trying to get to you, well, it's a good thing..he wants to fck with you->which means that he gives up pressure jsut to fck with you..This is a win for you;)..you outscale so, it's good;). Always have a pink at you;)..maybe you get lucky and spot him;). Never be low in your jungle;)..Doesn;t mater who you are against;)..you need to stay healthy;)...good junglers will take advantage of this;). I won;t recomend to fight him early bcs, he has ignite, and he has some burst;)..but, if you play it properly you should win the fight;)..if you are good a lee sin;).Also, don;t ping your team to chase him..you won't catch him and you just fcked another lane-he left his own lane,wasted time, to help you

Also, vs counters, the ebst thing you can do, is to try to avoid them early on;)..

Baunjo1 votes

it all comes down to communication with your team. Whenever I am against a champion that invades and just generally does better than the champion I play, I ask usually my mid to push up and be ready to rotate when I get invaded. Usually that all comes down to how the initial invade goes, if you can turn it in your favor they cannot invade you again.

So basically communicate with your team, stop the counter jungling before it gets too far, and I usually smite my wolves and keep a pink in the bush above my red as a safe bet of always knowing where they are. Making sure there is a pink in bottom tri bush is also important.

Nymeara1 votes

How I deal with shaco specifically is I change up my jungle path for example I'll start red and I'll ward as much as possible, I'll expect him at my other buff and just be ready instead of mindless jungle farming

Astôlfo1 votes

Outside of his first jungle clear with box-stacking, he has a relatively slow clear in early. He will most likely start with either Krugs (Blue side) or Gromp (Red side) for the level 2, although he might start with a buff depending. After that, he'll almost certainly try to invade immediately towards whatever buff is directly opposite (Your red, if he's blue side/Your blue if he started red side). So one of the first things you can do is just start buffs instead, and then wait for him to come over. He'll most likely stealth (with his Q) around the midway point (where river changes into your side jungle on blue side), or just blink into the red pit with his Q. Personally, I'd just wait a few seconds after that, because then he'll either be forced to hide in a bush, back, or initiate.

As for pink wards, sure, they cost 75 gold. That's still a whole lot less than 300 (for a kill) or 150 (for an assist) though. What's more worth? Also, the very fact he had to destroy the pink means you know where he was.

However, with Shaco's blink, if they're an experienced player, they'll most likely jump walls and etcetera to try and avoid wards in obvious places (bushes, intersections, etc). So try thinking about it from their perspective and place wards where it'd be harder for them to jump over or evade them.

As for your laners, tell them to not push more than halfway unless they can easily return back to said tower without trouble. Shaco early cheese can definitely apply here. And if they're less than 50% max health, tell them to stick under tower/hug tower and farm safely unless they have direct vision of possible areas where Shaco could come from.

On that note, ward deeper than usual. Another thing you could do is, instead of taking the crab, place a normal yellow ward around center area of the river so you can see them trying to take it. Warding within the actual jungle monster pits is also another option (which also works for Evelynn, on that note).

Shaco relies a lot on kills in early to get anywhere, and without that, he falls off hard. However, he's still quite good at splitpushing thanks to his clone and escapes, so be wary about that. Another thing is, don't chase Shaco because you almost certainly will not catch him, between wall blinks, his box traps, and him turning the situation around into a trap to catch you instead.

Droogzy1 votes

I think another important aspect to remember when you're getting counterjungled is that the opposing jungler must spend the extra time moving through your jungle and checking to see if camps are not cleared and looking for you, this means they are wasting time and it is critical for them to kill you in particular. If you see them coming from afar, if you have to give up the camp, do it. They are already wasting a vast amount of time moving through your jungle that having a compensation prize of a half cleared camp is going to set them behind just as bad as it sets you behind.

Vicarious1171 votes

There are a couple ways to deal with counter junglers, and it depends on what kind of counter jungling they're doing.

For example let's start with your scenario, someone like a Shaco who will invade you in order to kill you. What you want to do is get as much ward coverage as possible and smite the wolf camp nearly every single time you can, so you can see when he comes into that area. Once you see where he is focus on another part of the map, say he invades on your bot side jungle, you then want to either go gank top to get your lanes ahead or invade/farm your top side jungle. You don't want to try and collapse on a lot of these kinds of junglers, Shaco and Nidalee types who just want to kill you, because they will often just escape over walls and shit as soon as they see you coming and then everyone who went to collapse is then behind their respective match ups.

So tl;dr, keep up decent vision and stay on opposing side of the map to either gank or farm.

The other kind of counterjungler is the one who just wants to deny you farm, say a Nunu or a Shyvanna for examples. You don't need as much vision for this situation, what you want to do really is be aggressive as fuck, gank heavily to force them out of "farm-mode" to help their team out and if they don't then you can easily win the game through early game pressure. And if your lanes are winning or just not really gankable then you invade them! Grab as much of their farm as you can and ward their side of the jungle to track their movements and try to kill them, if you can ofc. In both cases they will be forced out of your jungle to respond to your actions, otherwise they will be in for a tough climb back into the game if you do your job right.

Archangel Wolff1 votes

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