Self healing shouldnt exist on Darius/Illaoi/Maokai

fuffychan·May 28, 2017·4 votes·1,381 views

Theres a reason dont have any healing in their kit. It gives them a weakness in lane so theyre not too oppressive. We also saw them remove healing from .

I will make exceptions for because they are pretty much all auto attacks, and since they were designed and based around that healing.

Meanwhile Riot gives massive healing to allowing them to autowin any lane matchup vs fighters that lack sustain. Riot keeps throwing all these things onto their kit and "hey lets give them a heal somewhere" without thinking about the consequences.

Why are tanks being designed to win lane vs fighters? Fighters are supposed to win duels, tanks are supposed to win late game. These heals need to be removed.

[Edit] removed point still stands

52 Comments

Death by GlamourMay 28, 20175 votes

Morde has in built sustain

As does riven

If self healing was removed from many of the toplaners ranged champs would move in and just dominate the lane

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

Right, I remember now Mordes ult heals him a little bit. Hardly game breaking in lane however.

And Riven does how?

Im not talking about ranged champs. Im talking about champs with healing automatically winning lane vs those that dont. How is that fair?

Death by GlamourMay 28, 20172 votes

He has both a shield and a heal and riven E

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

Champs lacking heals have other tools to avoid damage

Pantheon has a auto blocking shield MonkeyKing has a clone Riven has a shield

None of those actually gain hp, and require (somewhat) tactical usage to maximize. Riven is arguable since she has no costs and low cds...

GaliöMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Champs lacking heals have other tools to avoid damage

has a auto blocking shield has a clone has a shield

None of those actually gain hp, and require (somewhat) tactical usage to maximize. is arguable since she has no costs and low cds...

And those champs have ago closer and multiple ways of getting yo the enemy other than running at them really hard. If you take away Darius and illaoi healing they'd be garbage champ.

deusexeestiMay 28, 20172 votes

Those are shields, relatively minimal, and on mana-less champions. So it is a lot different than flat out healing, especially in the amounts that some of the champs do.

Death by GlamourMay 28, 20172 votes

They also aren't effected by gw

Morde has a heal...

But as I said if said champs had no self healing the likes of kennen Quinn and gnar would move back in and dominate the lane

Arcus DiabolusMay 28, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-28T00:57:58.588+0000)

Morde has in built sustain

As does riven

If self healing was removed from many of the toplaners ranged champs would move in and just dominate the lane

Riven doesn't have sustain. She has a shield. A shield won't allow her heal back up and stay in lane after a bad trade. By that logic, any defensive skill in the game is sustain.

Death by GlamourMay 28, 20172 votes

A shield stops her from taking damage after she goes in for a trade...

Asayake 5150glowMay 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-28T00:57:58.588+0000)

Morde has in built sustain

As does riven

If self healing was removed from many of the toplaners ranged champs would move in and just dominate the lane

Riven doesnt...

AFilthyCaitMainMay 28, 20175 votes

If illaoi didnt heal, shed die the second she jumped in for her ult

deusexeestiMay 28, 20171 votes

This. Although I agree there definitely could be a more tactful way like swapping some of it over to damage reduction or some of the lifesteal gained scaling with level/points in skill.

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

By that logic we should make Amumu Fiddlesticks Kennen ults heal them too

RalanrMay 28, 20173 votes

Two of those utilize hourglass. One of them has healing.

But hey, if you want to give Amumu healing, go for it.

FurriesAreHotMay 28, 20172 votes

I don't think the logic he had was "AOE ult = healing"

JavelinJoeMay 28, 20171 votes

Amumu - built in damage reduction and his engage is a long range and/or a massive AOE both being hard CC. Fiddlesticks - has a heal that lasts for as long as he has mana and a close target, and a fear, and a silence which bounces 7 times Kennen - Massive AOE hard CC, can build completely AD (thus able to utilize life steal also).

All 3 can and often do use Zhonya's Hourglass.

Asayake 5150glowMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If illaoi didnt heal, shed die the second she jumped in for her ult

She still does most of the time lol

Illâoi Evê SiônMay 28, 20175 votes

Illaoi and Darius are Juggernauts, a subclass of Fighters, not Tanks. So yeah, they are supposed to win fights against Tanks.

Maokai might be an isolated issue.

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

I really dont care about any of these silly "subclasses", but even if you say theyre supposed to win vs "tanks", Pantheon MonkeyKing Riven are not tanks.

Illâoi Evê SiônMay 28, 20172 votes

They have more damage than your average Fighter so they probably have better chances in lane.

fuffychanMay 28, 20172 votes

Then why does Darius autowin any lane vs melees? Remove his healing so we can bring diversity to top lane.

RalanrMay 28, 20172 votes

Removing his heal would make him useless outside of lane.

VerxintMay 28, 20174 votes

I don't understand why people act like the subclass list doesn't matter when it's literally the official Riot list... Whether or not you care about it is irrelevant, it is the proper list and champions are designed based on it. Juggernauts are meant to be tanky champions that can't really choose their targets but can smash through almost anything in their way while taking hits like a champ. This is naturally going to be a strong duelist against tanks. As for Divers, those 3 you mentioned, that's usually a skill matchup leaning in favor of the Juggernaut, though with exceptions (Riven dumpsters Illaoi for example).

The real weakness of Juggernauts is powerful dueling Skirmishers, as those champs can maneuver around the Juggernaut, engage and disengage to dictate fights, and have the damage to actually kill it. Their other weakness is, of course, getting kited to shit in a teamfight.

Guyy FieriMay 28, 20175 votes

Darius and Illaoi lack mobility tho. That's the trade off.

Zane ZephyrMay 28, 20171 votes

They also have zero poke too

Big LincolnMay 28, 20174 votes

illaoi's bad tho

also not a tank

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

Ive seen her heal from below half hp to full by pressing R

How is that okay?

RalanrMay 28, 20172 votes

Did people stand in her R instead of leave it?

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

Teammates with cc dont exist

RalanrMay 28, 20174 votes

So you got womboed. Just like with other wombos, a crazy result happens.

She needs teammates to even make that ult effective.

MavenSongMay 28, 20171 votes

My very first instinct when illaoi ults is to walk away... she loses most her power then. The only time i dont is when i know my team can burst her.

Big LincolnMay 28, 20176 votes

maybe you shouldn't clump on her ult knowing that Illaoi is really good at being able to slingshot back to high HP

maybe you should have gotten summoner 14 item 3165 or item 3123 to prevent her from healing that much to begin with

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

I shouldnt have to buy those items for someone who shouldnt have healing in the first place

TyrekGoldenspearMay 28, 201710 votes

The game doesn't revolve around what you think is necessary.

FurriesAreHotMay 28, 20172 votes

Statistically impossible m8

RalanrMay 28, 20174 votes

Those three champions you mentioned are also very mobile and can engage or disengage fights whenever they want.

Most juggernauts and tanks cannot. They can engage fights sometime, but they usually lack disengage for fights.

FeelsCampedManMay 28, 20173 votes

>Morde having no healing LUL http://puu.sh/w37o9/0411953d16.png

fuffychanMay 28, 20171 votes

wtf is that? okay apparently he has healing now lol

remove that too

RalanrMay 28, 20174 votes

He always had healing. He casts from his health. He literally needs sustain in order for that to work.

Glory ln DeathMay 28, 20173 votes

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PermabannedGarenMay 28, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-05-28T03:37:33.497+0000)

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Clutch ThompsonMay 28, 20172 votes

Darius needs it to wade through the crowd in a fight to get damage and stacks off with his Q

illaoi needs it to live when she's ulting

Maoki would get abused in lane

Morde heals a lot...2015 rework traded bonus resistance on his W for healing. He needs it due to them gutting his E ability.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 28, 20172 votes

Sure. On one condition.

Give them stealth, mobility, manaless, and/or more damage so they can be more like the first 3 champs you mentioned.

PermabannedGarenMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Theres a reason dont have any healing in their kit. It gives them a weakness in lane so theyre not too oppressive. We also saw them remove healing from .

I will make exceptions for because they are pretty much all auto attacks, and since they were designed and based around that healing.

Meanwhile Riot gives massive healing to allowing them to autowin any lane matchup vs fighters that lack sustain. Riot keeps throwing all these things onto their kit and "hey lets give them a heal somewhere" without thinking about the consequences.

Why are tanks being designed to win lane vs fighters? Fighters are supposed to win duels, tanks are supposed to win late game. These heals need to be removed.

[Edit] removed point still stands

Wukong and Riven outscale Illaoi, Maokai, and Darius though.

Riven also happens to generally beat Darius in lane.

Arcus DiabolusMay 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Wukong and Riven outscale Illaoi, Maokai, and Darius though.

Riven also happens to generally beat Darius in lane.

Illaoi I would argue against. I recently played two games in one day as Riven vs Illaoi and both times I found I could kill her early, but not late.

Against Illaoi I had to build item 3036 in order to kill her, and even then, I couldn't do it solo.

In a admittedly hilarious act of disrespect toward me, one of those Illaoi rushed MR against my Riven and both didn't bother with armor until very late game when our ADC started looking at her.

PermabannedGarenMay 28, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-05-28T02:29:51.376+0000)

Illaoi I would argue against. I recently played two games in one day as Riven vs Illaoi and both times I found I could kill her early, but not late.

Against Illaoi I had to build in order to kill her, and even then, I couldn't do it solo.

In a admittedly hilarious act of disrespect toward me, one of those Illaoi rushed MR against my Riven and both didn't bother with armor until very late game when our ADC started looking at her.

Who gives a shit that Illaoi could duel you late game as Riven? Illaoi is a fat useless sack of shit outside of lane against decent players, whereas Riven gets more and more useful as the game goes on.

Also, try item 3033 instead. Illaoi is dependent on her immense healing from her ult to survive, cutting that nearly in half is worth more than 500 bonus damage. I'd also recommend a death's dance.

Arcus DiabolusMay 28, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Who gives a shit that Illaoi could duel you late game as Riven? Illaoi is a fat useless sack of shit outside of lane against decent players, whereas Riven gets more and more useful as the game goes on.

Chill.

The point is Riven does not actually outscale her. I could kill her early but not late. She was beaten by an item, not Riven.

EDIT: item 3033 would be useful, but someone had to bring her down low enough to convince her to use the ult to begin with, so I tried item 3036 considering the health stacking she was doing. Next time I'll try Mortal Reminder, tho. Its worth a shot. (Now, I just need someone to pick Illaoi again...)

PermabannedGarenMay 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-28T02:40:46.591+0000)

Chill.

I'm completely chill my man.

The point is Riven does not actually outscale her.

Your point is wrong, Riven vastly outscales Illaoi my friend.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Riven/

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Illaoi/

Go to win rate by game length. Riven's is 52.6% past forty minutes, Illaoi is rocking the hot 47.1%. Go to any other statistics site. The actual numbers may vary, but they will all support the point that Riven outscales Illaoi.

I could kill her early but not late. She was beaten by an item, not Riven.

It doesn't matter that you couldn't duel her late game. Illaoi is simply not as useful to her team as Riven is to hers late game, therefore Riven outscales Illaoi.

To use another example, you know how I mentioned Wukong? I'm not 100% positive, but I am very confident in the notion that Darius would dominate him 1v1 late game. But Wukong still vastly outscales Darius, because while Darius is a fat fuck who gets kited in team fights, Wukong can dictate the course of a team fight (and thus, the game) hugely late game, all by himself.

Also, what is your second point supposed to say? She was beaten by an item? Items are the things that primarily allow champions to scale. Riven happens to scale very well with the items you built due to her kit, and Illaoi's kit means she is cripplingly weak to certain purchases as the game goes on. Hence why she scales poorly. As other champions begin picking up more items her effectiveness wanes, whereas Riven's is still very good.

EDIT: would be useful, but someone had to bring her down low enough to convince her to use the ult to begin with, so I tried considering the health stacking she was doing. Next time I'll try Mortal Reminder, tho. Its worth a shot. (Now, I just need someone to pick Illaoi again...)

Riven as a champion does enough damage to hurt Illaoi with the right items.

item 3071 item 3047 item 3074 item 3812 item 3033 item 3026

If I wanted to duel Illaoi as Riven, this is probably the build I'd choose. You might still lose though, idk. I'm not sure if Riven can 1v1 Illaoi late game. Dodging the E might be mandatory, as might be kiting out her ultimate. I can't think of a better build for it than this however. But this is beside the point. Dueling strength is not how scaling is measured. Otherwise, most assassins would outscale almost every ADC but Vayne, and, well, they don't.

Arcus DiabolusMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm completely chill my man.

Your point is wrong, Riven vastly outscales Illaoi my friend.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Riven/

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Illaoi/

Go to win rate by game length. Riven's is 52.6% past forty minutes, Illaoi is rocking the hot 47.1%. Go to any other statistics site. The actual numbers may vary, but they will all support the point that Riven outscales Illaoi.

It doesn't matter that you couldn't duel her late game. Illaoi is simply not as useful to her team as Riven is to hers late game, therefore Riven outscales Illaoi.

To use another example, you know how I mentioned Wukong? I'm not 100% positive, but I am very confident in the notion that Darius would dominate him 1v1 late game. But Wukong still vastly outscales Darius, because while Darius is a fat fuck who gets kited in team fights, Wukong can dictate the course of a team fight (and thus, the game) hugely late game, all by himself.

Also, what is your second point supposed to say? She was beaten by an item? Items are the things that primarily allow champions to scale. Riven happens to scale very well with the items you built due to her kit, and Illaoi's kit means she is cripplingly weak to certain purchases as the game goes on. Hence why she scales poorly. As other champions begin picking up more items her effectiveness wanes, whereas Riven's is still very good.

Riven as a champion does enough damage to hurt Illaoi with the right items.

If I wanted to duel Illaoi as Riven, this is probably the build I'd choose. You might still lose though, idk. I'm not sure if Riven can 1v1 Illaoi late game. Dodging the E might be mandatory, as might be kiting out her ultimate. I can't think of a better build for it than this however. But this is beside the point. Dueling strength is not how scaling is measured. Otherwise, most assassins would outscale almost every ADC but Vayne, and, well, they don't.

Mind you, I never said Riven can't win against her. I'm saying in terms of stopping Illaoi from taking an objective, Riven can't do it on her own. I actually beat Illaoi both of those two games, but not by out boxing her.

Riven IS however a lot more useful at getting around the map and being a menace to Illaoi's team and her objectives. Its how I beat Illaoi both times.

But in terms of stats and duels, like say everyone else on their team's are dead and just just Riven and Illaoi left, or Illaoi was split pushing top and Riven's whole team was bot for example, if Illaoi wanted to challenge Riven's turrets, in my own personal experience, Riven struggles to make a dent on her own, even under tower.

I'll try your build next time tho. What should be my first three items?

PermabannedGarenMay 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uh62A8OE,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-28T03:38:03.372+0000)

Mind you, I never said Riven can't win against her. I'm saying in terms of stopping Illaoi from taking an objective, Riven can't do it on her own. I actually beat Illaoi both of those two games, but not by out boxing her.

Riven IS however a lot more useful at getting around the map and being a menace to Illaoi's team and her objectives. Its how I beat Illaoi both times.

But in terms of stats and duels, like say everyone else on their team's are dead and just just Riven and Illaoi left, or Illaoi was split pushing top and Riven's whole team was bot for example, if Illaoi wanted to challenge Riven's turrets, in my own personal experience, Riven struggles to make a dent on her own, even under tower.

I'll try your build next time tho. What should be my first three items?

That's a very niche scenario. More often, Illaoi is essentially irrelevant in team fights, gets kited, and is DPS'd down by your ADC late game while you're busy eating her back line, or helping peel for your carry.

I don't play much Riven, but I'd imagine you rush BC, get EC somewhere in there to mitigate her healing early on, get caulfields, finish Hydra, then DD, then the rest of the build.