Zoe is pretty much old Nidalee.

Hayaishi·Jul 9, 2018·12 votes·4,045 views

Except Zoe's kit is 10 times more overloaded. Old Nidalee played her own game because nobody could interact with her, everything was always on her terms, involves zero risk massive reward because all they both do is shoot stuff from fog of war that you can't even afford to get hit by once because you either get chunked by 80% of your HP or you get CC'd until judgement day (in Zoe's case)

How did this champion make it out of internal testing? Did you not see the similarities between them? I'm not even gonna mention the other abominations Zoe has on her kit because i'm sure everyone already knows how BS this champion is.

34 Comments

CoffeeCKDDJul 9, 20182 votes

Zoe is pretty easy to play around. Just dodge skill shots. My only problem with her is that her passive empowered auto attack’s are kinda a ‘get out of jail free card’ with damage when she misses all her abilities.

TrikzterzArmaJul 9, 20185 votes

I'm so tired of that comment. "Just dodge the skillshots" Well fuck me, I guess Ezreal isn't/wasn't busted then. I mean, just avoid his skillshots

CoffeeCKDDJul 9, 20182 votes

It’s true. If you can sidestep them, then you completely make their champion null. Just yet good at dodging / sidestepping and you’re gonna see major improvement in win rates. ( Not to mention, Ezreal isn’t really busted at all lmao 47% win rate )

Malix FarwinJul 10, 20181 votes

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I'm so tired of that comment. "Just dodge the skillshots" Well fuck me, I guess Ezreal isn't/wasn't busted then. I mean, just avoid his skillshots

Difference is ezreal's skillshots aren't blocked by creep. I mean i out duel her as annie, the most immobile mage in the game.

DanjengJul 9, 20181 votes

Old Nid is pretty easy to play around. Just dodge skill shots.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20182 votes

comparing zoe to old nid. lmao You have NO idea how broken was old nid.

Jaygo41Jul 10, 20182 votes

No I remember. The gameplay is markedly similar despite being longer in cooldown. But the pickup summoner spells almost more than makes up for it. Nidalee was at least predictable in where she would jump... Zoe MAY OR MAY NOT just bop you with a redemption or a hextech gunblade

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No I remember. The gameplay is markedly similar despite being longer in cooldown. But the pickup summoner spells almost more than makes up for it. Nidalee was at least predictable in where she would jump... Zoe MAY OR MAY NOT just bop you with a redemption or a hextech gunblade

Zoe does not scale over walls every second and run around in circles with hypermobility nor can invade your jungler to impunity, nor can go ad tank.

"gameplay is markedly similar" while saying she relies on pickup summoner spells which is situational compared to nidalees unconditional non-resource mobility.

Basically you are saying you are scared of zoe because she MIGHT to do it, while old nidalee can do it as she PLEASES so you are not scared. what is this flawed logic.

Jaygo41Jul 10, 20185 votes

The idea of nuclear-tipped spammable projectiles from the fog of war is the key aspect that we're focusing on in the whole discussion. That's exactly what both are bad for

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20182 votes

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The idea of nuclear-tipped spammable projectiles from the fog of war is the key aspect that we're focusing on in the whole discussion. That's exactly what both are bad for

And why is it bad. There is a sole whole mage class that does it. Nidalee was nerfed to the ground because of her unrelenting chasing abilities that puts T-800 to shame in the jungle. NOT because she had a strong projectile.The spear was just the icing of the cake.

NyarlathοtepJul 10, 20181 votes

Dont compare artillery mages with the abomination known as zoe. Artillery mages have less utility than zoe (although it depends on rng, which is also why rng is unhealthy) and less burst. Artillery mage also have spells that are difficult to land. Have you ever tried to hit a ziggs q on a target that is not slowed or cced? Pro tip, it feels awful. And while this is true to an extent for zoe too, her motherfking e bypasses this weakness. Because for some GOD FKING reason it extends when it passes through walls. Oh also, true damage.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dont compare artillery mages with the abomination known as zoe. Artillery mages have less utility than zoe (although it depends on rng, which is also why rng is unhealthy) and less burst. Artillery mage also have spells that are difficult to land. Have you ever tried to hit a ziggs q on a target that is not slowed or cced? Pro tip, it feels awful. And while this is true to an extent for zoe too, her motherfking e bypasses this weakness. Because for some GOD FKING reason it extends when it passes through walls.** Oh also, true damage**.

All of the facts you have wrote are contradictory. Since I mained artillery and played Velkoz for 4 whole seasons, those parts you feel "unfair" as zoe applies 100% to Vel as well.

Superb utility. extremely powerful burst, easy to land skillshot that can be controlled, and MORE true damage than zoe. Please at least try to be fair in critisism.

NyarlathοtepJul 10, 2018

Oh you are implying that vel's q slow (70%) and aoe knock up (0.75 sec) are stronger than zoe's whole w (which can become every active item and/or every sum spell with no cd and ofc, her e which slows and then puts you to sleep. Im mean, yeah you are right, vel'z utility (or in his case cc) is more reliable. But zoe has far stronger utility and cc.

those parts you feel "unfair" as zoe applies 100% to Vel as well.

Not really. Vel cant pick up summs and item actives. And vel's cc is telegraphed as fk. Besides even then, zoe still has her ulti, which is (in my opinion) the 2nd most annoying feature in her kit (first being her e and w).

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh you are implying that vel's q slow (70%) and aoe knock up (0.75 sec) are stronger than zoe's whole w (which can become every active item and/or every sum spell with no cd and ofc, her e which slows and then puts you to sleep. Im mean, yeah you are right, vel'z utility (or in his case cc) is more reliable. But zoe has far stronger utility and cc.

Not really. Vel cant pick up summs and item actives. And vel's cc is telegraphed as fk. Besides even then, zoe still has her ulti, which is (in my opinion) the 2nd most annoying feature in her kit (first being her e and w).

Ok now you are comparing the functionalities of 2 totally different champions. Do you wanna compare Kog'maw with lee sin now? This has just devolved into a straw man argument.

NyarlathοtepJul 10, 2018

I just stated that zoe has more utility than vel. And you tried to correct me (with no arguments tho). And both zoe and vel are pretty closely related. Both have medium to high range, both have high burst, both have true scaling damage. Both are mages.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I just stated that zoe has more utility than vel. And you tried to correct me (with no arguments tho). And both zoe and vel are pretty closely related. Both have medium to high range, both have high burst, both have true scaling damage. Both are mages.

Vel definitely has more powerful utility than zoe, kiting, firepower. He can be played as a support freely like brand while Zoe obviously can't since she needs scaling and less reliable cc. Zoe excells at repositioning and chasing while sacrificing brute force. This was a needed feature in the mage roster 90% of them cannot reposition or stop while casting spells and do jack shit in this meta by being blown up by a wukong.

NyarlathοtepJul 10, 2018

No he doesnt. Quoting from my previous comment, " vel's q slow (70%) and aoe knock up (0.75 sec) are stronger than zoe's whole w (which can become every active item and/or every sum spell with no cd and ofc, her e which slows and then puts you to sleep ".

Vel indeed has more kiting and sometimes more firepower ( he has to stand still to channel his ulti in order to deal the max possible damage which currently is dangerous/difficult).

Vel can go supp because he has decent base damage, cc and reliable poke. And lastly no, zoe doesnt sacrifice raw damage for her slipperiness.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No he doesnt. Quoting from my previous comment, " vel's q slow (70%) and aoe knock up (0.75 sec) are stronger than zoe's whole w (which can become every active item and/or every sum spell with no cd and ofc, her e which slows and then puts you to sleep ".

Vel indeed has more kiting and sometimes more firepower ( he has to stand still to channel his ulti in order to deal the max possible damage which currently is dangerous/difficult).

Vel can go supp because he has decent base damage, cc and reliable poke. And lastly no, zoe doesnt sacrifice raw damage for her slipperiness.

" vel's q slow (70%) and aoe knock up (0.75 sec) are stronger than zoe's whole w (which can become every active item and/or every sum spell with no cd and ofc, her e which slows and then puts you to sleep ".

If vel's knockup or Q connects it would be a full channel true damage ult. Doesn't sound similar at all? Well, in vel's case its unblockable since its AOE. Don't try to wriggle out of this. It is a fact.

NyarlathοtepJul 10, 2018

If vel's knockup or Q connects it would be a full channel true damage ult.

??? You can still be interrupted. The knock up has a duration of 0.75.

Well, in vel's case its unblockable since its AOE. Don't try to wriggle out of this. It is a fact.

I never said it can be body blocked. But because it cant be blocked its slow as fk. And the effect radius is relatively small. Though, not sure how is that related with my previous comment.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

??? You can still be interrupted. The knock up has a duration of 0.75.

I never said it can be body blocked. But because it cant be blocked its slow as fk. And the effect radius is relatively small. Though, not sure how is that related with my previous comment.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to debate aside that you hate Zoe to a near singular vision to the subject... You are just constantly trying to derail it.

BernJul 9, 20181 votes

At least someone can block the paddle star for you after you take the bubble. If Zoe were really the equivalent of old Nid, taking the bubble alone would force you to base.

They're definitely very similar, but it's a two-step process instead of a one-step process, at least.

HayaishiJul 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

At least someone can block the paddle star for you after you take the bubble. If Zoe were really the equivalent of old Nid, taking the bubble alone would force you to base.

They're definitely very similar, but it's a two-step process instead of a one-step process, at least.

I mean if you take into consideration the other aspects of her kit she's even worse. All Nidalee had over her is mobility

BernJul 9, 20182 votes

AP Nidalee's heal also made her a one-champion siege engine.

Zoe overall has a stronger kit by far (e.g., her laning is lightyears better than AP Nidalee's ever was), I agree; but if it's about siege and poke alone, I think old Nid wins no contest.

Malix FarwinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean if you take into consideration the other aspects of her kit she's even worse. All Nidalee had over her is mobility

Yea she didnt have a self heal at all or traps for vision before either. Did i mention i can catch a Zoe, i couldn't touch old nidalee who not only was much more mobile but also built item 3065 so was a bit tanky and heal a ton if i somehow manage to dent her.

Oh her dmg? She didnt have to combo you or CC you. i don't have the option to buy item 3111 and make it harder for her to setup her burst because her spear was all she needed.

Do i need to even mention her spears had 0 ramp up compared to not only Zoe's E having a ramp up but Q(pretty much have to double cast this to get the full dmg) as well.

Zoe just seems stronger then she actually is because her mid game is her strongest time and games are ending around mid game. Her laning is nothing special and by late game you should have people with enough HP and MR to body block her Qs.

I mean you had a Zoe on your team go 7/14. Old nidalee would of died maybe 2 times if you were lucky.

HayaishiJul 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UnO1bjEZ,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-07-10T03:48:40.314+0000)

Yea she didnt have a self heal at all or traps for vision before either.

Nothing compared to using your own summoner spells against you.

aaaustindestroy1Jul 10, 20181 votes

Really? Because my teammate got bubbled and I blocked the paddle for them and we BOTH took the chunk

BernJul 10, 20181 votes

he stood too close = /

it does damage in a small aoe

AloretecJul 9, 20181 votes

You know when Irelia was first released they said overloaded her kit. Giving her cc, mobility, cc reduction, an execute, and self healing. Then they released Lee sin with everything except cc reduction but more mobility(at the time when wards were less rare).

Riot doesn't learn from their mistakes.

Malix FarwinJul 10, 20181 votes

Upon further review i am pretty sure you are just fishing for upvotes. you had a total of 3 games out of 60 with zoe in it. 1 was fter this post was made, she went 7/14 and was on your team(i can do better with champions that are not considered meta), second one she was 2/0/2 on your team(she didn't do much of anything), third she was 5/9(first game she was against and your team won).

{quoted}

Nothing compared to using your own summoner spells against you.

You have went against her 1 time in over 60 games, you are just talking out your behind.

Also your summoner spells drop behind you not in front of you. If you are only using your summons to engage then she is nothing and if she tries to run to your summons you has to run through you to get to them. Her health bar also shows you what summons she has/ if she has any at all giving you a choice to all in or not.

If a minion has a summon on it you know she wants it and can take the chance to zone her/ punish her for trying to get it. If you have merc threads it significantly lowers the duration of her sleep to the point where she can never get a full EQ combo and will have to settle for a quick cast q instead which does significantly less dmg.

She cannot build a Void Staff for quite a while seeing that her core items are expensive meaning early MR is huge against especially since her biggest power is during her mid game where she isn't building a void staff.(you literally had a 45m game and she still didnt finish a void staff.)

She also in all your games did low tier dmg overall i mean even your last one your vlad and jhin stomped her in that area.

You match history is pretty much barren when it comes to seeing her and in the games you do get her she is performing mediocre at best. This leads me to believe you are just fishing for upvotes.

HayaishiJul 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UnO1bjEZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-10T04:05:59.058+0000)

Upon further review i am pretty sure you are just fishing for upvotes. you had a total of 3 games out of 60 with zoe in it. 1 was fter this post was made, she went 7/14 and was on your team(i can do better with champions that are not considered meta), second one she was 2/0/2 on your team(she didn't do much of anything), third she was 5/9(first game she was against and your team won).

You have went against her 1 time in over 60 games, you are just talking out your behind.

Also your summoner spells drop behind you not in front of you. If you are only using your summons to engage then she is nothing and if she tries to run to your summons you has to run through you to get to them. Her health bar also shows you what summons she has/ if she has any at all giving you a choice to all in or not.

If a minion has a summon on it you know she wants it and can take the chance to zone her/ punish her for trying to get it. If you have merc threads it significantly lowers the duration of her sleep to the point where she can never get a full EQ combo and will have to settle for a quick cast q instead which does significantly less dmg.

She cannot build a Void Staff for quite a while seeing that her core items are expensive meaning early MR is huge against especially since her biggest power is during her mid game where she isn't building a void staff.(you literally had a 45m game and she still didnt finish a void staff.)

Clearly players dont have different accounts.

Don't have to take it personal Zoe main. The champion you like is BS and badly designed. It happens.

Malix FarwinJul 10, 20181 votes

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Clearly players dont have different accounts.

Don't have to take it personal Zoe main. The champion you like is BS and badly designed. It happens.

Alright show me some statistic that is showing she is strong. Anything, overall dmg, performance, WRs. Anything other than circle jerking. Show me you have an actual argument. In fact link me your account where you are play against her more then 1 time out of 60 games.

HayaishiJul 10, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UnO1bjEZ,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-07-10T04:22:16.101+0000)

Alright so me some statistic that is showing she is strong. Anything, overall dmg, performance, WRs. Anything other than circle jerking.

Champions don't need to be "strong" to be considered toxic.

Just like how everyone bitches about Yasuo for years despite him almost always being a weak pick.

Malix FarwinJul 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Champions don't need to be "strong" to be considered toxic.

Just like how everyone bitches about Yasuo for years despite him almost always being a weak pick.

Here we go. Thank you for proving my point your original post just directly contradicted this statement, i am done here. Have fun with you little pity party, i am sure Riot will ignore this lol.

VekknaJul 10, 20181 votes

This isn't all that uncommon. There is a lot of similarity between Kai'sa and the old "impossible to balance" Evelynn. Jax has the same problems as old Irelia. New Warwick is basically tank Akali with hard cc. Xin's ult, in practice, is extremely similar to Poppy's old ult that was deemed too toxic to exist. An entire assassin roster update was done to prevent exactly what assassin Kayn does with a WQ (and R if you're a tank or he misses W and still needs free gold).