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What happened to balancing around healthy design?

Hayaishi·8/4/2018, 11:33:27 AM·99 votes·16,706 views

What happened to the design values?

Why is shit like Wukong one shotting you from stealth before you can blink or Nocturne 100-0ing before you can say "Oh shit" even allowed?

What happened to the philosophy that sends Azir into F tier the very moment he dares to step out of it? The same philosophy that has kept Kalista gutted into oblivion (where she belongs) because her design is aids?

The philosophy that destroyed Ap Yi back in the day. why isn't it applied to Tryndamere? (Both his Ad and Ap counterparts should be nerfed into 0% winrate)

Why the fuck has draven who is the very definition of "feast or famine" ignored by the balance team for months?

I'm not even gonna go into Zoe because Riot nerfed her some patches ago so im gonna chill and not lose my shit when it comes to her.

I remember when the point of reworks was to create counterplay to champios beyond "stay at base if you want to live"

Why is Fizz getting buffs? We know what he is, everyone knows counterplay and Fizz are pretty much opposites so why?

Why is fucking Rengar still one shotting me from stealth because i dared to step out of base? I THOUGHT HE WAS REWORKED FOR LIKE THE 10TH TIME TO AVOID THIS (With no success) AND THEN YOU REVERT HIM?

Why was LB reverted? THERE'S A REASON WHY SHE WAS REWORKED WHY WOULD BRING IT BACK?

Why is Diana even allowed to exist? can't even farm under tower because a 3 item diana can kill you before her Q even lands.

What's next Riot? Are you gonna bring back Ap Yi? Ap Trist? S3 Kassadin with his 99% ban rate? Are gonna bring back Jayce too killing you with 2 E-Q combos from fog of war?

102 Comments

Ellena188/4/2018, 11:42:21 AM43 votes

Riot is lost and they cant do anything so we have to deal with this ignorance

Daddy Ants8/4/2018, 1:03:12 PM13 votes

Hotfix nerfs incoming for Fizz on Monday.

They are hitting ratios and base.

PaffWasTaken8/4/2018, 9:23:25 PM13 votes

Inb4 salty assassin mains claiming their champs are underadvatanged

Sono Un Kebab8/4/2018, 12:00:30 PM11 votes

Because Riot has members of the balancing team that believe they can balance the game without playing it. COFFCOFF GHOSTCRAWLER COFFCOFF And others that just friggin put everything they can on a champion when they create/rework it. COFFCOFF CERTAINT COFFCOFF

GodlyBane8/4/2018, 10:27:28 PM10 votes

They lost the legend himself, Morello

Tobykachu8/4/2018, 3:07:02 PM9 votes

Yeah, honestly damage in the game, whilst being slightly too high, isn't what's ruining the game, rather the champions they're buffing to make them stronger. It honestly feels like the season of pointless buffs to champions that people traditionally hate playing against/ champions who should never be meta simply because of how strong their kit is. Nowhere was this more apparent than with the Dr. Mundo buffs. His entire design revolves around running down the enemy squishys and trying to kill them before they can kill him, a play style that really has no place in League of Legends. A champion THAT hard to kill should not be a top tier must pick champion for obvious reasons, yet Riot felt the insane need to buff him anyway.

And this isn't just the case with Mundo, the Fizz buffs were unnecessary let alone to the degree that they DID buff him and with the power that ignite + duskblade + electrocute has, AD assassins are just way too strong. I wish Riot would understand that some champions have kits that are entirely designed around being simple.

2Charmnot2Charm8/4/2018, 11:10:06 PM9 votes

I'm not even gonna go into Zoe because Riot nerfed her some patches ago so im gonna chill and not lose my shit when it comes to her.

Let me do that for you then.

Why did it take 4 months from her release before riot decided to nerf her and the best they could do was slap a .25 second nerf to her Q? She should have stayed in the gutter where she belongs after getting hard nerfed the next patch.

Edit: Oh and remember when riot nerfed Ahri's W and R because it was too much unavoidable damage? Why the hell does Zoe have such damage for her W (legit a overloaded Ahri W) and Auto attcks?

Vztah8/4/2018, 5:39:28 PM7 votes

i mean the zoe "nerfs" really didn't do shit but w/e fair enough

DNFVixen8/5/2018, 2:52:07 AM7 votes

{quoted}

What happened to the design values?

Why is shit like Wukong one shotting you from stealth before you can blink or Nocturne 100-0ing before you can say "Oh shit" even allowed?

What happened to the philosophy that sends Azir into F tier the very moment he dares to step out of it? The same philosophy that has kept Kalista gutted into oblivion (where she belongs) because her design is aids?

The philosophy that destroyed Ap Yi back in the day. why isn't it applied to Tryndamere? (Both his Ad and Ap counterparts should be nerfed into 0% winrate)

Why the fuck has draven who is the very definition of "feast or famine" ignored by the balance team for months?

I'm not even gonna go into Zoe because Riot nerfed her some patches ago so im gonna chill and not lose my shit when it comes to her.

I remember when the point of reworks was to create counterplay to champios beyond "stay at base if you want to live"

Why is Fizz getting buffs? We know what he is, everyone knows counterplay and Fizz are pretty much opposites so why?

Why is fucking Rengar still one shotting me from stealth because i dared to step out of base? I THOUGHT HE WAS REWORKED FOR LIKE THE 10TH TIME TO AVOID THIS (With no success) AND THEN YOU REVERT HIM?

Why was LB reverted? THERE'S A REASON WHY SHE WAS REWORKED WHY WOULD BRING IT BACK?

Why is Diana even allowed to exist? can't even farm under tower because a 3 item diana can kill you before her Q even lands.

What's next Riot? Are you gonna bring back Ap Yi? Ap Trist? S3 Kassadin with his 99% ban rate? Are gonna bring back Jayce too killing you with 2 E-Q combos from fog of war?

What happened is morello left league to work on another project.

Skorch8/4/2018, 5:05:15 PM6 votes

Few points, i understand your frusteration however: While AD Trynd and Yi are very similar champs, AP Trynd and old AP Yi arent. So while wanting AP trynd nerfed, and not wanting AP Yi back are fair, they arent a good comparison.

Draven has been changed many times in SOMEWHAT recent memory including several buffs/nerfs last season, and a few this season. While also taking into account the fact that actually every AD item in the game typically goes through "And what can Draven do with it" when they get buffed and nerfed cause his Q is so god damn important to keep track of.

And as for Zoe, I can see why shes frusterating im just happy they actually change her consistently. They are non-stop tweaking her, which i think is nice. It means that they at least try to keep her from being overbearing, while not being... well... Azir and Kalista who I legitimately forgot existed for a while.

The rest is fine but i had slight issues with those 3 points.

La Bello8/4/2018, 4:43:50 PM6 votes

I've felt the same way and I've been saying this for years so I'll say it again here. Riot NEEDS to kick their rework team into overdrive and stop focusing on releasing so many champions.

I really hope that by 2019 next year our entire roster is fixed to be both healthy and with a decent amount of interaction for both parties in thier gameplay but sadly judging from the rate seem's to VGU at versus the rate at which they RELEASE new champs I dont think this is going to be happening anytime soon. The sad part is some champions dont even really need a_** visual update **_ in terms of new model. The just need a vfx/resolution modernization along with a gameplay update.

Hecarim default model is fine. resolutions and gameplay could be better Vayne default model still holds up great . gameplay could use a bit more enemy interaction though. model is fine. gameplay can get very statchecky at times Diana model is fine. Gameplay is binary and presents nothing ultimately interesting or strategic Ahri is Riot ever going to actually make it so her tails come out of ONE spot? thats still my biggest peeve about her model and I dont understand why its not fixable? She also needs a new W or a small update to it. Trundle model is fine and has a strong niche but gameplay is the literal definition of stat checking. (the entire point of this champ is literally inflating his own stats to be superior to yours so theres no way you can win) Nasus model is fine. Gameplay needs modernization. Point n click permawither + Passive and Stack system could be addressed. Garen model is fine. gameplay needs modernization Jinx model is fine. certain parts of kit could definitely be better (ZAP!, Runaans interaction vs innate Fishbones power and flame chomper s) Kindred model is fine. needs gameplay overhaul. Character wildly swings between arguably worst ranged jungler in the game and absolute jungle god that never falls off. Kalista model is fine.needs kit overhaul already so she stops being so abusable in proplay that way soloQ can finally enjoy her again Karthus model is fine. Press the big red button to eliminate entire enemy team is NOT fine. Malzahar model is fine. being a walking suppression bot whose sole existence is to force cleanse/QSS on everyone is NOT fine MasterYi great model. very low counterplay gameplay however. Really not a fan of his current E and R highlander design. Soraka model is okay. gameplay is extremely frustrating for enemies. Morello was right about her. Annie updated model. still binary one-trick pony esque gameplay. should really be the primary "minion mancer" champion but atm Ivern is better at manipulating Daisy than Annie at tibbers.

Teridax688/4/2018, 3:42:21 PM6 votes

I think part of the problem isn't simply that individual champion kits are unhealthy, but that League's overall balance and design environment has become so brittle that any design has their issues magnified. Wukong, for example, has never had his core gameplay change, but is only now becoming unhealthy because features like Duskblade and Electrocute exist. Similarly, Draven was considered tolerable for many seasons, but has gone back to feeling oppressive because there are a host of tools out there that make him too easy to play for his current rewards. While Riot has definitely released kits that are flat-out unhealthy on their own (Zoe stands out as a particularly egregious example), right now we're at a point where even kits that were fine on their own have become frustrating and unpleasant to deal with. I feel the way to address this will have to involve addressing runes and removing front-loaded burst from general systems, so that we at least find ourselves in a meta where people get one-shot less frequently.

Malak8/4/2018, 2:38:27 PM4 votes

even ahri has turned into cancer (sexy cancer but still cancer)

one charm out of the 50 she throws out hits you means you die. Flash or no flash, shield - doesn't matter if she has her ult

Stephenizgod8/4/2018, 5:36:23 PM4 votes

I agree with most of what you are saying but they reverted LB rework because she was even more cancer. One of her weaknesses has always been clearing waves and pushing, the rework changed that and made her nearly impossible to face.

Fizz getting buffs always pisses me off, he isn't a fun champion to play against or with and plenty of other champions make flashy big plays like him so why even bother bringing him back into the meta?

chipndip18/4/2018, 5:11:53 PM3 votes

It's super easy to point at all the shit that needs changing.

It's harder to convince people that play these champions that their champion has a shit design and needs to be changed.

Yeah, I remember WHY we Rengar and LB. It's because people were bashing Riot about how assassins felt too clunky and couldn't assassinate. Now they're back to their disgusting previous designs. It's not an improvement, so Idk why on Earth we'd go back to them, but here we are. OH WELL.

Nea1048/4/2018, 3:02:36 PM3 votes

They have been messing up their own game and ignoring what players told them for the whole Season.

November ---> August. They made it even worse, no reason to believe they are listening or gonna fix anything. It's just intentional.

PhearBunny8/4/2018, 4:12:42 PM3 votes

As a person with a Nocturne only account, I cal tell you there are a million and a half ways to not get 1shotted by Nocturnes ult. So many reasons in fact, that people generally don't even take Electrocute anymore.

Ayanami3rd8/4/2018, 4:53:08 PM3 votes

Assassins and assassin-like champions need to basically be completely changed or removed. The whole class is a bad design.

Jaygo418/4/2018, 7:01:59 PM3 votes

Because the game isn't about having fun playing against other peoples' champs. It's about having fun on your champion. It's really quite that simple.

Shoun8/4/2018, 10:50:34 PM2 votes

What do you expect from those retards? Game's just gonna get worse.

Melledoneus8/6/2018, 6:21:05 AM2 votes

They have a bit of a double standard.

They keep unhealthy champions like Azir and Shen in the gutter while promoting equally unhealthy champions like Zed and Wukong by making them unequivocally stronger than their competitors.

Why? No clue. It just seems like instead of tackling problems one at a time they release experimental patches to fix some problems by request rather than targeting major issues with micro patches.

It's impossible to put out a raging fire with a drizzling spray nozzle. You need a focused spray of water to put it out. Similarly, instead of making huge changes to the game Riot should single out and fix problems such as turrets and game length rather than making big meta shifts like the crit rework or buffing tanks to make the cycle of "everyone is super" complete.

It's such a simple solution once you apply it, but alas they chose to listen to complaints rather than reason. Balancing this game on vitriol and rage-filled criticism has only made things worse.

Light Burner8/5/2018, 1:10:41 AM1 votes

All i understood from half this guy's complaints are is "an assassin can assassinate me???!!! why riot!!!????" If assassins did any less dmg kaisa would burst them faster.... oh wait she already does or zoey would 1 shot them... oh wait she already does.... or a burst mage will just burst them in the early or late game... oh wait they already do.... but you know lets complain about assassins because they have mobility in their kits. LOL Riot added too much dmg in the game everyone knows it so instead of complaining about the 1 class that should be assassinating targets you should be trying to find healthy solutions to the game to lower every classes dmg and find a way to keep assassins viable.