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Riot tried too hard to push Vayne into the spotlight.

ABlueQuaker··55 votes·3,000 views

5 Buffs/'Bug Fixes'/QoL Changes in 8 Patches.

V6.22 Final Hour Stealth reclassified as Invisibility.

V6.20 Tumble BUG FIX: Fixed a few spots where Tumble was able to move across ledges.

V6.17 Tumble Bonus damage increased to 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% AD from 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% AD.

V6.16 Tumble BUG FIX: Now properly damages inhibitors and the nexus.

V6.15 Tumble NEW EFFECT: Can now be used on turrets. BUG FIX: Fixed a bug where Tumble's bonus damage was using an independent crit roll instead of being tied to the same crit roll as Vayne's basic attack.

The Bug Fix in V6.15 and the Buff to Q in V6.17 are particularly noteworthy changes. I'd say it's a classic case of pick one, not both. If I had any say in the matter I'd stop Vayne's Q from critting full-stop - she's primarily been an AD-Lifesteal-Attack Speed champion since BotRK got reworked years ago. Burst Build/Crit Build Vayne is simply exacerbating an issue that's been lying dormant in her kit since release.

40 Comments

Sire Hippington19 votes

You seem to asume(like many others) that the 6.15 changes allowed her Q to crit, which is wrong. Her Q ALWAYS could crit. The 6.15 change just changed the way it roles for crit(a similar change was done for SS some time ago). Befor, Vaynes Q bonus-damage would crit indipendently, so you could either not crit at all, crit with AA but not Q(bonus), with the Q(bonus but not the AA, or with both. Now it's changed to all or nothing, so either both crit at once, or non crits at all. The average case stays the same, but now you just alter between two extremes.

The two biggest changes were the ratio buff, which a 0.5 higher total-ad-ratio on her Q-crits with IE, and that she can now use Q on structures...oh, and the invis changes...

Anyway, i'd be happy if her Q can't crit at all anymore, It's the only AA-enchance that actually can crit on the bonus damage, and it doesn't even say that in the tooltip. If she was balanced around sustained dps from W+mobillity from Q, she'd be fine, but the crit-burst is absurd. On the otherhand, crit burst is absurd on any marksmen come to lategame(or beeing lucky post IE) I've killed other adc as cait with AA-E-AA from fullhealth in less than a second, i've killed squishys with E-AA+Q+AA as lucian from full, i've killed multiple enemies with 3 rocket crits in a row as jinx(which also only did take ~1sec due to the huge AS). Crit in general just offers way to much upfront burst for adc, vayne is just the top of that bullshit right now.

Verdade1 votes

Show me another champion whose enhanced auto's bonus damage crits as well.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Jinx

Verdade1 votes

Jayce, Ashe and Jinx have MODIFIED AA not enhanced. Entirely different mechanic

ABlueQuaker2 votes

Yeah, fair enough. I feel like at one point it had a weird mechanic though.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

The change to the crit roll was a pretty big buff Before with 50% crit there was only a 25% chance of both critically striking at the same time and 70% crit only gave a ~50% chance.

Sure the average damage is the same, but the odds of nuking someone were significantly less and the sustained damage was better with how it was.

The Governer1 votes

You are wrong. Read this thread please: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4w3nyj/tumble_crit_change_is_a_vayne_nerf_it_removes/

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I don't assume that at all. Burst build Vayne is Crit on Auto + Crit on Q + Shiv Crit all in one attack. That is what the build is. I'm pointing out that by aligning the Q Crit Roll with the Basic Attack Crit Roll, Riot has allowed for Burst build vayne to exist.

The Governer1 votes

You need to read this thread, the changes to Q crit are stealth nerfs, not buffs: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4w3nyj/tumble_crit_change_is_a_vayne_nerf_it_removes/

Troll for Trump1 votes

It's a bug, and it should be fixed, no debate about it.

Vayne has always been a problem, as she's impossible to duel with and has selfpeel. Her teamfights weak, and she has short range, but she can do a ton of dmg and get away safely, in the way that Ekko and Jayce can.

Poop Jelly6 votes

I don't think the other buffs were bad, just the stealth became invisibility one. Really unnecessary and making Vayne's life way easier.

dakota saturn7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhUUhbGf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-15T15:43:25.242+0000)

I don't think the other buffs were bad, just the stealth became invisibility one. Really unnecessary and making Vayne's life way easier.

The alternative would be to make it a camoflauge, where she would be visible in her AA range. Since she is only going to actually use the stealth during a teamfight, wouldn't it be silly to make it otherwise?

And it would be inconsistent to have Control Wards not work on any forms of invisiblility (except Vayne)

PS: I'm not a Vayne player, but I'm sure I'll get downvotes anyway.

Refer A Friend 11 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhUUhbGf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-11-15T15:51:04.655+0000)

The alternative would be to make it a camoflauge, where she would be visible in her AA range. Since she is only going to actually use the stealth during a teamfight, wouldn't it be silly to make it otherwise?

And it would be inconsistent to have Control Wards not work on any forms of invisiblility (except Vayne)

That would make her invisibility okay-ish in some areas and useless in others. Why are people calling for her head on a pike when it was only the q changes that tipped her over?

Tik1151 votes

The thing is when a camouflaged enemy is within range they are still rather hard to see

https://youtu.be/DZC_Zvo5HUI?t=155

As you can see the Twitch is within range of the Ekko to see him BUT He's still partially faded, in a teamfight something like that would be hard to notice, not to mention Vayne could roll backwards putting her outside of the camos spot range, which would let her re-position herself.

So Camo can work for her just fine, especially since the only real way to counter her stealth (Pink wards) are gone

ABlueQuaker5 votes

Riot needs to make Sweeping Lens/Oracle's Alteration/Control Wards track Invisibility and Camouflage better so that at the very least they're vulnerable to skillshot CC. I wouldn't mind that one bit - there's still counterplay there as well as the potential to outplay.

In reality, though, Riot needs to remove unnecessary strength from her kit (i.e. stuff that isn't core to her identity or doesn't make sense on a duellist champion) to allow for healthier gameplay and buffs to her intended gameplay if necessary. I much prefer the idea of Vayne as a duellist AD Carry than an Assassin that can 3-shot everything with Q Crits and the AD Steroid from R.

Mirkhail2 votes

her kit is already pretty simple (not easy to use effectively but easy to understand) so i don't think you can remove anything, only lower numbers(Q ad ratio)

a special one2 votes

pinks are gay

Salron6 votes

Why do you include 6.20 That's literally just a straight up nerf if you were one of the 3 people who could position properly to tumble over ledges

Vistha2 votes

3 people

You are too generous.

Hawkefire1 votes

If he left it out then people would be saying "oh you ignored the Nerf in 6.20" or some bs like that.

Oglaf4 votes

Is she also losing her religion?

Saianna3 votes

BUG FIX: Now properly damages inhibitors and the nexus.

But Viktors Q empowered attack deals even LESS than his basic AA against structures.

"Balance" Hipocrisy level 1000!

Verdade1 votes

No other enhanced AA is able to crit

ForgiveColour1 votes

Seems fair for a champion that gets a free lichbane at level 1

Saianna1 votes

Yeah, cause nothing feels better to play as MAGE in almost face to face scenario.

By the way, speaking of "lichbane at level 1"................ isn't Vayne exactly the same? Or like 20 other champions with empowered attacks?

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Dude, you included a nerf

Danjeng1 votes

Who? I don't know what you're talking about.

The REAL problem of the botlane is some sort of invisible enemy who chunks my health in a split-second.

Sightless661 votes

The Bug Fix in V6.15 and the Buff to Q in V6.17 are particularly noteworthy changes

What exactly do you think the 6.15 bug fix did? Are you under the impression that it allowed her to crit on the Q damage? If so, you're mistaken. Her Q could crit before. What used to happen is that whenever she used the Q, her standard autoattack damage and her Q bonus damage would roll to crit separately. This meant she could crit on her autoattack damage, her Q bonus damage, neither, or both. The bug fix made it so that either the entire Q crit, or none of it did. Same expected damage.

In fact, the 6.15 changes actually nerfed Vayne because it also fixed another bug Riot didn't report. She used to have a buggy interaction on her Q where rolling the crit for one part of the Q autoattack would lead to the entire ability and autoattack critting. Here's a reddit thread explaining in more detail. The 6.15 bug fix corrected that, which the reason why her winrate dropped 3% that patch and staying low until she got buffed despite being paired with a buff and despite there being no increase whatsoever in her play rate.

That's part of why Riot followed up on her so quickly. They fucked up and accidentally nerfed her, and that did need to be addressed.

With that said, I do agree that she clearly needs nerfs now that the preseason has come about. The stealth changes helped her a lot, and she's too strong right now. I'd advocate for reducing the crit damage on her Q to 50%.

Boulderox1 votes

5 Buffs/'Bug Fixes'/QoL Changes in 8 Patches.

BECAUSE of this https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Pfoe0Ic9rQY/V2gw22nn1BI/AAAAAAAA72A/mcQq9wuX4cQIxCImUaISAkJ2rhZI_kfGQCLcB/s1600/Vayne_Splash_10.jpg

i mean, this was released and coincidentally she gets buffs AAANNND you can buy bundles with a guarenteed gemstone for a bit

.>_> sure riot, you were worried about vayne

Kingdom Corn1 votes

Lux buffs incoming.

invisiblecat11 votes

these are 3 buffs a nerf and a bugfix but still I hate her and wish she was nerfed

IceKingChernobog1 votes

Until riot properly breaks her legs she will be on my permaban list

LemurMonster1 votes

Why nerf her true damage a bit? They did it to Gnar 3rd proc so why not her? Seems fair since Gnars still can be countered by getting MR & hers really cant not by any defense item.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Because she's actually meant to be a tank-busting duellist. She's also not a part-time Tank like Gnar who has game-changing CC. Gnar's damage was nerfed because he was doing that sort of damage with Full Tank + Cleaver. You CC a Gnar and not only would he survive it, but you'd have no cooldowns in reserve for the actual carry.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. The only thing Vayne and Gnar have in common is that they have an ability that only procs after 3 consecutive attacks on a target (hell, gnar only takes 2 attacks and a Q).

Of all the things you could tell Riot to nerf, her W isn't even on the radar. We're not in a tank meta. The amount of true damage she's doing is incredibly minute.

LemurMonster1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Blue Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhUUhbGf,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-11-16T03:07:33.498+0000)

Because she's actually meant to be a tank-busting duellist. She's also not a part-time Tank like Gnar who has game-changing CC. Gnar's damage was nerfed because he was doing that sort of damage with Full Tank + Cleaver. You CC a Gnar and not only would he survive it, but you'd have no cooldowns in reserve for the actual carry.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. The only thing Vayne and Gnar have in common is that they have an ability that only procs after 3 consecutive attacks on a target (hell, gnar only takes 2 attacks and a Q).

Of all the things you could tell Riot to nerf, her W isn't even on the radar. We're not in a tank meta. The amount of true damage she's doing is incredibly minute.

His 45% win rate otherwise... lel

ABlueQuaker1 votes

He's been sitting at around 45-50% for months. That's healthy for someone post-nerf.

Zedex1 votes

They did the same thing with Karma and no one made a big deal out of it until she was a R+E spam bot for a patch.

Bards been a victim of this since his release. He wasn't strong, or popular. So Riot has continuously buffed him so pro players will feel obligated to pick him based on his power level and mechanics he brings to the map. This is a regular thing, the only reason you're making a big deal out of it is because its Vayne.

Frius1 votes

i rate vayne dmg 11/10

Ale non è male

The problem is not that they wanted to push Vayne on the spotlight, because you are mentioning here bugfixes (one consequential to a buff and one which people told you was a clarity thing and neutrale to Nerf Outlook overall) and what is the result of a sistemic change that didn't involve only Vayne (6.22, and is not likely you always had a Pink available specifically for Vayne ult at that point). The problem is that her weakness was much exaggerated and overrated at first, while it was probably only a result of an unfavourable meta for her in bot lane, so even not big buffs put her in a super strong position given how meta has also changed Now she can not only duel super well, but has also improved a ton in taking objectives, which made her strong across all the board. She can be corrected with small touches tbh

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