I Miss Being Able to ACTUALLY "Fill"

Sugar Momma·Apr 27, 2016·77 votes·3,840 views

Because right now, if I put "Fill" as primary or secondary I will get support 95% of the time.

I like variety, I like all the roles, and I liked not knowing what role I'd end up in. Theoretically "fill" should work for me, but in practice it's absolutely awful.

Now I have to decide which two roles I would want to play every game, when I really don't want to.

Note this is coming from someone who plays a ton of support and would even daresay he mains it. But I'm tired of playing it every game.

109 Comments

TotalJerkApr 27, 201625 votes

Fill is working as intended, then. Fill is not the random option, it's you telling the system you'll take whatever role is in demand.

Sugar MommaApr 27, 201613 votes

Which is always support...

TotalJerkApr 27, 201613 votes

That isn't fill's fault. Fill is not there to provide you variety, it's to speed up queue times overall. You give up getting a role you actually want to get a fast queue, and everyone else gets faster queues by having a larger supply of the most demanded roles.

RandomoniumApr 27, 201627 votes

Sorry but this is completely false. People have been filling long before there was the new champion select. Filling did nothing to reduce your queue time in season 5 or earlier and yet tons of people still did it. People filled under the old champion select because they liked diversity and wanted to ensure someone didn't get stuck with a role they sucked at. I did it most of season 5 and I only wound up playing support maybe 30% of the time.

Just because selecting fill in the NEW champion select DOES reduce your queue time does not mean that is why people choose to fill.

The whole reason why we have this problem now in season 6 is all the fill players from season 5 who were fine playing support 30-50% of the time started getting support 90+% of the time with the new champion select, which caused most of them to stop selecting fill. This made the support player pool, which was already the smallest pool, even smaller, which dramatically increases queue times.

TotalJerkApr 27, 20168 votes

It speeds up queue times because the new system allowing you to pick your roles leaves role shortages. The current system is restricted what games it can place people in, but all the old system had to do is find 10 people of similar skill then let them work out roles after the fact. Everyone was effectively fill under the old system.

RandomoniumApr 27, 201610 votes

Exactly. This is why the notion that fill is only for shorter queue times is false. If it were true then no one would have identified themselves as a fill player before season 6 because what role you wanted to play didn't affect your queue time length before season 6. Fill players identify themselves as fill because they want role diversity, not shorter queue times.

TotalJerkApr 27, 20165 votes

I'm not sure if I have a spate of poor reading comprehension, or that the logic of what you said doesn't remotely follow.

RandomoniumApr 27, 20167 votes

You ever see the South Park episode where all the men in South Park stick their balls in the microwave so they can get testicular cancer so they can get weed prescriptions? Well in the same episode they also ban KFC from South Park. One of the doctors at the end of the episode concludes that the reason why all the men were getting testicular cancer was because KFC was banned from South Park, that KFC was keeping people healthy. The point being that correlation does not imply causation.

Just because a fill player in season 6 gets shorter queue times in season 6 for selecting fill does not mean that they select fill BECAUSE they want shorter queue times.

Most of these people were fill players BEFORE season 6, when queue times were not affected by role selection. Therefore, those people are obviously not selecting fill for shorter queue times.

These fill players pick fill because its an easy way to not have to play the same role over and over. They don't care what role they play, they just don't want to play the same role over and over. With the new system in season 6 if you select fill you are given support 90+% of the time. So basically this new system has taken an option that players originally associated with "not having to play the same role over and over" and now made it so that if you choose fill you play the same role over and over.

Can you understand why fill players are frustrated with the new system now? Our whole reason for selecting fill has been taken away which has caused many of use to stop selecting fill. Since us fill players used to play support 20-30% of the time and now we aren't playing support anymore because we don't select fill anymore that puts a huge strain on the matchmaking system and increases queue times.

If Riot wants to increase its support player base and decrease queue times the easiest way to do it is make fill a truly random option (i.e. equal chance to get all roles.) This would make fill players start selecting fill again which would increase the number of players willing to play support.

TotalJerkApr 27, 20167 votes

Okay I get it now. You were refuting a point I didn't make.

My point is that fill is not designed for people who "want variety", and isn't meant to serve that purpose. If you have no concern about queue time and just don't want to play the same role repeatedly, that's understandable, but a different issue entirely. That can be somewhat remedied by just picking two random roles on your own every time you queue.

But to address what you said, back then fill was basically saying you'd take whatever nobody else wanted, and that was typically support FAR more often than 20% of the time unless there was a duo on your team.

RandomoniumApr 27, 20164 votes

That's also not true, at least for me. I filled most of season 5 and I got support maybe 30% of the time. Now if I select fill with the new champion select I get fill 90+% of the time. That's the problem. The new system is vastly inferior for fill players than the old system.

So what does this do? It means that I stop selecting fill. So now instead of supporting 30% of the time like I did in season 5 I now support 0% of the time. This makes other fill players (and those who select support secondary) more likely to get support which in turn makes them not choose fill (or secondary support) anymore. Its a downward spiral from there.

Only by making fill more balanced in role distribution will we be able to fix the problem.

My point is that fill is not designed for people who "want variety", and isn't meant to serve that purpose.

Yes it was. That was the ONLY reason people said fill before the new champion select. Just because a new champion select comes along does change why people decided to become fill players originally.

What was the purpose of calling fill before season 6 if it wasn't to have role variety?

PartholonianApr 27, 20165 votes

{quoted}

So what does this do? It means that I stop selecting fill. So now instead of supporting 30% of the time like I did in season 5 I now support 0% of the time.

Well, that's one possible response. Or you could drop fill only when you were support last game/have played N games in a row of support and put it in any time you're not hating the idea of one more goddamn game as support.

I mean, presumably you don't absolutely hate support forever or you wouldn't have filled at all; if you only really object to having support "too much", why don't you decide for yourself how much is "too much" and take a break from filling until you're ready to go back to it?

What was the purpose of calling fill before season 6 if it wasn't to have role variety?

To reduce the chance of having someone on your team who was toxic from minute 1 because they were forced into a role they hated. That doesn't just trash your team's chances of winning the game, it often makes it unfun too. With new champion select, that can never happen. That is a huge win and Riot isn't going to give it up, nor should they.

Maybe they could implement a "variety" role that is "fill except for the same role I was last game", and have that exist alongside true fill. That would probably get you pretty close to 50% support, but if there's a substantial number of people that would be OK for that are unwilling to use the current fill option, it might be worth the development time to implement.

Dr BirdieApr 28, 20166 votes

The purpose?

The reason people chose fill in all of my experiences in the past nearly four years was because they didn't care what role they got (and also to avoid in-fighting because old draft pick was terrible and could easily set up a team of four people that all wanted mid).

Not for randomness. Because they merely did not care.

High5Apr 28, 20162 votes

Exactly, the "new" system is a bad system.

PartholonianApr 27, 20165 votes

{quoted}

People filled under the old champion select because they liked diversity and wanted to ensure someone didn't get stuck with a role they sucked at. I did it most of season 5 and I only wound up playing support maybe 30% of the time.

It was always pretty bad at the first part (I was also a fill player and I remember it as being about 70% support, 20% jungle, 10% everything else combined; it definitely has never been anything like random select), but more importantly, the second part is something everyone gets all the time now. That's the real point of new champion select, to completely eliminate "I have to support because I'm last pick". (Or occasionally something else, but usually support.) Which means you need a bunch more voluntary supports.

It also means you can't win games because your team had a support who knows something about support and theirs had another mid main who wound up last pick and built straight AP Annie with no vision, but that's really kind of a lousy way to win anyway.

If you really want random select, keep a pair of dice of different colors near your computer. One die for primary, the other for secondary, with the numbers corresponding to the five roles and fill (or reroll, if you don't like the extra amount of support that will result from selecting fill on top of the actual roles). Don't ask fill to be something it isn't intended to be.

Dr BirdieApr 28, 20163 votes

I actually really like that dice idea. However I feel like there are going to be quite a few people who look at your comment and think to their over-entitled selves "Well, why should I have to get dice? Riot should just spend a bunch of money to implement it into the game so that I don't have to do anything."

NekusenApr 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UX1geauw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-27T14:48:07.180+0000)

Which is always support...

i play blind pick, i always call "fill" (i actually don't call anything and just way for people to call) and 80% of the times i get support.

LiveYiOrDieHardApr 27, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Fill is working as intended, then. Fill is not the random option, it's you telling the system you'll take whatever role is in demand.

It's not working as intended for one simple reason: Fill mains are taking themselves out of the support role, which is actually increasing the demand for supports.

Sugar MommaApr 27, 20163 votes

Exactly this. I played majority support, but only like 50-60% of the time, not 95%.

Sugar MommaApr 27, 20162 votes

Exactly this. I played majority support, but only like 50-60% of the time, not 95%.

SasogwaApr 27, 201622 votes

What are you talking about? You ARE filling. Filling means getting the roles other don't want. Other people don't want support. Saying you're not filling anymore because you get support often makes no sense whatsoever. Fill =/= Random

MrBuffingtonApr 27, 20169 votes

^this is how it's always been; I mostly played fill last season, was playing support most of the time

Sugar MommaApr 27, 20166 votes

Yes but not as much as you do now. I played support maybe a little over half my games, whereas now it's nearly every game. This is because people who used to fill but now always get support no longer fill, and you have a snowballing effect.

PartholonianApr 27, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UX1geauw,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-04-27T20:52:36.995+0000)

Yes but not as much as you do now. I played support maybe a little over half my games, whereas now it's nearly every game. This is because people who used to fill but now always get support no longer fill, and you have a snowballing effect.

And because a fill and a support main (or a fill and another fill) will rarely be placed on the same team anymore; it's more efficient to put them on different teams and get 8 more players out of the long list of people who don't want to support.

This is mostly a side effect of not having teams with nobody who is willing to support, where the team breaks up into toxic infighting before the game even starts; it's hard to argue that Riot should go back to that. But it highlights the demand for people willing to support in order for games to start at all.

TrylobyteApr 27, 20169 votes

It would seem, then, that Riot needs to find out why nobody wants to play support (there's a lot of reasons) and address that.

JasiwelApr 27, 20166 votes

IMO, it's psychological. Supporting isn't gratifying compared to playing Mid/ADC/Jungler, your teammates are as likely to harass you as if you were JG/ADC, and failing as a support makes a fight a 4v5 even if you're still alive.

Unfortunately, a support is either guttered into being a damage sponge, a peel bot, or a utility whore. If they go beyond that then they're too powerful (old Support Annie, pre-nerf Thresh, pre-nerf Orianna/Brand) and oppressive. If they're none of those then they're one-trick ponies that people harass you for playing, like Blitzcrank. Miss too many pulls or pull the wrong champion and your team tilts each other. Land enough pulls on the enemy team and they become tilted.

I don't mind support, but I don't like the fact that I can do my job very well and still wind up with a dead carry because my gold income and levels are below everyone else. It's not fun to peel an assassin off your carry and still watch them blow up anyways.

Le DauphinApr 27, 20167 votes

Part of the problem is that people who would be fine with playing support once in a while now leave it out of their choices completely, because picking support/fill is asking to get it 95% of the time.

I consider myself a mid main, but I enjoy filling and am happy to play support. But if I queue as mid/support I get 23 games in a row as support. So now I'm mid/jungle to make sure I can play mid sometimes, which is a shame.

As more people do the same and more potential supports are lost, the problem's only going to get worse.

For starters, they need to actually try to get you your primary role. Just because my secondary is support or fill doesn't mean I want to be matched in 5 seconds to a game as a support every single time.

ahferroin7Apr 27, 20163 votes

Just the ones that come to mind:

No kills
Functional dependency on somebody else
Not taking kills is not as easy as people make it out to be
Constant abuse (this is getting better)
Lack of itemization options
Doesn't feel like you're doing anything, even when you're the one keeping the team from falling to pieces (ties in with issue 1).

There are all kinds of other reasons, but it's worth noting that I've seen people quote all of these specific ones on a regular basis as reasons they don't play support; and half of them are psychological, and therefore can't really be solved by Riot.

YaskamasandwichApr 27, 20169 votes

Fill used to been different? Not really, it was always a short word for support.

DukuesApr 27, 20165 votes

I feel like literally over half of these comments are from people who don't play ranked and have no idea wtf they talking about. Fill in the old system is nothing like it is now because groups were not prearranged like they are now. Old draft you literally could get 4 support mains on the same team, or 4 mid mains, or w/e. I remember some days when I would play 7 games in a row as support. Then the next day I would play 7-8 ranked games and not play support once. This season.. i have played majority of my ranked games as support since I picked fill for probably 85% of them and got support all but 2-3 times aka Over 95% of the time.

Ashe JungleApr 27, 20164 votes

I play only ashe on this account. I started leveling it back before the new champ select, and my intention was to be Ashe only and always fill. Obviously this season I couldn't do that.

So instead what I've been doing is always putting Jungle as my primary, and rotating through my secondary. So I queue jg/top, and as soon as I get a top game I start queueing jg/mid. When I get a mid game I queue jg/supp, etc, etc.

It means that I get jungle most of the time, and a perfectly even distribution of the other roles. Maybe something like this would work for you? You might also rotate your primary each time. Sure, it takes the surprise out of things for the most part. But are you looking for randomness, or are you looking to not have to make the decision? If you just want to not have to decide, a pre-decided order does that for you.

ArcyvilkApr 28, 20164 votes

I miss being an actual mid/support player.

Wild WesApr 27, 20163 votes

What I think Sugar Momma is trying to say is that instead of fill making him support 95% of the time, it should be mixed up. Since support is the least favourite role there's less people in queue with it. So instead of making fill random, it makes it support to set up the game as quickly as possible, instead of having to look longer for a match.

Dr BirdieApr 27, 20163 votes

It isn't supposed to be random. It allows you to fill empty slots so as to get into game quicker. Since support is the least picked role, that has the highest rate of being empty thus it gets filled quicker.

Fill was never intended to be random, it was intended for people who didn't care what role they got as long as they got into a game.

chipndip1Apr 27, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What I think Sugar Momma is trying to say is that instead of fill making him support 95% of the time, it should be mixed up. Since support is the least favourite role there's less people in queue with it. So instead of making fill random, it makes it support to set up the game as quickly as possible, instead of having to look longer for a match.

But that's how fill works. Fill is not "random". Fill is "whatever's open, put me in there". If support's always open, where do you think the fill player goes? Wherever that's open, which happens to be support almost all the time.

You can't blame the function for a problem it didn't create.

Wild WesApr 27, 20163 votes

When people picked fill in blind, that wouldn't have any effect on whether you would be support. Sure most people didn't like support, but with the fill in draft, you are premade with each role so there is a higher chance of getting fill, as he said it was 95%, then before.

Dr BirdieApr 27, 20163 votes

Saying "I'll fill" in old draft or even current blind pick, netted the same results. New Champ Select didn't lower the amount of people wanting to play support any more than there already was.

A LiberalApr 27, 20168 votes

Not really. Saying fill oftentimes gave me all roles, mid and jungle being rare, but still got them. Now I literally Only get support

Dr BirdieApr 27, 20162 votes

Regardless of your experiences. Fill is not the "I'll take a random role" pick, it is the "I'll take the empty role" pick. It just so happens that support is the most empty role.

The reason it is called fill is because you fill in a role that is needed, and support is the most needed role.

If you are not ready to play any role given to you, don't pick fill.

SchadockApr 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Midnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UX1geauw,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2016-04-27T23:43:00.206+0000)

Regardless of your experiences. Fill is not the "I'll take a random role" pick, it is the "I'll take the empty role" pick. It just so happens that support is the most empty role.

The reason it is called fill is because you fill in a role that is needed, and support is the most needed role.

If you are not ready to play ~~any role given to you~~ support, don't pick fill.

fixed

Fact is, there would be more people willing to take fill, if they weren't assured to get support. Now "fill" is just another button for support, and I am pretty sure it is not as intended.

DukuesApr 27, 20163 votes

I am the exact same way and feel the exact same way.

Just Blame JennyApr 28, 20163 votes

Ironically, the system is driving me away from playing support.

I'm a support main, but I don't want to play support every game. I've taken to practicing my top mechanics and am planning to go jungle/top most of my games just to avoid the repetition.

Which is a shame, since I really do love support. But this season has been rather unkind to support mains that want to, y'know, not play the role every single game.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 28, 20163 votes

I hear you. I wish they had some sort of legitimate role randomizer. Surprise roles only work if you're not the one setting them in the first place.

NeyakApr 27, 20162 votes

I totally agree with the OP. In fact, it used to be rewarding to "fill" because it meant that it increased the chance that every member of the team got a role that they wanted. As a "fill" I sacrifice my ability to specialize (so I am not likely as good a jungler as a jungle main at the same ELO) and in return I increase the chance of good team chemistry. Now, there is no such advantage since everybody's role is pre-assigned and whether or not anybody "filled" is utterly irrelevant for the game itself. And it used to be the case for me that "fill" meant support maybe 40% of the time and other roles 60% (with mid and top less likely than adc or jungle), though I suspect that would vary depending on ELO/division. Now if I want to play a variety of roles I have to pick different ones and get punished for it (by not specializing) but without the payoff for the team.

lofi n chillhopApr 27, 20162 votes

here's something I thought I'd do if I ever wanted more variety:

start one game with two roles selected. whichever two is fine.
then whichever you don't get that game, make primary for the next, and select as secondary one that you haven't done in a while.
then repeat that second step

TripprApr 28, 20162 votes

that's because** dynamic queue caters to the casual noob **that just locks in without counter picking or thinking about team comp. -this also makes the queue allot longer. -matches you with bad players. -doesn't encourage any communication in the champ select. -basically dynamic queue ruins everything.

welcome to league of trash 2016.

ZedexApr 28, 20162 votes

So you're complaining that the system is working as it did before ? 90% of the time when fill was called before, you'd usually get support. Perhaps you should try and queue for 2 intended roles, instead of clicking, "give me whats needed" everytime and then complaining about it. Everythings working as intended.

SpecterVonBarenApr 28, 20162 votes

I prided myself on being able to play any role but ADC (God I hate ADC because if I'm ADC then no one is peeling for the ADC) at at least an average level of skill and my ability to conform to what the rest of my team needed was a unique skill. Now everyone is just playing one role with one champ and so that skill is pointless and I'm kinda sick of playing Support despite is being my favorite role.

CithriaCApr 28, 20162 votes

They should just add a random button so people know that fill isn't random. I guess fill is only for shorter que times even though people used to use it for variety.

MISTAFUNKTASTICApr 29, 20162 votes

I also feel like the true "fill" roll is missing. I primarily would "fill" in my ranked games season 4 and 5. TBH it was mostly support then as well, but when individuals weren't guaranteed one of 2 rolls it became very valuable to have a jack-of-all trades in champ select.

I had to adjust my play style accordingly with season 6. But I've recovered well.

I actually laugh when I select "fill" now and do NOT get support. I usually think something broke in queue. :D

NaramielApr 29, 20162 votes

To all the people who are saying it is "working as intended": that is true only in the most shortsighted sense.

If it's just going to be "Support" all the time, there is no reason to pick "Fill" instead of "Support".
The fact that it's Support 90% of the time has caused lots of people who would play Support 35% of the time to stop taking Fill. As a consequence, it's not even really reducing queue times at this point.