Kog'Maw isn't weak because he's undertuned

Tentakill Myself·Nov 17, 2015·175 votes·7,547 views

He's weak because games end too fast and he can't get enough items to do shit.

122 Comments

Troy242621Nov 17, 201539 votes

He also requires a teamcomp built around him to reach maximum efficiency, and even then it requires precise coordination to keep him alive to do what Koggies do.

Blue KaoziNov 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

He also requires a teamcomp built around him to reach maximum efficiency, and even then it requires precise coordination to keep him alive to do what Koggies do.

Pretty much this, Kog needs a lot of peel and a team devoted to him to function. Most games I've played lately have all had everyone picking selfish picks to do as much damage as possible. Games are more chaotic than they have been in awhile, leading to kog performing poorly. That said, the buffs they have planned for him dont seem too over the top.

Karn BishopNov 17, 20153 votes

which are tanks, which currently cannot clear jungle and also cannot survive top which basically eliminates any kog comps.

NemeBroNov 17, 201524 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-11-17T21:16:38.324+0000)

which are tanks, which currently cannot clear jungle and also cannot survive top which basically eliminates any kog comps.

Rammus TahmKench Malphite Shen Amumu Nautilus Sion

All tanks with high win rates top or jungle (and some good in support as well).

BioticBronyNov 18, 20155 votes

What about me gems Taric ! He is great in top lane! Especially when facing an ad top.

SEKAINov 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All tanks with high win rates top or jungle (and some good in support as well).

Shen and Sion are not strictly tanks, they're just really tanky bruisers (Tahm is like the best of both worlds so idk about him).

peachplumpearNov 18, 20155 votes

I don't know what you define as a tank but Shen is definitely a tank.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shen/Top

The only item that isn't pure tank he builds is a Sterak's Gauge.

SEKAINov 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Peach Plum Pair,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=00020002000000030000,timestamp=2015-11-18T14:24:50.887+0000)

I don't know what you define as a tank but Shen is definitely a tank.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shen/Top

The only item that isn't pure tank he builds is a Sterak's Gauge.

Because he has only 1 CC that is extremely taxing on himself, and is fundamentally unreliable.

Everything else he has outside of the ultimate and E is geared towards dueling and sustain alone. His ulti is a great arse saving tool, a teamfight set up, global navigation and generally a global/teamfight presence; however it does not feature any team interruption by itself.

A tank is defined by their innate sustain and their ability to either constantly or less frequently but greatly interrupt enemy formations in a reliable manner. Shen does not fully qualify that hence he is not a tank by default, but just a really tanky bruiser.

peachplumpearNov 18, 20152 votes

Because he has only 1 CC that is extremely taxing on himself, and is fundamentally unreliable.

And?

Everything else he has outside of the ultimate and E is geared towards dueling and sustain alone.

If all he had were CC abilities that didn't do any damage or sustain himself then how would he go anywhere except bot lane?

A tank is defined by their sustain and their ability to either constantly or less frequently but greatly interrupt enemy formations in a reliable manner. Shen does not qualify that hence he is not a tank by default, but just a really tanky bruiser.

.........? You JUST said his kit is geared towards sustain. His E is on an 8 second CD and taunts for 1.5 seconds.

Is Malphite not a tank anymore? I mean outside of his one-use ultimate he's not going to disrupt your enemy team's formation and he has no natural sustain. Is his Q disruption? I mean Shen could build a Frozen Mallet and then he'd be a tank if that's the case, right?

You also said Sion isn't a tank and yet he has just as much "sustain" as Malphite but can more frequently disrupt the enemy team because he can initiate with his ultimate and keep CCing with his Q and E.

SEKAINov 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Peach Plum Pair,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=0002000200000003000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-18T14:46:37.199+0000)

And?

If all he had were CC abilities that didn't do any damage or sustain himself then how would he go anywhere except bot lane?

.........? You JUST said his kit is geared towards sustain. His E is on an 8 second CD and taunts for 1.5 seconds.

The key is that it's unreliable as a short ranged skill shot. And that fact that it's his only source of CC, on a rather large CD until a couple of levels in, and with a large cost.

Is Malphite not a tank anymore? I mean outside of his one-use ultimate he's not going to disrupt your enemy team's formation and he has no natural sustain. Is his Q disruption? I mean Shen could build a Frozen Mallet and then he'd be a tank if that's the case, right?

By that logic anyone who builds any item that gives CC is qualified as a tank? Or any person who builds damage is an assassin, fighter, carry or mage? Of course we're talking about champ categorisation by kit design, and disregarding builds here.

The difference between Malph and Shen is that, the former has 3 spells made to affect individual and large crowd in more or less reliable fashion, while the latter only has 1 (and not reliable at it too). Hence Malph is a tank, Shen is a bruiser.

I guess it would be easier if I just give you some examples:

Tanks:

Alistar
Nautilus
Leona
Malphite
Sejuani

Bruisers:

Shen
Renekton
Nasus
Mundo
Olaf

The people who're kinda both:

Hecarim
Maokai
Sion (even though I put him here, he is still technically a bruiser, due to his CCs are all unreliable. However he has way too many of them to stay a bruiser so it's really a tough choice, so I put him here)

peachplumpearNov 18, 20152 votes

You just don't have any sort of consistency to what you define as a tank. Shen isn't a tank because his CC is unreliable, and yet Malphite is a tank even though his ultimate is on a MUCH longer cooldown and can still be dodged and he only has one useful AoE outside of it (E).

Meanwhile Sion has his ultimate and his Q and his W and his E to disrupt fights but you don't consider him a real tank, Nunu has exactly one AoE (is he a tank or is he not OooOoOOOOOOoo). Shyvana tank or not? CC with her ultimate that's just like a Malphite ult and she has better AoE cleave afterwards! She's more like Shen than Malphite. Is Udyr a tank? I mean he has technically infinite CC on his E and large AoE damage on R. Jarvan IV; tank or bruiser? Does a lot of damage but half his kit is CC. Taric? Only has one CC in his kit and the rest is devoted to supporting. Blitzcrank? He has 3 different CCs and can keep being annoying since his E is on a super low cooldown. Darius? He has two CCs in his kit. Aatrox? 2 CCs in his kit but he's geared for dealing damage. Skarner? His update was for "Juggernauts" but E and R are CCs and W is self-durability, though he also does happen to deal pretty ok damage. Gnar, tank or not? Garen? His Q is pretty annoying and on a low cooldown.

I mean, what does the adjective "Tanky" even mean in your mind? What does "tanking" mean to you?

In most traditional senses, a tank is someone who is durable and can initiate on fights and keep focus on themselves, usually by having annoying CC. Which makes Shen and Sion and Maokai definite tanks. Just because Shen can also 1v1 people sometimes doesn't mean he's not a tank. He's durable and can stay in the thick of a fight, but he doesn't do enough damage to kill multiple people consistently (such as Darius does). He can put out an annoying AoE taunt every 8 seconds. How is he not a tank?

peachplumpearNov 18, 20152 votes

Where is our overlord Dr. Mundo who has the highest winrate of all champions and is also 11th highest winrate of all champs as a top laner?

LeeDarkNov 17, 20152 votes

Not really. Since the arrival of Tahm Kench, he is all Kog needs for safety. Before, it took two or three people buffing and shield and peeling for him to manage. Tahm does all of that all by himself.

RebonackNov 17, 201536 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nami Used Surf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-17T16:32:14.440+0000)

He's weak because games end too fast and he can't get enough items to do shit.

He still only has ~50% win rate in extreme late game at the Plat+ level. His everything other than late game is so weak that even if he ever reaches late he's typically going to be gimped since he was free food all game.

Vayne is a 'hyper carry' too, but she's still amazing at every stage of the game.

Dominick DestineNov 17, 201522 votes

{quoted} Vayne is a 'hyper carry' too, but she's still amazing at every stage of the game.

That is more of a consequence of Vayne being overpowered than anything else.

SkiasNov 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He still only has ~50% win rate in extreme late game at the Plat+ level. His everything other than late game is so weak that even if he ever reaches late he's typically going to be gimped since he was free food all game.

Vayne is a 'hyper carry' too, but she's still amazing at every stage of the game.

I've given up on them making vayne actually weak early game. It's never going to happen.

VerxintNov 18, 20154 votes

what they mean by "vayne is weak early game" is "vayne can't fight 1v2 early game".

if you play vs here in a solo lane it doesn't feel at all like a weak early game champ.

My Waifu VanillaNov 18, 20152 votes

That's because when you are Top Vayne it is 8 times out of 10 a ranged vs melee comp which are usually very easy ESPECIALLY when you have mobility and a knockback in your kit.

VerxintNov 18, 20153 votes

The knockback isnt the deal, its taking a silver bolts proc for even thinking about csing. if you engage, she can kite into her minions, then chase you after you leave.

you basically have to all-in her level 1. if it fails, you lose even harder.

My Waifu VanillaNov 18, 20152 votes

That was implied. What I listed were reasons why you basically have to bend over and let her give it to you since you really can't fight back outside of an early jungle gank which are more scarce this season due to earlier recalls required for most junglers.

SpecterVonBarenNov 17, 201519 votes

Give his W a base value again, BAM, fixed.

RebonackNov 17, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Give his W a base value again, BAM fixed.b

Yep.

This right here would pretty much do it.

Right now Koggy's W has three multiplicative sources of scaling. Raw AD amplification (110% at the moment). AD to %HP conversion (effectively 2.5% per 100). And of course the doubling of OnHit power.

If one of those were changed into base damage that doesn't scale (preferably the %HP portion) then that would give Riot better balance levers to adjust. Is Kog too weak early/mid? Improve the base damage. Is Kog too strong late? Adjust the AD amplification and/or the attack speed boost. Easy peasy.

SpecterVonBarenNov 17, 20152 votes

Also, why the hell is it so freaking hard to find out what Kog's base damage was before 5.22?! I've looked for any kind of site that just says what it did and no one has anything on it.

ZadicNov 18, 20152 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kog%27Maw?diff=2318769&oldid=2316776 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6% (+ 1% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health

between the big white "Kog maw" and his profile pic>view source>history

My Waifu VanillaNov 18, 20152 votes

Or make the AD Scaling on W a total ratio that way it has....something early on. I don't feel like adding a base would be worth it since it would look something like 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 or 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5 which is sona E levels of not worth it of putting points into it since you will literally not see a difference from rank 1-5 because on a 1.2k health champ or whatever at level 9 that is a whopping 24 extra on hit damage which feels very small for a rank 5 ability (yeah it has double AS but it has that at rank 1 as well).

DJ Di0Nov 17, 20159 votes

-Give BioArcane Barrage base damage (not huge but just something). -Revert the duration nerf of his Living Artillery debuff; ten seconds is simply too long.

RebonackNov 17, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-11-17T18:39:53.784+0000)

-Give BioArcane Barrage base damage (not huge but just something). -Revert the duration nerf of his Living Artillery debuff; ten seconds is simply too long.

I question the need to even have the scaling mana cost at this point.

It isn't very useful as a poke tool. Just bump its base mana cost up to 60 and call it good.

SpongebobIsLifeNov 17, 20155 votes

bc if It didn't have one, ap kog maw would be absolutely broken

RebonackNov 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

bc if It didn't have one, ap kog maw would be absolutely broken

Kog's Ult has a .25 AP ratio and shit for base damage now. It would be no more broken than Ziggs or Xerath's Q.

TotalJerkNov 17, 201510 votes

It also scales with missing enemy HP and can repeatedly apply 40% slows if you buy Rylai's

My Waifu VanillaNov 18, 20153 votes

It hits like a wet paper towel on a target at full health which is typically who you are trying to poke down. The ability will do a lot of damage regardless if they are in the execute range which will require the rest of your team getting them there if you are AP Kog since you simply do not do enough damage to get them there on your own anymore since the AP Ratio on W is garbage (for how much AS your aren't buying outside maybe a nashors) and Q+E doesn't really cut it after level 12. It has a 0.25 ratio at anyone above 50% health and a 110 base at rank 2 which is when poke is typically the best (mid game). With 300 AP it would take 6+ shots to get someone with 1200 health down to half to get the double damage (2 more for the triple and then probably 1 for the kill). That is 9 shots which would be 540 mana with the proposed 60 mana per shot, assuming you hit them all, AND assuming you do true damage to them. Kog'maw only has like 800 base mana around mid game and would probably have a 2/3 charged tear or so at this time so that is still almost half your mana just trying to kill one person if you hit all the shots over almost 10 seconds.

Removing the scaling wouldn't break him since he still couldn't spam it since he still needs to use Q/W/E which is 220 mana total and the damage is just really mediocre. Like he will be a lot better at cleaning up fights compared to old AP Kog but why would I pick him for that when I can pick from a lot of other champions that clean up much better?

ImNotTicklshNov 17, 20158 votes

I disagree. I think while yes, he is a later game carry, after playing him a couple times and having my support line up kills for me, I was completely unable to dish out the needed damage.. Even with the enemy in chain CC and hitting every ability plus aa's.. Pre and post level 6.

He needs to still be able to kill something if the enemy completely screws up, or you get a successful gank, but right now when W is active he feels absolutely worthless until the enemy team is already knocking at your teams front door. I thought I was playing him wrong at first, then I realized he starts to deal a bit of damage with BoTRK, but it didn't feel like I had any chance up until after I had that, and boots, to secure a kill.. You should be able to secure kills to help speed up item breakpoints but I have honestly never played a champ I felt was that weak before getting an item.

SpoofghoulNov 17, 20157 votes

lvl 6 isn't late game tho

ImNotTicklshNov 18, 20152 votes

I apologize if my post is a bit scattered, I didn't mean to sound like I think lvl 6 is late game. The point I was attempting to make is that albeit he can become powerful in the late game, up to that point, you really feel gimped. And I know you should, but to a degree , right now you feel like you are completely worthless. And it just feels like its a way too much of a risk taking kog over someone else, why go for the champ that only works late game, and thats if you are able to freely farm up to that point, when there are far safer picks currently?

The LovelessNov 17, 20156 votes

The 5.0 attack speed gimmick hinders him since there's no way you'll amass decent attack speed AND the damage to make up for that 60% loss.

blkKalameetNov 17, 20152 votes

On average its actually an overall damage buff of about 10%. Each hit deals less damage, but you get a lot more hits. That's why an on hit effect build is the best option right now as it becomes more powerful.

RebonackNov 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

On average its actually an overall damage buff of about 10%. Each hit deals less damage, but you get a lot more hits. That's why an on hit effect build is the best option right now as it becomes more powerful.

His W converts every 100 AD he has into 1.25% Max HP damage. It figures out to something like a 40-60% DPS increase on raw AD vs a 100% increase on OnHit.

That's why you want items that give both.

The LovelessNov 18, 20151 votes

Sounds cool but you also have to consider how difficult it is to orb walk and get as many autos off as possible.

blkKalameetNov 18, 20151 votes

This is why he requires a team comp set up to take advantage of him mmost effectively.

The problem with team comps like that is if you punish kog early with a lot of pressure then he is completely useless and the team comp falls apart.

BluePolarizerNov 18, 20151 votes

problem is, old Kog could still hypercarry and be able to kite. There is literally no new aspect of play to Kog. Before, he was relatively team independent and could duel most other ADCs once he had a Triforce. Now he can't.

blkKalameetNov 18, 20152 votes

I agree that this I a major problem. A champion should not be so dependent on his team for him to do well on his own.

I understand wanting to encourage this being a team game, but you should be able to do something on your own.

My Waifu VanillaNov 18, 20152 votes

item 3070 Soraka Mordekaiser

Auz the RipperNov 18, 20152 votes

if you build him like kayle, nothing but on-hits like item 3091 , item 3115 , and item 3124 , you'll be able to duel anything that doesn't have the CC to stop you

MimyNov 17, 20155 votes

Pretty much, he is a late game hyper carry and with all the games ending mid game.. he can't reach his potential in the late game.

ScoroctNov 17, 20154 votes

at the moment kog is rather meh, but you can become worse than jax if you rush rageblade and hurricane on maw. mainly this is cause rageblade itself is broken, but kogmaw abuses it very well and literally can just all in the enemy bot lane once he buys it. they can't walk up to cs for fear of the rageblade w autos

FrutzNov 17, 20153 votes

He's also weak because keep building him like before the rework with Triforce. People need to realise on hit damage is really strong on him :/. The most frequent build on plat+ according to champion.gg is still with only BORK for on hit damage...

RebonackNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=AscL Frutz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UouHVHtB,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-11-17T22:08:15.437+0000)

He's also weak because keep building him like before the rework with Triforce. People need to realise on hit damage is really strong on him :/. The most frequent build on plat+ according to champion.gg is still with only BORK for on hit damage...

Given how his W and R scale, Koggy is most effective with AD and OnHit effects.

Items that provide both AD and OnHit effects are ideal. He really doesn't need Crit at all.

Yuumi the MouserNov 18, 20152 votes

Are people not rushing Rageblade on Kog'maw?

Kog'maw is a nightmare the moment he gets that Rageblade, unless you have a shit ton of burst, or hard CC, he's going to kill you very rapidly.

It's also significantly cheaper than any other item, and synergizes very well with his entire kit.

Only Play DariusNov 18, 20151 votes

Funny Nasus should be weak for the same exact reason, and I DO feel useless playing him. Yet his winrate spiked from 49% to 52% after this patch. http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus