The only issue with the new AP items

Nekusen·Apr 8, 2016·3 votes·368 views

Is not utility items being more focused in utility, which makes sense and adds diversity, the problem is they didn't add (yet, maybe they are planning on more items (would like a rioter comment on that)) power-focused items to compensate, which makes for a way weaker late game as even though the items are cheaper, they are less slot efficient in terms of power.

So, is the plan making mages to deal less damage in favor of them being more utility oriented or are more AP damage items are in the oven ?

8 Comments

TehNACHOApr 8, 20163 votes

Well to be frank, it makes sense.

One of the pinnacle weaknesses of Burst is its fall off to massive health pools, something they can't keep up with as the game goes on. As the majority of Mages sit pretty squarely within Burst based parameters, it thus makes sense that they lack the raw punching power to, for example, kill a tank, especially as the game marches on. Focusing on utility also grants these items the strategic niches that the Marksman Update brought to ADC items, which I'd say is better for the long run even if we have to sacrifice raw power in the short term.

Who knows, maybe Riot is planning widespread base damage buffs across the board for Mages as well to balance out the AP loss.

NekusenApr 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well to be frank, it makes sense.

One of the pinnacle weaknesses of Burst is its fall off to massive health pools, something they can't keep up with as the game goes on. As the majority of Mages sit pretty squarely within Burst based parameters, it thus makes sense that they lack the raw punching power to, for example, kill a tank, especially as the game marches on. Focusing on utility also grants these items the strategic niches that the Marksman Update brought to ADC items, which I'd say is better for the long run even if we have to sacrifice raw power in the short term.

Mages already have less tank-killing capabilities compared to ad: item 3135 item 3151 (which requires CC) vs item 3036 item 3033 item 3035 item 3034 item 3071 item 3153 (including mid-tier items as they have the passive as well)

Also, AD assassins aren't exactly lacking in the burst department and even while being in a good spot got item 3147 The problem is that AP assassins that can melt people don't have their build changed by this, the ones that are struggling the most are hit by this more. Like Leblanc for example, that didn't get her itemization changed by this update.

And hence, my question about riot wanting mages to be more about utility or they planning on more items that are about power.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20161 votes

People really seem to forget how Ap scales much harder than AD and how there is less MR in the game than Armor.

I mean sure, you only have item 3135 item 3151 but the tanks only really have item 3102 and item 3065

AP assassins also scale WAY harder than AD assassins because AP in general scales harder.

Khazix is getting at most in the 400 range in AD by late game Katarina can easily hit the 700+ range. These same AP Assasins also have better access to the utility from the mage items selection than AD Assasins do of the ADC items selection since those items tend to not fit them all that well. Conversely, AP items work for AP assasins just fine.

TehNACHOApr 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Mages already have less tank-killing capabilities compared to ad: (which requires CC) vs (including mid-tier items as they have the passive as well)

Yes, that is the point.

It'd be weird to overload a class not designed to kill tanks with items to kill tanks.

It'd be weirder still if the class that is designed to kill tanks would have less options to kill tanks.

{quoted}

Also, AD assassins aren't exactly lacking in the burst department and even while being in a good spot got

Because that tends to be all they offer. Compare Talon to, say, Xerath and assume both have the capability to 100-0 an ADC with ease. There would be virtually no reason to ever pick Talon over Xerath under this assumption, as Xerath offers much more safety from operating from way farther away, more AOE impact for team fighting potential, Stuns and Slows and items that can add on to these utility effects, and a far better strategic niche with his surplus of wave clear and the Magic Damage to balance the ADC's physical damage.

As the majority of AD Assassins are really inferior to Mages in almost all areas other than straight up nuking their target, it would be odd if the AD Assassins were only just comparable to Mages in raw burst potential while still inferior in every other area.

{quoted}

The problem is that AP assassins that can melt people don't have their build changed by this, the ones that are struggling the most are hit by this more. Like for example, that didn't get her itemization changed by this update.

Remember when the Marksman update was passed and for a short amount of time, AD Assassins had some really shitty build paths because all the AD items in the game were tailored for DPS, not Burst? Remember that when the ADC items settled in and got their niches, Riot tossed AD Assassins a bone with Duskblade?

I imagine that once the dust settles and Riot's happy with the Mage update items and their effect on the immobile mages that this class rework is targeting, Riot will revisit other AP variant styles like mobile AP Assassins like Leblanc, and more than likely throw them a bone later down the road just as well.

{quoted}

And hence, my question about riot wanting mages to be more about utility or they planning on more items that are about power.

And so, my answer. To sum up, AP Mages aren't meant to kill tanks, so it's not weird they don't get as many tank busting options. Compare a Utility Heavy Mage to a Burst orientated AD Assassin and it should be obvious which one probably deserves better raw Burst potential. If you're worried about AP Assassins or other AP build path champions, then just remember the Marksman update and Duskblade. I can not assure you that AP itemization will not be a clusterfuck when it gets released on live, but I can promise that in the long run, these changes are most likely for the better.

NekusenApr 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes, that is the point.

It'd be weird to overload a class not designed to kill tanks with items to kill tanks.

It'd be weirder still if the class that is designed to kill tanks would have less options to kill tanks.

Because that tends to be all they offer. Compare Talon to, say, Xerath and assume both have the capability to 100-0 an ADC with ease. There would be virtually no reason to ever pick Talon over Xerath under this assumption, as Xerath offers much more safety from operating from way farther away, more AOE impact for team fighting potential, Stuns and Slows and items that can add on to these utility effects, and a far better strategic niche with his surplus of wave clear and the Magic Damage to balance the ADC's physical damage.

Only Xerath isn't an assassin, under your assumption, there is no reason to pick Xerath over Leblanc . You need to consider Talon has stealth and scales with autoattacks as well, plus, as said, he is actually an assassin. Hell, Karthus under you assumption would offer "safety" and be better than Talon. But im not getting the general point here, assassins counter adcs, tanks counter assassins, adcs counter tanks, and mages... are there.

As the majority of AD Assassins are really inferior to Mages

The current meta isn't showing that, mid lane seeing almost no mages, basically all AD assassins and adcs, i've even be seeing games in which the only AP champion is the support.

in almost all areas other than straight up nuking their target, it would be odd if the AD Assassins were only just comparable to Mages in raw burst potential while still inferior in every other area.

the current meta didn't get the memo, the only advantage AP mages could have over AD assassins is range, and that's not even true as in various cases where AD assassins have lots of ranged abilities to compete.

Remember when the Marksman update was passed and for a short amount of time, AD Assassins had some really shitty build paths because all the AD items in the game were tailored for DPS, not Burst? Remember that when the ADC items settled in and got their niches, Riot tossed AD Assassins a bone with Duskblade?

when item 3147 was released AD assassins were already in a very good spot, the difference with dps and burst is mostly in their kits, there were already a nice variety of raw AD items that didn't give attack speed. But i want to clarify, im not vouching for ADs to get screwed or anything (i myself use ad, ap, tanks, sups, everything), my question here was about the direction mages were taking.

I imagine that once the dust settles and Riot's happy with the Mage update items and their effect on the immobile mages that this class rework is targeting, Riot will revisit other AP variant styles like mobile AP Assassins like Leblanc, and more than likely throw them a bone later down the road just as well.

If you're worried about AP Assassins or other AP build path champions, then just remember the Marksman update and Duskblade. I can not assure you that AP itemization will not be a clusterfuck when it gets released on live, but I can promise that in the long run, these changes are most likely for the better.

What i said about AD assassins is that they are the ones getting saved from this, they get their power to not be lowered as their builds remain unchanged. The issue is, only Leblanc and such are currently being currently used, lowering the power of the other mages would seem counterproductive unless they want to make them more utility focused, are planning on more items or they are planning a heavy, all along the board, AP scaling rework on every mage and support.

Kai GuyApr 8, 20163 votes

I would like to point out with the mage rework its not unreasonable to expect that we see some across the board ratios on Mage champs being amped up, which would thus seperate them from a support and the lower AP per item would require mages to have gold to matter thus helping separate the support and Ability powered caster who got mad they missed mid so they did flat ap items support... but hey ice queen = support bruh.

NekusenApr 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I would like to point out with the mage rework its not unreasonable to expect that we see some across the board ratios on Mage champs being amped up, which would thus seperate them from a support and the lower AP per item would require mages to have gold to matter thus helping separate the support and Ability powered caster who got mad they missed mid so they did flat ap items support... but hey ice queen = support bruh.

This would make sense, but they would have to tweak a crap ton of numbers, i mean, they would have to change the numbers for every mage and almost every support, 5 (4 spells + passive) each.

The only sad thing with this is making the meta more rigid, so i hope that if they do this, at least we end up in a more healthy one with more viable picks for each role.

Kai GuyApr 8, 20161 votes

Not if they want the supports to have lower damage. Lots of the items have utility built in. When they did the adc they did 9 items changed? Then they did semi large reworks on Caitlyn Corki Graves MissFortune KogMaw Quinn Plus they touched Ashe Draven Ezreal Jinx Kalista Lucian Sivir Twitch Tristana Varus Vayne and.. i dont know if you count him they also adjusted Urgot that's 17-18 champs.